John 1:1 "let scripture interpret scripture!"

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APAK

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Greetings, APAK.

I understand your argument on the neuter sense of masculine λόγος, but doesn't verse 1 actually provide absolute certainty that it is indeed referring to an animate object with gender? The verse ends with καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος = "and God was the Word." This would force you to prove that θεὸς likewise carries a neuter sense as well. But both our Lord and the apostles referred to Him as "God our Father," which would communicate to me anyway that He is masculine in any language it might be translated.

Blessings in Christ, and hope you are well.
Actually no. And here's why. Your train of logic is wrong for me and I cannot go down that path with you I'm afraid.

Go to the expression before the one you posed. Call the one you gave me, John 1:1c.

And now I am referring to John 1:1b. Even in Greek, this is not accurately translated. John 1:1b would be more precise if it said something like "the word was towards or originated from God." Saying 'the word was with God' leaves it open to many various and even wild interpretations that can lead to filling in the blank that says a male person was with God. And then based on this faulty premise, we can conclude that John 1:1c says, 'God was the word' and therefor that very same male person we call Jesus. This also tells me that the main-stream translation of John 1:1c is 'off.'

Also, John 1:1c is incorrectly translated into English for the Greek language. There is no definite article before God and thus is cannot mean 'God, the Almighty one.' It can mean however 'god,' that I believe the JWs retain for their angel incarnation logic and foundation of faith, or it can mean 'divine', that I prefer. It is more precise. So John 1:1c as you presented should read, and "the word was divine" (of God's nature or Spirit).

You see we also cannot isolate John 1:1b and 1:1c as two independent thoughts or expressions. In fact John 1:1a, b, and c, are three expressions forming one introductory idea, COLLECTIVELY, and then resounded and summed up in John 1:2.

It concerns how God operates or his modus operandi in this world and how he uses his word in this process.

Let me give you my rendition of these verses with minimal extensions of interpretation. And they are all within the bounds of the Greek language script and within context, that also make sense of the rest of Chapter 1 and 1 John Chapter 1 and other areas. The current popular English translation cannot become congruent with John's other writings without making major surgical adjustments or major feats of scripture gymnastics.

John 1:1-2: In the beginning was the word and the word was (towards/from) God and the word was divine (did not originate from any man). The same was in the beginning (towards/from) God.

Simple interpretation of John 1:2: John the Baptist preached the message of the gospel that came from God's Spirit. The spoken message of the gospel preached by John the Baptist was the same one given by God. (IT did not originate from any man! This is what John wanted to foot stomp. The message was a divine message from God himself and thus true and genuine)

Of course, we later read that this same gospel message was echoed and presented through his Son, the Christ, as the voice or the word of his Father.

Blessings,

APAK
PS don't forget, and remember, the 'word' is Grk:'logos' that is always a message, communique a voice of words etc...never a person. You have to fit this into making sense of the prevalent rendering of John 1:1c...impossible!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, apparently you know nothing of what we teach. the son of God is the equal share of God himself, Spirit, in flesh. NOT a BIOLOGICAL BEGOTTEN SON. NOT A SEPARATE SPIRIT EITHER.

yes, God came in flesh. scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". so who came? read it again .... "GOD"... read it again and again. God came, but how? by "sharing" himself in flesh.

now to eliminate the notion of God as a "son" that is seperate and distinct from himself.

Many JW say in John 1:1c the Word is a "god" small case "g" in god. let the bible eliminate this lie. Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand". well the WORD in John 1:1b was "WITH" God. and God clearly states that there is no "god" with him. this is bible clear as day. also God eliminates any other person/God beside him. scripture, Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me".

here God makes it crystal clear that there is no other God and that's with the cap "G" in God, and he makes it crystal clear that there is no other "PERSONS" beside him. meaning there is no God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit as separate and distinct PERSONS. God is very clear. one more to be sure, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any".

well if God know of no other beside himself, then why do you put someone else beside him?..... well. the "Son" is him in flesh, only shared. once more, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isaiah 35:5 "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:6 "Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert".

when did the blind see, the lame walk, and the dumb sing? when the Son came, God, read Isaiah 35:4 again.

see BARNEY we teach that the Son, the only begotten came. it not as you and men teach, but we teach as God the Holy Ghost teach, comparing spiritual things with spiritual, not a BIOLOGICIAL Son, but the Spirit shared in flesh as Son. understand, you the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto you: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. the reason why you cannot understand us is because you're still carnal, listen to yourself, "This is what I mean, you will twist the scriptures to prove your beliefs." instead of taking up the scriptures to reprove me, you resort to vain babbling. if you were spiritual, one you would confirm what we said, or as said take up the scriptures and reprove me of my error.

no you say we "twist" the scriptures. well prove us in error then? but you can't, so your only way out is through vain glory, "you twist the scriptures". first read the scriptures for yourself, and not go on what some man told you about the scriptures. find out for youself the TRUTH. it's not hard, just READ with the Holy Ghost.

now, we suggest you re-read this post for edification. ahh ahh, humm .... don't do that, read the post again...... (smile)

PICJAG.



This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God.+ 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God.+ Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming,+ and now it is already in the world.+

We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us;+ whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us.+ By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.+

7 Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another,+ because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.+ 8 Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.+ 9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son+ into the world so that we might gain life through him.+ 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice*+ for our sins.+

11 Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are also under obligation to love one another.+ 12 No one has seen God at any time.+ If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.+ 13 By this we know that we are remaining in union with him and he in union with us, because he has given his spirit to us. 14 In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as savior of the world.+ 15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son,+God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.+ 16 And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us.+

These scriptures show not only has anyone ever seen God at anytime, but it's those who reject or deny God sent his only Begotten Son as you do, that is part of the Spirit of the antichrist. You do reject that it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh because you believe it was God who became flesh. I don't expect you to agree with me because the scriptures say you won't.
 

101G

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These scriptures show not only has anyone ever seen God at anytime, but it's those who reject or deny God sent his only Begotten Son as you do, that is part of the Spirit of the antichrist.
that's all you got? ... (Smile). John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?".

have I "deny God sent his only Begotten Son?" or is it you saying that. I will ask you one time, DON'T TRY AND PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, OK.".

now Barney, let's see just how BRIGHT you are in understand the Godhead. no more twisting of any scriptures, nor any denying, just scripture.

question, "is the person in John 1:3 is the same person in Isaiah 44:24? yes or no. there is no math involved. your answer please, just a yes or no will do. this will end our conversation. :D

PICJAG.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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GINOLJC,
yes, God came in flesh. scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". so who came? read it again .... "GOD"... read it again and again. God came, but how? by "sharing" himself in flesh.
In this period of Israel history the people were God true servants were able to see “the glory of Jehovah, the splendor of [their] God” when they acknowledge Jehovah’s hand in the amazing transformation of their land which had been destroyed by the Babylonian Empire. Seventy years later God was fulfilling his prophecy of restoration which he had prophesied through his servant Isaiah. But no one actually saw God. There was no God in the flesh here. God true servants simply recognized that it was the True God doing this work of restoration through the leadership of such men as Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah, representatives from all 12 tribes of Israel.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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GINOLJC,
Many JW say in John 1:1c the Word is a "god" small case "g" in god. let the bible eliminate this lie. Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand".

Why could Jehovah say, as recorded at Deuteronomy 32:39, “There are no gods together with me,” when John 1:1 states that “the Word was with God, and the Word was a god”?

Viewed in their proper setting, these texts in no way contradict each other. They are discussing entirely different matters.

At Deuteronomy 32:39, the point being made is that the false gods of the nations have no share with Jehovah in his saving acts. They are unable to deliver their worshipers from disaster. This is evident from the preceding two De 32 verses 37, 38, which read: “Where are their gods, the rock in whom they sought refuge, who used to eat the fat of their sacrifices, to drink the wine of their drink offerings? Let them get up and help you. Let them become a concealment place for you.”

Other parts of this song likewise indicate that these false gods had no share in the expressing of Jehovah’s saving power. With reference to the nation of Israel as represented in its forefather Jacob, De 32 verse 12 says: “Jehovah alone kept leading him, and there was no foreign god along with him.” Apostasy, however, set in among the Israelites, as De 32 verses 16, 17 and 21 tell us: “They began inciting him to jealousy with strange gods; with detestable things they kept offending him. They went sacrificing to demons, not to God, gods whom they had not known, new ones who recently came in, with whom your forefathers were not acquainted. They, for their part, have incited me to jealousy with what is no god.”

Against this background, we can appreciate that none of such false gods were ‘together with Jehovah’ in anything that he did. He alone is the true God, whereas the false gods are an unreality, nonexistent and powerless to help their worshipers in time of calamity.

As for the reference to the Word’s ‘being a god,’ it does not disagree with the statement at Deuteronomy 32:39. Why not? Because the “Word” does not stand in opposition to Jehovah nor is he a rival, as was the case with the false gods. Then, too, in the phrase rendered “the Word was a god,” the term “god” is a predicate noun that describes “the Word.” Says the noted scholar Westcott, coproducer of the famous Westcott and Hort Greek text of the Christian Scriptures: “It describes the nature of the Word and does not identify His Person.” In view of the descriptive nature of the predicate noun for “god” in the original Greek, An American Translation renders John 1:1: “The Word was divine.”* The New World Translation, however, retains the predicate noun and indicates the significance of the omission of the definite article by using the indefinite article.

Being God’s firstborn Son, “the Word” could rightly be described as a “god” or powerful one, even as are God’s other angelic sons at Psalm 8:5. (Compare Hebrews 2:6-8.) But neither the firstborn Son nor the other faithful angelic sons of God stand in opposition to their Creator, or try to equal him or substitute for him, as do false gods. They all recognize that worship is properly directed to Jehovah God alone.—Phil. 2:5, 6; Rev. 19:10.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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GINOLJC,

well if God know of no other beside himself, then why do you put someone else beside him?..... well. the "Son" is him in flesh, only shared. once more, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isaiah 35:5 "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:6 "Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert".

when did the blind see, the lame walk, and the dumb sing? when the Son came, God, read Isaiah 35:4 again PICJAG.

I agree that The True God Jehovah was and is working through his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ and The True God Jehovah did many miracles and saving acts and that The True God Jehovah is fulfilling prophecy through his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ. Does that mean Jesus Christ is the True God Jehovah or that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh? The scriptures say no. If I were to believe that Jesus Christ is God because he raised the dead and caused the blind to see and the lame walk then I would have to believe that some of Jesus Christ Apostles are God in the flesh since some of Jesus Apostles raised the dead and cured the sick and cast out demons. Like I said I agree that God is working through his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ and the True God Jehovah kingdom that he has made his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ king of.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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that's all you got? ... (Smile). John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?".

have I "deny God sent his only Begotten Son?" or is it you saying that. I will ask you one time, DON'T TRY AND PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, OK.".

now Barney, let's see just how BRIGHT you are in understand the Godhead. no more twisting of any scriptures, nor any denying, just scripture.

question, "is the person in John 1:3 is the same person in Isaiah 44:24? yes or no. there is no math involved. your answer please, just a yes or no will do. this will end our conversation. :D

PICJAG.

objects a trinitarian, are you not forgetting what Jesus said to the apostle Philip? What was that? This: “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” (John 14:9, AV) Ah, yes, but that is far different from Jesus’ saying, ‘I am the Father.’ Jesus had just told Philip and the other faithful apostles that he was going away to God his Father; and so how could Jesus in the same breath say that Philip, when looking at Jesus, was looking at the Father? Jesus could not have meant that, for he dissociated God his Father from himself, just as when he said: “Ye believe in God, believe also in me.” (John 14:1, AV) Why the expression “also in me,” if Jesus were God himself? Philip asked Jesus: “Lord, shew us the Father,” and Jesus answered that that was what he had been doing all along, namely, showing them the Father. He had been explaining who his heavenly Father was. He had been showing them what his heavenly Father was like. He imitated his Father. He was like him, so much so that when one saw Jesus it was as if seeing his Father.

By saying: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,” Jesus could not have meant that the apostles were seeing God, the One whom Jesus addressed or spoke of as Father. Many years after Jesus said those words, the apostle John wrote: “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. . . . grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:14, 17, 18, AV) By thus declaring God his Father, by explaining him, by giving an account of him, by being and acting like him, Jesus produced the effect that the apostles, by seeing Jesus, saw God his Father also.

Hence Jesus said to the Jews: “The Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” (John 5:37, AV) But those Jews did see Jesus’ shape and hear his voice. Also, Jesus told them that if they had believed the prophet Moses they would also have believed him; and Jesus knew from Moses’ writings that God had said to Moses up in the mountain: “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.” (Ex. 33:20, AV) But those Jews did see Jesus and live, which proved that Jesus was not God. Consequently John 14:9 also fails to prove that Jesus is God.

So again we note that Jesus never spoke of himself as God or called himself God. He always put himself below God rather than on an equality with God. He put himself in the position of a disciple of God, when Jesus said: “I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” (John 8:28, AV) God was the Teacher of Jesus, and Jesus as a pupil was not above his Teacher, God, nor the equal of Him. Jesus thus classed himself with the other children of God’s organization Zion, concerning whom Jesus said: “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45, AV; Isa. 54:13) As a disciple or pupil of his Father, Jesus learned things from him continually.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the reply, second, lets take this one step at a time. this is in two part
Why could Jehovah say, as recorded at Deuteronomy 32:39, “There are no gods together with me,” when John 1:1 states that “the Word was with God, and the Word was a god”?
it don't, this has been a Scholarly debate for a long time. I have heard all the argument, on both sides. I'm not a Scholar but I can read, and we read in Deuteronomy 32:39 God said there is no "god" with him, well that sealed the deal with me, and he is the final authority. arguing over the Greek, that's for Scholar, and for unlearned children. I'm very confident that the WORD is "GOD", as pointed out before in Isaiah, and here in John 1:1c and 1:3. there is no doubt in my mind who the WORD is. now if the translators made mistakes or not, and we just don't know why and how it was written, that's not my concern, Deuteronomy 32:39 and others scriptures are clear as a bell on this subject. just as the JW in their NWT bible have Jehovah as the one who sent his angel to John in revelation 22:6 but have at Revelation 22:16 Jesus sending his angel to John, was this a mistake?. and that's in the same book in the same chapter, and not in two diffrent testaments. to me the edivence shows he, Jesus is God, and this is confirmed in more of your question to come.
Viewed in their proper setting, these texts in no way contradict each other. They are discussing entirely different matters.
ERROR on your part, the result is the same, "there is no "god" then or now beside him, let the bible make it real clear that no "god" is with or beside him listen,
1 Kings 8:59 "And let these my words, wherewith I have made supplication before the LORD, be nigh unto the LORD our God day and night, that he maintain the cause of his servant, and the cause of his people Israel at all times, as the matter shall require:
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else".

now that's a news flash to all the people of the world. one cannot get any wider that that. this is a bold statement, which only God can make. this message went to everybody. so as I'm concern this case is closed as to a "god" with him. simply put, but the world just got put on notice. that's an attention getter.
I agree that The True God Jehovah was and is working through his Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ
another ERROR on your part, listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".
did you hear God? HIS "OWN" ARM. what did that just tell you? ... it's him, he himself in flesh, not someone else. not some "god" either. that right there eliminates any "god". it is "GOD" himself shared in that flesh body, not some strange "god" .... nor "a" god. see, men make the TRUE God strange to you. this is why many cannot answer the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 question, including you because it eliminates any "god" or "God" with him. why? because he said he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF" when he nade all things. see how the bible, over and over eliminates any "god", or "God" with him. God's own "ARM" is he, himself. he din't work through anyone. my God how can he be any clearer?
Does that mean Jesus Christ is the True God Jehovah or that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh? The scriptures say no. If I were to believe that Jesus Christ is God because he raised the dead and caused the blind to see and the lame walk then I would have to believe that some of Jesus Christ Apostles are God in the flesh since some of Jesus Apostles raised the dead and cured the sick and cast out demons.
you ERROR two times. A. Jesus is God in flesh, scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". since there is only one God do you deny that God is with us? read the scripture again. now, knowing that, question, "how is GOD WITH us". by being in one of the things that we're in ....... a body of flesh. now this, John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth". STOP and think, GOD is with us in flesh, and the WORD is with us in FLESH. you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the one in flesh is GOD, who is the WORD, for remember God is with us. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". and the "WORD" is in flesh. BINGO, the Word is God. again how clear can one get.

now the B. part of your question, "If I were to believe that Jesus Christ is God because he raised the dead and caused the blind to see and the lame walk then I would have to believe that some of Jesus Christ Apostles are God in the flesh since some of Jesus Apostles raised the dead and cured the sick and cast out demons".
did they? no, listen, you know the story, Acts 3:2 "And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple". did Peter and John heal this man? let's hear from their own mouth who healed this lamb man.
Acts 3:12 "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Acts 3:14 "But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 "And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Acts 3:16 "And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

now one more to prove to you who JESUS is. who raised Jesus body from the dead? your Jehovah?... (smile), not hardly. scripture, John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body". NOW, we want you to THINK for a sec. did not the apostle Peter say in, Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses". now can JESUS lie? no, God forbid, did Peter the apostle of Jesus lie? no. so then what's the conclusion? JESUS is "GOD. and he, Jesus is not "a" god, but the almighty God. see how the bible just keep on confirming itself that Jesus is GOD.
what Jesus said to the apostle Philip? What was that? This: “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” (John 14:9, AV) Ah, yes, but that is far different from Jesus’ saying, ‘I am the Father.’ Jesus had just told Philip and the other faithful apostles that he was going away to God his Father; and so how could Jesus in the same breath say that Philip, when looking at Jesus, was looking at the Father?
ANOTHER ERROR ON YOUR PART. the same way he said, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". so the "FATHER" will send? now this, John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
now Barney, put on your thinking cap. who sent the comforter. but befrore you answer that read this. John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". YOU CAN ANSWER IF YOU LIKE ... NOW.
 

101G

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So again we note that Jesus never spoke of himself as God or called himself God
spoke of himself as GOG? let's see,
A. Luke 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

B. John 4:10 "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jeremiah 17:13 "O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters".

C. John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all".
John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world".
now, why did the Lord Jesus say this? the very next verse. John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins".
say what? "for if ye believe not that I am he" who is the he one need to believe in? let the Bible speak. Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I".

my God the Lord Jesus just told you he is GOD. if one cannot see that he's still blind and unregenerated.
How plain can one get? "I AM HE", well I believe.

Now Barney we took our time and answered you point by point of your argument, and answered you clearly. are you going to deny the Lord Jesus as GOD? if you just don't understand just say so, but why go down the path of the unknow in a lie?.

your choice.

PICJAG
 

Hidden In Him

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John 1:1-2: In the beginning was the word and the word was (towards/from) God and the word was divine (did not originate from any man). The same was in the beginning (towards/from) God.

I hate to sound closed-minded because that's not the case with me. But I have a problem with translating πρὸς as "from" in John 1:1-2. This translation is occasionally acceptable in Genitive, but not in Accusative, and both the uses in John 1:1-2 are in the Accusative.

But out of curiosity, what do you do with John's description of Christ as the Word made flesh in v.14?
 

APAK

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I hate to sound closed-minded because that's not the case with me. But I have a problem with translating πρὸς as "from" in John 1:1-2. This translation is occasionally acceptable in Genitive, but not in Accusative, and both the uses in John 1:1-2 are in the Accusative.

But out of curiosity, what do you do with John's description of Christ as the Word made flesh in v.14?

Sure...
Yes, John does say Christ became the word or the expression and voice of God the Father. He reflected his Father’s word precisely on earth, and gained immortality, in his Spirit.

There's a big diff between being or owning the word (expression) of God which would be impossible, and possessing the word of God. Christ did the latter. Christ never owned the thoughts and expression of his Father. They were his own. Christ humbled and yielded his own will and became the word of God as in Rev....

Bless you,

APAK
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Verse 14 says the word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

So it doesn't say that Jesus became the word. It says the word became flesh.

Also, the Baptist says, He existed long before me.
 
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APAK

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Verse 14 says the word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.

So it doesn't say that Jesus became the word. It says the word became flesh.

Also, the Baptist says, He existed long before me.

Yes that's is what I said, Christ became the word (God's own word of course), or God's word became Christ. It was the Father's word indeed and his Son took possession of it since even before his birth.

If you are interested in discussing what you just wrote about what John the Baptist actually said about Christ, let me know. I can give you a clearer explanation I believe.

Bless you,

APAK
 

APAK

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@stunnedbygrace ..I just thought of something you can answer for me and really it is for yourself or you own benefit. Not a test or a loaded question. Just scripture understanding etc....it really makes no difference to me in the end.

First, I presume you believe that in John 1:1, 'the/a beginning...' means the beginning of time or of creation? If this is the case, where do you draw this conclusion? If not, then what does it means to you? Sounds like a simple task although if entrenched in blind religious doctrine for many years it can be difficult to answer and be honest will one's self. You might have heard from someone what it meant and just went with it...?

Blessings to you,

APAK
 

bbyrd009

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Christ never owned the thoughts and expression of his Father. They were his own.
Could you rephrase that? Ty
@stunnedbygrace ..I just thought of something you can answer for me and really it is for yourself or you own benefit. Not a test or a loaded question. Just scripture understanding etc....it really makes no difference to me in the end.

First, I presume you believe that in John 1:1, 'the/a beginning...' means the beginning of time or of creation? If this is the case, where do you draw this conclusion? If not, then what does it means to you? Sounds like a simple task although if entrenched in blind religious doctrine for many years it can be difficult to answer and be honest will one's self. You might have heard from someone what it meant and just went with it...?

Blessings to you,

APAK
And I'm not quite clear on what else in the beginning might have been referring to, iyo?
 

APAK

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Could you rephrase that? Ty

And I'm not quite clear on what else in the beginning might have been referring to, iyo?
Ok, the first part only as I want @stunnedbygrace to have a chance to answer the last part...;)

Christ possessed the word or the expressions and thoughts of his Father. These or the word BECAME Christ's expressions and thoughts over time, completely. Christ never therefore owned the 'word' of his God and Father; he became the voice of his Father as he could do nothing on his own. Christ learned to yield his entire will and his own thoughts became of his complete acceptance of the will and expressions of his Father. ...I guess I might have made a loop...

Bless you,

APAK
 

APAK

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@bbyrd009 ...I see @101G is pointing to one of the source scriptures, without definition. Well I guess I should then expand on it now...

The word (of life) became Christ. Christ literally became the word of life and 'it' was given to him by his Father. Christ became the word of God per scripture.

Even though John does use the metaphor and style of of writing in creation in Genesis, in his opening words of John 1:1, he is really addressing the beginning of the revealed Christ and his acquired word of life of God, of his Father. The beginning therefore was when John the Baptist spoke of the gospel message that was heard, and the coming of the Saviour and Christ's baptism.

As 1 John 1:1 states: What existed from the beginning was the gospel message of the Father given to John the B, and especially Christ who was this living message of gospel from and given by his Father.

As 1 John 1:2 states: We have seen the word of life (Christ) that was the human expression of eternal life for us, that (only came from) only existed with the/HIS FATHER. Without the Father birthing the man Christ and creating the word or expression of life in him, we would be all lost in our sins.

This is the beginning, of things, that the other three gospel reports had in mind and all wrote about. As the title of this thread reads, 'let scripture interpret scripture.'

Blessings,

APAK
 

stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace ..I just thought of something you can answer for me and really it is for yourself or you own benefit. Not a test or a loaded question. Just scripture understanding etc....it really makes no difference to me in the end.

First, I presume you believe that in John 1:1, 'the/a beginning...' means the beginning of time or of creation? If this is the case, where do you draw this conclusion? If not, then what does it means to you? Sounds like a simple task although if entrenched in blind religious doctrine for many years it can be difficult to answer and be honest will one's self. You might have heard from someone what it meant and just went with it...?

Blessings to you,

APAK

Hmm...I drew the conclusion at some point when I read John. I just...saw it. I don't know how else to describe it.

I could just clearly see that John was talking about Jesus, that Jesus was the word, that all of the OT spoke of Him. It was a huge aha moment for me because previous to it, I did not like God but I loved Jesus and I wouldn't speak to God or with God. I even announced all of that to Jesus, lol!
So I was very surprised and baffled when I suddenly saw that John was saying Jesus IS God. So after that, I just...spoke freely with God and didn't have a problem. (Still have some problems with the idea of a trinity though, but no problem with understanding that God and Jesus are one God.)
 

101G

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As 1 John 1:1 states: What existed from the beginning was the gospel message of the Father given to John the B, and especially Christ who was this living message of gospel from and given by his Father.
first thanks for the reply, second your first ERROR, listen 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life"

Christ was not from the beginning, NOT CHRIST. but the gospel message was not given to christ, but is CHRIST. scripture, Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 1:2 "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee".

now APAK who is the one that sent his messenger (john the Baptist) before "HIS" face, as it is written. was it the LORD all caps or the Lord?.

looking to hear your answer.

PICJAG.