The Latest on Calvin

Nancy · Jun 16, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Yes. It does have a lot of pages.
And the more one reads, the more distressful it becomes.

If you want to know what was REALLY said, you, too, should be reading the institutes. I went from one denomination to another. Before doing so, I made sure I knew the doctrine of the one I was going to. I hope you did the same.

Here is what is written, regarding the vessels to destruction:

He then argues thus, — There are vessels prepared for destruction, that is, given up and appointed to destruction: they are also vessels of wrath, that is, made and formed for this end, that they may be examples of God’s vengeance and displeasure. If the Lord bears patiently for a time with these, not destroying them at the first moment, but deferring the judgment prepared for them, and this in order to set forth the decisions of his severity, that others may be terrified by so dreadful examples, and also to make known his power, to exhibit which he makes them in various ways to serve; and, further, that the amplitude of his mercy towards the elect may hence be more fully known and more brightly shine forth; — what is there worthy of being reprehended in this dispensation? But that he is silent as to the reason, why they are vessels appointed to destruction, is no matter of wonder. He indeed takes it as granted, according to what has been already said, that the reason is hid in the secret and inexplorable counsel of God; whose justice it behoves us rather to adore than to scrutinize.

source: John Calvin's commentary on Romans 9:23
https://books.google.it/books

And WHY does God do this?
As we read above for the following reasons:

God DEFERS the judgement of destruction:
1. To set a dreadful example for others.
2. To make them examples of God's vengeance and displeasure.
3. To make known His power.
4. To exhibit in which he makes them in different ways to serve.
5. So that His mercy to the elect may more brightly shine forth.

The above is NOT the God of the bible,
You misrepresent our God.

Who is love:
1 John 4:8b

Who is Merciful:
Mark 6:34

Who is just:
Acts 10:34-35

For reals Fran! If God is Love, Merciful and Just then, is it the belief of Calvinists that God is only SOMETIMES these things. If that is what they believe then...that makes God one who "changes" and we know that He NEVER changes. His character is His character. ♥

GodsGrace · Jun 16, 2019

Nancy said:
For reals Fran! If God is Love, Merciful and Just then, is it the belief of Calvinists that God is only SOMETIMES these things. If that is what they believe then...that makes God one who "changes" and we know that He NEVER changes. His character is His character. ♥

Great point!

Helen · Jun 16, 2019

OzSpen · Jun 16, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
The Latest on Calvin

Are you referring to #107? If not, please tell me the #.

SovereignGrace · Jun 16, 2019

OzSpen said:
Are you referring to #107? If not, please tell me the #.

Yes. That’s the post.

stunnedbygrace · Jun 16, 2019

SovereignGrace said:
But not every single solitary person has heard the gospel before they died.

Can we have their names please? And can we also havewhatever proof you can amass that there was no last minute transaction between them and Jesus on their deathbed? But mostly, can we have their names, since you know about them?

GodsGrace · Jun 16, 2019

OzSpen said:
Are you referring to #107? If not, please tell me the #.

Hi Oz,
Yes. That's the post.
@SovereignGrace seems to believe the world started when the bible was printed.
Oh. And that maybe that's when GOD started to exist too.

OzSpen · Jun 16, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Hi Oz,

No need to challenge me.
@SovereignGrace doesn't seem to understand that there was a time when the bible was not written...
A time when Jesus had not been born yet to reveal God's final plan of salvation to us...

I was discussing Romans 1:19-20 and how men have always been aware of God in nature and in all the creation. Men have always had the opportunity to believe in God or not believe in God.

If a person's spirit is in tune with God's spirit, then that person has faith in God and faith is what's necessary to be saved.

Even before the bible...
Even before Jesus....

This was my point.
I mentioned the American Indian and the reply was that they believed in the great spirit. Well, the Great Spirit was God.

They did not have access to either the bible or someone to preach the gospel.
And yet...they knew about God Almighty.

GG,

I agree with you concerning God's revelation of Himself in creation, according to Rom 1:19-20 (NIV), which states:

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So not one person in the universe throughout human history will be able to state they didn't know God existed. They 'are without excuse' when they stand before God for judgment.

However, this understanding of the existence of God is not salvific. We cannot find salvation in nature without the revelation through Scripture and Christ.

We also know that God reveals Himself to all people through their consciences:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares (Rom 2:14-16 NIV).

Back to the OP: 'The latest on Calvin'. The latest on John Calvin is the old Calvin, found in his writings and especially in his systematic theology, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. I'm in the midst of researching an article: 'Did John Calvin support TULIP?' Even though TULIP was formulated at the Synod of Dort (1618-1619) and Calvin lived from 1509-1564, if Calvin were alive at Dort would he have supported its TULIP theology - based on his own writings?

The evidence I'm finding is, yes, although he sometimes puts limited atonement into similar but different language.

Oz

GodsGrace · Jun 16, 2019

OzSpen said:
GG,

I agree with you concerning God's revelation of Himself in creation, according to Rom 1:19-20 (NIV), which states:

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So not one person in the universe throughout human history will be able to state they didn't know God existed. They 'are without excuse' when they stand before God for judgment.

However, this understanding of the existence of God is not salvific. We cannot find salvation in nature without the revelation through Scripture and Christ.

We also know that God reveals Himself to all people through their consciences:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares (Rom 2:14-16 NIV).

Back to the OP: 'The latest on Calvin'. The latest on John Calvin is the old Calvin, found in his writings and especially in his systematic theology, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. I'm in the midst of researching an article: 'Did John Calvin support TULIP?' Even though TULIP was formulated at the Synod of Dort (1618-1619) and Calvin lived from 1509-1564, if Calvin were alive at Dort would he have supported its TULIP theology - based on his own writings?

The evidence I'm finding is, yes, although he sometimes puts limited atonement into similar but different language.

Oz

Wow. That's a big job,,,but a very interesting one.

Every now and then I read a little bit of the Institutes,,,I've also read your articles and, of course, I agree with all...so much information on so many topics...
https://truthchallenge.one/

As to the above,,,,yes, of course salvation is not found in nature.
I explained here somewhere how men have always been saved by faith,,,in the N.T. and in the O.T. and by the knowledge of God in the spirit of man.

It's like today, I'd say. Some see creation and know there must be a higher power, but they do not having saving faith in that power. I believe Romans makes clear that in all of history....man has had an opportunity to be saved,,,you just say this much better than I can! But you said what I mean.

OzSpen · Jun 16, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Wow. That's a big job,,,but a very interesting one.

Every now and then I read a little bit of the Institutes,,,I've also read your articles and, of course, I agree with all...so much information on so many topics...
https://truthchallenge.one/

As to the above,,,,yes, of course salvation is not found in nature.
I explained here somewhere how men have always been saved by faith,,,in the N.T. and in the O.T. and by the knowledge of God in the spirit of man.

It's like today, I'd say. Some see creation and know there must be a higher power, but they do not having saving faith in that power. I believe Romans makes clear that in all of history....man has had an opportunity to be saved,,,you just say this much better than I can! But you said what I mean.

GG,

I was in discussions with a bloke on a secular Aussie blog about God's existence and I mentioned God's existence seen by the things in nature. He denied it flat: 'You are only telling me that because you are a Christian'. I began to talk with him about God's plan in taking a eucalyptus flower to a seed to a large gum tree where koalas need the leaves. I have a monstrous gum tree at the back of my property that is a pain as the falling leaves clog my villa guttering and I need it cleaned about every 4 months.

I sometimes use this example to show the plan/design God placed into creation.

Eucalyptus flowers (which need bees to polinate):

Eucalyptus (gum) seed/pod:

As it grows, the bark peels:

It can grow with some varieties into large gum trees:

Koalas need eucalyptus leaves for food:

Gum tree root system:

'About 90 percent of a eucalyptus tree’s roots grow in the top 12 inches [28cm] of soil. This shallow root system grows rapidly, and along with a strong taproot, the lateral roots are vital to keeping a eucalyptus tree upright'. This shallow root system at the rear of my property has had a devastating impact in the native trees I was trying to grow. It killed them.

To grow, the tree needs rain or water. Where does the rain come from?

In spite of this plan or design for the gum tree that demonstrates God's existence, the anti-God antagonist is blind to what God does in creation.

Oz

SovereignGrace · Jun 16, 2019

OzSpen said:
However, this understanding of the existence of God is not salvific. We cannot find salvation in nature without the revelation through Scripture and Christ.

Thank you! That’s be my point all along. Natural revelation does not tell us the Christ came a died and was resurrected three days later, ascended to the Father, and intercedes for His children.

OzSpen · Jun 16, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Wow. That's a big job,,,but a very interesting one.

Every now and then I read a little bit of the Institutes,,,I've also read your articles and, of course, I agree with all...so much information on so many topics...
Truth Challenge

As to the above,,,,yes, of course salvation is not found in nature.
I explained here somewhere how men have always been saved by faith,,,in the N.T. and in the O.T. and by the knowledge of God in the spirit of man.

It's like today, I'd say. Some see creation and know there must be a higher power, but they do not having saving faith in that power. I believe Romans makes clear that in all of history....man has had an opportunity to be saved,,,you just say this much better than I can! But you said what I mean.

GG,

I was in discussions with a bloke on a secular Aussie blog about God's existence and I mentioned God's existence seen by the things in nature. He denied it flat: 'You are only telling me that because you are a Christian'. I began to talk with him about God's plan in taking a eucalyptus flower to a seed to a large gum tree where koalas need the leaves. I have a monstrous gum tree at the back of my property that is a pain as the falling leaves clog my villa guttering and I need it cleaned about every 4 months.

I sometimes use this example to show the plan/design God placed into creation.

Eucalyptus flowers (which need bees to polinate):

Eucalyptus (gum) seed/pod:

As it grows, the bark peels:

It can grow into a large gum tree. Not all gum trees are this size. For those of you who are tree huggers, try hugging this one:

Koalas need eucalyptus leaves for food:

Gum tree root system:

'About 90 percent of a eucalyptus tree’s roots grow in the top 12 inches [28cm] of soil. This shallow root system grows rapidly, and along with a strong taproot, the lateral roots are vital to keeping a eucalyptus tree upright'. The shallow root system associated with the tree at the rear of my property has had a devastating impact on the native trees I was trying to grow. It killed them.

To grow, the tree needs rain or water. Where does the rain come from?

In spite of this plan or design for the gum tree that demonstrates God's existence, the anti-God antagonist was blind to what God does in creation.

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 16, 2019

GodsGrace said:
What did I say that makes you ask this??
I believe we are saved by faith only.
Ephesians 2:8
By the grace of God, through the instrument of faith.

GG,

I wanted some clarification because of the debate between you and SG.

Oz

Windmillcharge · Jun 17, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Maybe because Calvin is to blame?
The inquisition was also decided by the secular courts....
Did this excuse the Christians that used the inquisition?

John Calvin presented evidence AGAINST Servetus.
Without this evidence S would never have been burned at the stake.
What Calvin did was to ask that he be beheaded instead...
BUT knowing full well that the penalty was burning.

We should all stop protecting what cannot be protected.
Calvin was a cold and unloving person.
He had no spirituality in him as far as I can tell.
He showed no love for anyone....and so he taught that God also had no love for His creation.

God looked at His creation and said that it was good.
Calvin looks at creation and says that it's depraved,,,totally.

Who is right?

God gave to man a remedy when he fell.
Genesis 3:15

As far as Calvin is concerned, there is no remedy and we're at the mercy of a God that is without love.

That same remedy was denied by Servetus.
God's punishment for All who deny him is eternal banishment. Those who condem Calvin forget how strict God is with unrepentant sinners.

Just as critics of Calvin ignore the facts that Geneva called him to serve them and that he worked himself to death in their service.

Enoch111 · Jun 17, 2019

Windmillcharge said:
Those who condemn Calvin forget how strict God is with unrepentant sinners.

No Christian has been given the right to murder any other person for their false beliefs. That's the bottom line, even if Servetus was promoting heresies.

So Calvin should be rightly condemned by all for murder or accessory to murder (including the Calvinists). The only response to a heretic is excommunication (or removal from the fellowship of other Christians).

APAK · Jun 17, 2019

OzSpen said:
Windmill,

In August 1553, Servetus, the anti-Trinitarian heretic, travelled to Geneva. There he was recognized and at Calvin’s request he was imprisoned by the city magistrates.

The trial of Michael Servetus lasted until October 1553 when the Council of Geneva condemned him to death. Servetus was burned at the stake on October 27, 1553. The Calvinists and the Catholics both wanted him dead, but the Calvinists got to him first. Who was the Calvinist who reported him in Geneva? Calvin!

The condemnation and death of Michael Servetus has been a black mark on John Calvin’s reputation for centuries. Was the burning of Servetus justified, or was it cold-blooded murder? God will judge. In contemplating the history of Calvin and Servetus, it is good to remember the following facts:

– The laws in Switzerland made heresy punishable by death; Servetus’ death was thus justified in the eyes of the Geneva Council. Plus, the councils of Berne, Zurich, Basle, and Schaffhausen were consulted, and they all encouraged the verdict and punishment.

– Calvin agreed with the sentence of death passed on Servetus; however, he urged that in mercy Servetus be executed by the sword, not by burning. The council rejected his suggestion.

– Michael Servetus was the only heretic ever executed in Geneva in Calvin’s lifetime (Source: Got Questions).

I consider it is naive to state that Calvin 'had very little influence over the civil courts' when it was Calvin who reported Servetus to the magistrates.

Oz

I little off topic concerning Calvinism....yes, the laws for heresy was death, as in other countries of Europe for not following the Pope's, the emperor's and even Luther's and Calvin's Trinity doctrine. Yes, Servetus said in his book, 'Errors of the Trinity,' the gods of the Trinitarians were a 3-headed monster and a deception of the devil. Both Protestants and Catholics found his work blasphemous, and the emperor banned it.

Anyway, that is why in the early 17th Century, many of these so-called heretics from Switzerland, Austria and Germany especially, moved out to America and even participated in the plantations of Virginia, the founding people of faith in the US. They have all but have been forgotten....for their non-Trinitarian belief and their hard work and survival skills in helping building a ''new' country.

Blessings,

APAK

OzSpen · Jun 18, 2019

APAK said:
I little off topic concerning Calvinism....yes, the laws for heresy was death, as in other countries of Europe for not following the Pope's, the emperor's and even Luther's and Calvin's Trinity doctrine. Yes, Servetus said in his book, 'Errors of the Trinity,' the gods of the Trinitarians were a 3-headed monster and a deception of the devil. Both Protestants and Catholics found his work blasphemous, and the emperor banned it.

Anyway, that is why in the early 17th Century, many of these so-called heretics from Switzerland, Austria and Germany especially, moved out to America and even participated in the plantations of Virginia, the founding people of faith in the US. They have all but have been forgotten....for their non-Trinitarian belief and their hard work and survival skills in helping building a ''new' country.

Blessings,

APAK

APAK,

However, from a biblical NT view, is there teaching that demonstrates Christians should endorse the secular govts in capital punishment of non-Trinitarian heretics? Yes, there is biblical teaching on what to do with those who proclaim heresy/false teaching (2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV):

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Throughout the NT, I do not find any endorsement of what Calvin did in agreeing to the capital punishment of the heretic, Servetus.

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 18, 2019

Windmillcharge said:
That same remedy was denied by Servetus.
God's punishment for All who deny him is eternal banishment. Those who condem Calvin forget how strict God is with unrepentant sinners.

Just as critics of Calvin ignore the facts that Geneva called him to serve them and that he worked himself to death in their service.

Why are you justifying the ungodly actions of Calvin?

OzSpen · Jun 18, 2019

Nancy said:
For reals Fran! If God is Love, Merciful and Just then, is it the belief of Calvinists that God is only SOMETIMES these things. If that is what they believe then...that makes God one who "changes" and we know that He NEVER changes. His character is His character. ♥

Nancy,

Love, mercy and justice are only three of the attributes of God. There are many more. See: 'Attributes of God'.

I agree with you that extreme Calvinists (called supralapsarians) who preach that God loves only the elect, provides unconditional election to these people, and assigns the rest of humanity to damnation is more like a monster than the Almighty God.

Oz

Enoch111 · Jun 18, 2019

OzSpen said:
I agree with you that extreme Calvinists (called supralapsarians) who preach that God loves only the elect, provides unconditional election to these people, and assigns the rest of humanity to damnation is more like a monster than the Almighty God.

Well that is not the doctrine of only extreme Calvinists. That is Reformed Theology as expressed in their confessions (statements) of faith. Many of those who go to Reformed or Presbyterian churches may not even have read these confessions and digested them.

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