The Torah Has Not Been Abolished

bbyrd009 · Jun 14, 2019

ha and white ppl gee just cant figure out how anyone can even like rap lol
where did it ever come from narf

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
It is you who needs to reread Acts 15, for the council of Jerusalem did not negate the truth that the Torah still needs to be obeyed, which is why they said, "for Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues", but the reason they only repeated certain specific aspects of the Torah is because those were matters of the Torah that the Gentiles then commonly disobeyed, so rather than burden them with reading them the entire Torah again that they already heard, they only reminded them of what was important for them to know right away regarding the Torah,

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.
For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Shabbath.
Acts 15:19-21

You forgot to read Acts 15:6-12 and also this: Acts 15:28-29--->“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Yes--the reading of Torah is important to show what sin is, but Torah observance was not at all required of the Gentiles from the beginning. You may know Torah well, but it seems that you could brush up a bit on what the Brit Chadashah teaches. I find that to be a problem with many Messianic Jews.

cgneustar · Jun 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
You forgot to read Acts 15:6-12 and also this: Acts 15:28-29--->“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Yes--the reading of Torah is important to show what sin is, but Torah observance was not at all required of the Gentiles from the beginning. You may know Torah well, but it seems that you could brush up a bit on what the Brit Chadashah teaches. I find that to be a problem with many Messianic Jews.

Tell me, do you suppose that the anointing did not want to burden them with "you shall not murder" and "you shall not steal" mentioned in the Torah as well, which are clearly not mentioned in these "essentials" mentioned by the council of Jerusalem? It never ceases to amaze me how the blind refuse to see the obvious truth, because fundamentally they do not want to obey the commands of the Torah, so they make themselves believe illogical lies to justify their own disobedience.

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
Tell me, do you suppose that the anointing did not want to burden them with "you shall not murder" and "you shall not steal" mentioned in the Torah as well, which are clearly not mentioned in these "essentials" mentioned by the council of Jerusalem? It never ceases to amaze me how the blind refuse to see the obvious truth, because fundamentally they do not want to obey the commands of the Torah, so they make themselves believe illogical lies to justify their own disobedience.

Believers generally EXCEED the demands of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments are we required to love and pray for those who have declared themselves to be our enemies and who persecute us--yet Jesus told us that we must do so. In satisfying the command to love God and our fellow man, Jesus Himself said that it was the summary of the Law. It isn't that I have the desire to disobey, it is that obedience to the 613 laws of Judaism are NOT required of us. Would I continue to observe a 25 mph speed limit (as in a school zone) even where the speed limit is 80? The Gentiles were already under Roman Law which prohibited murder and stealing--they weren't completely immoral and lawless, as the Canaanites were. The Apostle Paul noted in the Book of Romans, that the Gentiles often obeyed the law instinctively.

cgneustar · Jun 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Believers generally EXCEED the demands of the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in the Ten Commandments are we required to love and pray for those who have declared themselves to be our enemies and who persecute us--yet Jesus told us that we must do so. In satisfying the command to love God and our fellow man, Jesus Himself said that it was the summary of the Law. It isn't that I have the desire to disobey, it is that obedience to the 613 laws of Judaism are NOT required of us. Would I continue to observe a 25 mph speed limit (as in a school zone) even where the speed limit is 80? The Gentiles were already under Roman Law which prohibited murder and stealing--they weren't completely immoral and lawless, as the Canaanites were. The Apostle Paul noted in the Book of Romans, that the Gentiles often obeyed the law instinctively.

You are in error, the command to love our neighbor as ourselves did not come from the Messiah, it came from the Torah, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", and we are commanded to love our enemies not because loving our enemies replaces or discards the commands of the Torah, but because our true enemy is Satan, not foreign nations that are all in subjection to the same common enemy of all men, which is Satan. As such, the Torah is not "613 commands", because not all commands of the Torah came in the form of "you shall not" or "you shall", some came in the form of stories, like the passage of Onan, which reveals contraception and masturbation to be evil in the form of a story. And finally, the laws of man are not the laws of God. God requires that his Law be obeyed, not the laws of man. Now, if the laws of men correlate with the laws of God, such as, "you shall not murder", which most if not all nations command in their laws, then the law of man must certainly be obeyed, because it is also the law of God, but if the law of man says, "you shall honor homosexual marriages", then you must break the law of man, because it breaks the law of God, which says, "a man shall not lie with a man as he does a woman". God does not concern himself with speed limits and red lights, if of course your actions do not put others in true danger, for the Law of God does indeed command, "you shall but a railing over the roof of your house", which implies having concern for the safety of others, which is why the laws of the Gentiles in many cases indiscriminately end up fulfilling the Law of God, because it is obvious within the consciences of all men what is good and what is evil as revealed by the Torah of God. Even so, the Torah is not just knowledge of good and evil, but knowledge of how to become set apart from everyone else, through commands of the Torah related to beards, tallit, tzitzit, tefillin, which were given for set-apartness, like a police officer sets himself apart from other ordinary citizens with a uniform. Without set-apartness no one can see God, because it is commanded by God. This is not difficult to understand.

Earburner · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
It is you who needs to reread Acts 15, for the council of Jerusalem did not negate the truth that the Torah still needs to be obeyed, which is why they said, "for Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues", but the reason they only repeated certain specific aspects of the Torah is because those were matters of the Torah that the Gentiles then commonly disobeyed, so rather than burden them with reading them the entire Torah again that they already heard, they only reminded them of what was important for them to know right away regarding the Torah,

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.
For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Shabbath.
Acts 15:19-21

Since you do have "Moses",
then HEED the words of Paul, talking to the Jews.
IOW's, stay "Jewish" and leave the Gentiles alone, who have turned to God through Jesus!!

Acts 15[19] Wherefore my sentence [decree] is, that we trouble not them [with Moses], which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.
.
If you only knew of how much that decree was a
" put down" against the "Judaizers", you would abandon Moses in a flash, and run to Jesus, who IS YOUR Messiah, and NOT Moses!

Earburner · Jun 14, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
now yall maybe do yourselves a favor and lissen just a little before you say any more ok. plus you get to dance and everything
ha fido is bouncing off the walls herenow lol
doing that tearing around the house thing

Continue listening to "snoop" and "Run DMC". They speak the language for your day. Meanwhile, I will listen to those who speak about Jesus for my day.

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
You are in error, the command to love our neighbor as ourselves did not come from the Messiah, it came from the Torah, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself",

Did you really think that I did not know that? But, in any case, I am called to obey the Living Torah--Yeshua and He speaks to His own through His Spirit within them. I quoted the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:28-29 to you. You are the one who is in error.

and we are commanded to love our enemies not because loving our enemies replaces or discards the commands of the Torah, but because our true enemy is Satan, not foreign nations that are all in subjection to the same common enemy of all men, which is Satan.

I agree.

As such, the Torah is not "613 commands", because not all commands of the Torah came in the form of "you shall not" or "you shall", some came in the form of stories, like the passage of Onan, which reveals contraception and masturbation to be evil in the form of a story.

Yes, I understand this but merely cited the 613 laws as an example.

And finally, the laws of man are not the laws of God.

I did not say that they were equivalent--but noted that there would have been no need to talk about murder or stealing, as the Gentiles were already well aware of the Roman prohibitions against the same.

God requires that his Law be obeyed, not the laws of man. Now, if the laws of men correlate with the laws of God, such as, "you shall not murder", which most if not all nations command in their laws, then the law of man must certainly be obeyed, because it is also the law of God, but if the law of man says, "you shall honor homosexual marriages", then you must break the law of man, because it breaks the law of God, which says, "a man shall not lie with a man as he does a woman".

And did you not think I understand this as well? That teaching is underscored in Acts 5:29.

God does not concern himself with speed limits and red lights, if of course your actions do not put others in true danger, for the Law of God does indeed command, "you shall but a railing over the roof of your house", which implies having concern for the safety of others, which is why the laws of the Gentiles in many cases indiscriminately end up fulfilling the Law of God, because it is obvious within the consciences of all men what is good and what is evil as revealed by the Torah of God. Even so, the Torah is not just knowledge of good and evil, but knowledge of how to become set apart from everyone else, through commands of the Torah related to beards, tallit, tzitzit, tefillin, which were given for set-apartness, like a police officer sets himself apart from other ordinary citizens with a uniform. Without set-apartness no one can see God, because it is commanded by God. This is not difficult to understand.

Those who are set apart in the Church are distinguished by their behavior--not outward appearance. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18--->"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, 'I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty'.” 1 Timothy 1:8-11--->"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted."

bbyrd009 · Jun 14, 2019

Earburner said:
Continue listening to "snoop" and "Run DMC". They speak the language for your day. Meanwhile, I will listen to those who speak about Jesus for my day.

Oh you misconscrew me wadr; i hate that kind of music too. That is the point. Fwiw i like Benny Goodman, certain harp players, etc

cgneustar · Jun 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Did you really think that I did not know that? But, in any case, I am called to obey the Living Torah--Yeshua and He speaks to His own through His Spirit within them. I quoted the Holy Spirit in Acts 15:28-29 to you. You are the one who is in error.

I agree.

Yes, I understand this but merely cited the 613 laws as an example.

I did not say that they were equivalent--but noted that there would have been no need to talk about murder or stealing, as the Gentiles were already well aware of the Roman prohibitions against the same. And did you not think I understand this as well? That teaching is underscored in Acts 5:29.

Those who are set apart in the Church are distinguished by their behavior--not outward appearance. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18--->"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, 'I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty'.” 1 Timothy 1:8-11--->"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted."

If outward appearance did not matter, then Paul would not have commanded wives to cover their heads in obedience to the Torah, which says, "and he shall rule over you", by which the head covering is the sign of that submission that the Torah mentions. You greatly err in your understanding of the truth, and rather than obey the Torah through belief in Yeshuah, you discard the Torah, and use mere belief in Yeshuah as justification for lawlessness, as if the Messiah promulgated lawlessness, when quite the contrary, the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah", and "whoever discards the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens". I have said enough to prove that what I am saying is the truth. Do whatever is your prerogative to do, and believe whatever is your prerogative to believe, your condemnation will be your problem, not mine, I at least warned you, and my hands are clean from any guilt by not speaking out against people promulgating lawlessness and false teaching.

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
If outward appearance did not matter, then Paul would not have commanded wives to cover their heads in obedience to the Torah

No. If that was the case, Paul would have ordered Christian men to wear tzitzit (as well as the women). (Numbers 15:37-41)

You greatly err in your understanding of the truth, and rather than obey the Torah through belief in Yeshuah, you discard the Torah, and use mere belief in Yeshuah as justification for lawlessness, as if the Messiah promulgated lawlessness, when quite the contrary, the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah", and "whoever discards the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens". I have said enough to prove that what I am saying is the truth. Do whatever is your prerogative to do, and believe whatever is your prerogative to believe, your condemnation will be your problem, not mine, I at least warned you, and my hands are clean from any guilt by not speaking out against people promulgating lawlessness and false teaching.

I do NOT "discard the Torah". I notice that you sidestepped the point I raised about Christians generally exceeding the Ten Commandments. Let me ask you one question: If following the law was so important, why did God permit the Temple to be destroyed? It is impossible to fulfill all of the commands of the Law of Moses without a Temple, and you know it. Rabbinic Judaism came up with the fake "the prayers of believers substitute for Temple worship" but, that was an accommodation to stem the flow of Jews into the Church, after the Temple was destroyed. Did you just come here to harass and "condemn" Christians?

farouk · Jun 14, 2019

Heart2Soul said:
.
My bible says faith without works is dead...

James says so in his Epistle!

Also, Ephesians 2.10 says something comparable.

farouk · Jun 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Please read Acts 15. You are repeating the error of the Judaizers.

1 Corinthians 10.32 makes it clear also that Jews and the church are distinct.

Earburner · Jun 14, 2019

bbyrd009 said:
Oh you misconscrew me wadr; i hate that kind of music too. That is the point. Fwiw i like Benny Goodman, certain harp players, etc

Then why did you post their links?

Earburner · Jun 14, 2019

cgneustar said:
...you discard the Torah, and use mere belief in Yeshuah as justification for lawlessness, as if the Messiah promulgated lawlessness, when quite the contrary, the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah", and "whoever discards the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens".

YES!! The least and the great are in the KoG TOGETHER!!

Now, how long will you talk out of both sides of your mouth, and not realize that through Christ's Sacrifice, ALL manner of sin, common to men, IS FORGIVEN. Mat. 5:20

cgneustar · Jun 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
No. If that was the case, Paul would have ordered Christian men to wear tzitzit (as well as the women). (Numbers 15:37-41) I do NOT "discard the Torah". I notice that you sidestepped the point I raised about Christians generally exceeding the Ten Commandments. Let me ask you one question: If following the law was so important, why did God permit the Temple to be destroyed? It is impossible to fulfill all of the commands of the Law of Moses without a Temple, and you know it. Rabbinic Judaism came up with the fake "the prayers of believers substitute for Temple worship" but, that was an accommodation to stem the flow of Jews into the Church, after the Temple was destroyed. Did you just come here to harass and "condemn" Christians?

He didn't have to tell them, because the Gentiles then were taught by Jews, like Peter and Paul, and would've seen them wear tzitzit and naturally would've done the same. Yet what we have today is a complete abandonment of Torah, Gentiles teaching other Gentiles that the Torah is abolished, and that commands that were obeyed by men of God for thousands of years were suddenly discarded, which is contrary to what the Messiah taught, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "he who sets aside the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens". It boggles my mind how you people do not see nor understand this, but so be it, remain in your blind ignorance, to your own demise. As far as the temple goes, clearly you are unaware that the Messiah became High Priest, thus replacing the Levitical priesthood, for the true temple of God, which is in heaven, which the earthly temple was merely a copy of. That is why with the change in priesthood also came a change in how the shadows of the Torah are fulfilled. I discuss all of this in my bible study, but rather than understand this, you seek reasons to justify your own lawlessness. The Torah Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God

bbyrd009 · Jun 15, 2019

Earburner said:
Then why did you post their links?

Ah well Bc imo the lyrics are telling the story the best way that I could find, usually. I almost never post music Bc I like it here. I mean I liked T Heads as a young adult, still maybe have find memories there, but really I usually prefer silence now tbh.

Phoneman777 · Jun 15, 2019

cgneustar said:
I recently published a bible study on why the Torah of Moses has not been abolished, why it is still necessary, what the Messiah meant when he said "I came to fulfill the Torah", why the Torah will vanish away once this heaven and earth vanishes away, and finally, if indeed the Torah is still binding, why circumcision of the flesh is no longer required, along with observing the appointed times and Shabbaths of the Torah. The Torah Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God

I tried to read your link but the format drives me nuts LOL. Suffice it to say, the Law of Moses (Torah) aka "the handwriting of ordinances that was against us" has been nailed to the Cross. All that stuff about circumcision, land rights, sin offerings, first born redemption offerings, feast days, etc., etc., etc., is gone.

But, is the Bible now devoid of specific PRIME DIVINE DIRECTIVES by which are lives are to be governed, or are we free to "do what thou wilt"? Some say, "just love people is all" - but is loving the unmarried girl who shares my bed sin or not? Is stealing from the rich to give to the poor (as fully sanctioned by the theory of "Natural Law" which is based on mankind's "Unfallen Reason" detailed in several papal encyclicals) sin or not? Am I free to have Satan as my god before the Lord?

Suffice it to say, the Ten Commandments as well as the dietary laws, tithe principles, etc., are found explicitly/implicitly in Scripture before the time of Moses and it is silly to think those are abolished along with the Law of Moses - eating pork, shellfish, unclean creatures will harm you health and eventually kill you; what God wrote with His own finger in stone will "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8).

Lady Crosstalk · Jun 15, 2019

cgneustar said:
He didn't have to tell them, because the Gentiles then were taught by Jews, like Peter and Paul, and would've seen them wear tzitzit and naturally would've done the same.

Then, why did Paul tell the women to wear head coverings? Surely the Jewish women who were teaching them would have been wearing head coverings. (hint: think Priscilla).

Yet what we have today is a complete abandonment of Torah, Gentiles teaching other Gentiles that the Torah is abolished, and that commands that were obeyed by men of God for thousands of years were suddenly discarded, which is contrary to what the Messiah taught, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "he who sets aside the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens".

There are many, many Gentile believers who do NOT discard the teachings of the Tanakh. Yet, there are many "rules" in the Tanakh which do not apply to Gentiles (and sometimes even Israel presently). I notice that you sidestepped my assertion that it is impossible to satisfy all of the commands of the Tanakh/Torah without a sacrificial system being in place. Please don't pretend that my assertion is untrue.

It boggles my mind how you people do not see nor understand this...As far as the temple goes, clearly you are unaware that the Messiah became High Priest...

Any Gentile believer who understands much at all about the faith, understands that Jesus became our "Great High Priest in the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 5:10).

...thus replacing the Levitical priesthood, for the true temple of God, which is in heaven, which the earthly temple was merely a copy of.

Then, why do the latter chapters of Ezekiel maintain that, during the Millennial Kingdom (chapters 40-48 give a VERY detailed description of that time period), the sons of Zadok (a specific subset of the Levitical priesthood) will be the only ones permitted to minister to the Lord at an earthly Temple of the future? Other Levites will be permitted to perform other types of duties in the Temple complex. Please don't dismiss my question with an insult or try to "spiritualize" it away. It is clear that Ezekiel's Temple will be an earthly Temple of the future and that the Levitical priesthood has not been "replaced". I suggest you study the Scriptures a bit more thoroughly.

I discuss all of this in my bible study, but rather than understand this, you seek reasons to justify your own lawlessness. The Torah Has Not Been Abolished | Wisdom of God

That is quite an unfounded accusation, as you can see. You don't seem to have much knowledge of the Brit Chadashah--perhaps you should do a thorough study of it so that your understanding of Messiah and His Kingdom will increase. You are teaching notions which are false.

justbyfaith · Jun 15, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
and it is silly to think those are abolished along with the Law of Moses - eating pork, shellfish, unclean creatures will harm you health and eventually kill you;

While it will certainly be more healthy to abide by the dietary laws set forth in the OT; and while you will also be considered greater in the kingdom if you abide by every law of the OT and also teach men to do so: it should also be clear that dietary laws do not affect salvation in the slightest (if you disobey them you may get to heaven quicker; but disobeying them will not exclude you from the kingdom of heaven).

Every creature of God is good and nothing is to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of the Lord and prayer.

What word of the Lord? Romans 14:14, Luke 11:41, Mark 7:15-19.

The Torah Has Not Been Abolished

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