Is 1 Thes 4:17 the same event as Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:27?

friend of said:

Is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 the same event as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27?

And would this indicate that there will be no rapture, only a second coming and judgement? Discuss.

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It all depends on how you mean that, in what context.

If we consider the number of times, many will consider it only from their own perspective, naming the appearance of Jesus at His first coming, and then also according to their own interpretation and how it is written. But in that context we would also have to consider that He not only comes to us when He comes, but also, "each in his own order", meaning that all personal interpretations are likely wrong.

In God's reality (or context) Jesus comes twice: "first the natural, and then the spiritual." This is what is written. But even this is only true because of the way that it is told with consideration of both. But to Christ and God both are one event, not easily understood especially by those with one foot in the flesh and one in the spirit. But just as Christ came in the flesh and yet is One with the Father whom is spirit--God is One, and therefore so is the event. And the moment we separate them in our thinking, we depart from that Oneness. Nonetheless, in the world, there is two: "first the natural, then the spiritual."

Christ is God in Flesh. Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

now, verse 8

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

how many "almighty" is there? ..... well

NOTICE, the Lord is the almighty, now read Genesis 17:1 ............... is the "almighty" the LORD, all caps.

PICJAG.

101G said:

Christ is God in Flesh. Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

now, verse 8

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

how many "almighty" is there? ..... well

NOTICE, the Lord is the almighty, now read Genesis 17:1 ............... is the "almighty" the LORD, all caps.

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Instead of using a translation which does not use quotation marks and then adding your own quotation marks, try using a modern translation which uses quotation marks. Like the NASB:

6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


The Patmos Vision

9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
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Notice that John has written all but verse 8. Verse 8 is quoted by John as the words of God. You will see the beginning quotation marks at the beginning of the verse AND the closing quotation marks at the end of that verse!

GINOLJC, TO ALL.

tigger 2 said:

Instead of using a translation which does not use quotation marks and then adding your own quotation marks, try using a modern translation which uses quotation marks. Like the NASB

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thanks but no thanks.

farouk said:

Two different events, or at least two, thoroughly distinct stages of a great event incorporating quite different aspects developments for different people. Clearly, the Matthew 24 event refers to a unique future event on earth. Whereas the Rapture of the church is in the air, and does not relate directly to Israel or to the judgment of the nations.

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Not correct.

1 Thess.4 shows Jesus is DESCENDING to earth when the caught up event of those still alive are gathered. Zechariah 14 shows where Jesus will touch down upon the earth, the same place where He ascended to Heaven from, the Mount of Olives (Acts 1).

Davy said:

Not correct.

1 Thess.4 shows Jesus is DESCENDING to earth when the caught up event of those still alive are gathered. Zechariah 14 shows where Jesus will touch down upon the earth, the same place where He ascended to Heaven from, the Mount of Olives (Acts 1).

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What is on the earth and what is in the air relates to different people: the church is to be raptured in the air. Dispensationally, the church is a heavenly people; Israel is an earthly people.

farouk said:

What is on the earth and what is in the air relates to different people: the church is to be raptured in the air. Dispensationally, the church is a heavenly people; Israel is an earthly people.

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One would expect that all Christians would understand this basic truth. But we have some who dismiss the Rapture altogether, and do not believe that the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem. This is all a result of the misguided anti-Rapture propaganda which has been circulating for quite some time. But Christians have a duty to study the Bible for themselves and reject all propagandistic nonsense.

farouk said:

What is on the earth and what is in the air relates to different people: the church is to be raptured in the air. Dispensationally, the church is a heavenly people; Israel is an earthly people.

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The reference to Jerusalem above in Galatians 4 is about the world to come, Jerusalem on earth for the future after Jesus returns to this earth, not Jerusalem up in the air.

friend of said:

I've heard someone say that 1 Thess 4:7 was talking about the first resurrection, not the rapture

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That is correct, and that is why it should be called the Resurrection/Rapture. Those who have passed on receive glorified resurrection bodies, while those who are alive at that time are transformed, and also receive glorified bodies. Also, this would be phase II of the first resurrection (which is in three phases according to 1 Cor 15).

Funny watching two pre-trib rapture supporters here put on a back-and-forth dialogue show as if they're keeping to Bible Scripture.

Paul in 1 Thess.4 gives the time of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church when he taught about the asleep saints there being resurrected. The resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this world. That means that 1 Thess.4 event is on the LAST DAY of this world. And that agrees with Rev.1 about Jesus coming in the clouds with ALL eyes seeing Him, which is the same declaration in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

So brethren in Christ... don't let the pre-trib rapture stage players deceive you with their magic dialogue, like master and grasshopper.

Davy said:

The resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this world.

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False. Christ used the term " the LAST DAY" as a metaphor for a period of time which would extend for over 1,000 years. Just like "the day of LORD" is a period of time (3 1/2 years), not a 24 hour day.

Since the resurrection of the saints and the resurrection of the unsaved is separated by over 1,000 years, they cannot be on "the last day of the world" (which is something else altogether, being the day when the earth is totally burned up supernaturally and the New Heavens and the New Earth are established).

1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the saints (the metaphorical "last day" begins)
2. Daniel's 70th week (7 years) (includes the day of the LORD)
3. The Second Coming of Christ
4. The battle of Armageddon
5. The Millennium (1,000 years)
5. The battle of Gog and Magog
6. The resurrection of the damned and the Great White Throne Judgment (the metaphorical "last day" ends)
7. The supernatural burning up of the earth and atmospheric heaven (the actual last day)
8. The New Heavens and the New Earth

So you don't even understand this fundamental chronology, and you should be learning rather than trying to teach what you do not understand..

friend of said:

Since you believe in 3 parts to the first ressurection and also the rapture, could you go back and identify which of the verses in my OP corresponds with rapture and the other parts of the first resurrection unto life?

Thanks

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Sure. I will address this later.

Enoch111 said:

False. Christ used the term " the LAST DAY" as a metaphor for a period of time which would extend for over 1,000 years. Just like "the day of LORD" is a period of time (3 1/2 years), not a 24 hour day.
....

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What you say is false.

The last day phrase is NOT A METAPHOR.

That's what the pre-trib rapture spin-doctors try to do, take simple speech and turn in into something not written at all in Scripture. That's what charlatans who are determined to deceive do. They will have their reward when my Lord Jesus returns on the last day of this world, as written...

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:44
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:23-24
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
KJV

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV