Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

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Copperhead

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First and foremost, in all of the KJV-NT, one will NEVER FIND the words
"THE" "GREAT" "T"
ribulation.

First and foremost, you won't find the words Trinity, Atheist, Agnostic, and a host of other words that folks have put on valid concepts. So it really isn't a strong argument to base a position on word or the lack thereof.

I'm not on a pre-trib rapture doctrine of men. I'm not a Futurist nor Dispensationalist either. I follow God's written Word, not man's nor yours.

Well if you follow only God's written word, then we have a different God.

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God
 
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Phoneman777

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This is what I've learned so far about Dispensationalism. Not one scripture directly supports any of their prophecies about the future.
The Jesuits created a gap in the 70 weeks that scripture does not support. They turned Jesus who fulfilled the 70 weeks into Antichrist and made the 70th week still future. All in an effort to rid the Papacy of being the Antichrist according to scripture and the Reformers. And then they shop the scriptures trying to recreate the world as it was when Jesus fulfilled the 70th week in his earthly ministry, only in the future. For this they must recreate a (restored) Roman Empire, a tribulation which already happened in AD 70. A temple, animal sacrifices and so on. All false prophecy with no direct support from scripture.
Yes, you are 100% correct that the 70th week is a matter of history, because:
  • Christ confirmed His Covenant of grace for 7 years, first in person and then for 3 1/2 years through "them that heard him" (Hebrews 2:3 KJV)
  • Daniel said Messiah would die "after" the 69 weeks, which is during the 70th - putting it in the past.
  • He was cut off "in the midst of the (70) week" - the midst is history, so also are the beginning and end
  • He caused the "sacrifices/oblations to cease" for those who turned from empty ritual to the True Lamb
 

Phoneman777

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Your mind is just all over... the map of confusion. That's what too much study of issues outside of God's Holy Writ will do to you.

I'm not on a pre-trib rapture doctrine of men. I'm not a Futurist nor Dispensationalist either. I follow God's written Word, not man's nor yours.
Sorry, I thought you were of the opinion the Antichrist is still future - that being as far from Biblical truth as one can get.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Yes, you are 100% correct that the 70th week is a matter of history, because:
  • Christ confirmed His Covenant of grace for 7 years, first in person and then for 3 1/2 years through "them that heard him" (Hebrews 2:3 KJV)
  • Daniel said Messiah would die "after" the 69 weeks, which is during the 70th - putting it in the past.
  • He was cut off "in the midst of the (70) week" - the midst is history, so also are the beginning and end
  • He caused the "sacrifices/oblations to cease" for those who turned from empty ritual to the True Lamb

Umm-no. Daniel 9:26 says that the Messiah would be "cut-off" (violently killed) after 62 weeks "appearing to have accomplished nothing." He then goes on to say that "a ruler [TITUS] will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple."--in 70 A.D. Then this passage in Daniel spins forward to the time of the End. It speaks of a future desecration of the Temple--and it can't be from Titus because he did not make a seven-year pact with the people and it can't be Antiochus IV Epiphanes because Jesus referred to the desecration of the Temple in His prophecy of the time of the End (Matthew 24:15) and Antiochus' desecration (known in Judaism as the "Abomination of Desolation") had occurred approximately 200 years before Christ (215 B.C.). Antiochus slaughtered a pig on the altar of the Temple, ordered a statue of Zeus to be erected inside the Temple and stood up there announcing that he was Zeus. Antiochus ended up being murdered by his own two sons--must have been a devilish sort of guy.

Jesus referred to the desecration spoken of by the prophet Daniel when He spoke of the time of the End (i.e. Matthew chapter 24). The reason why we can be certain that He was pointing well beyond 70 A.D. is because there is NO evidence that Roman General, Titus desecrated the Temple as Antiochus had done nearly three centuries before. Titus also did not order the "sacrifices and oblations to cease". Titus actually gave strict orders that the Temple wasn't to be destroyed. The Romans generally respected the religions of conquered territories--understanding that peace in the Empire (Pax Romana) would be much more likely to be maintained if religious sensitivities were respected. But the greed of Titus' troops made them decide to burn the Temple down in order to obtain the gold that lined the inner walls of the Temple. The gold flowed down as the Temple burned. The Roman troops even pried the foundation stones apart to get to the gold which had flowed down between the stones. Thus fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that "not one stone will be left upon another". Titus became the next Roman Emperor after the death of his father, Emperor Vespasian.
 
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Phoneman777

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Umm-no. Daniel 9:26 says that the Messiah would be "cut-off" (violently killed) after 62 weeks
Actually, we must include the SEVEN WEEKS of the street and wall building, as well, of the previous verse, which brings the total to SIXTY NINE....therefore, after SIXTY NINE weeks, Messiah is "cut off".
Question: What week comes after the 69th? The 70th, the week in which Messiah was killed. It's still back there in history, not sliced off and transported to the end of time as some "last seven years".
He then goes on to say that "a ruler [TITUS] will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple."--in 70 A.D.
Whether one insists those responsible for destroying the city are the "people of the prince Titus" which is the Roman army - or - the Jewish people of prince Jesus (it can be said the Jews destroyed their own city due to their having driven away the protecting hand of God through rejection of Jesus), I have no quarrel. My quarrel is with those who insist this "prince" is some future "Antichrist" dude who's yet to come.
Then this passage in Daniel spins forward to the time of the End. It speaks of a future desecration of the Temple
The events Jesus predicted appl to BOTH 70 A.D. and the end of time. What was local and literal in OT is spiritual and worldwide in the NT. The "temple" is the church, and the same Roman Sun God worship standards which were brought in to desecrate the temple Zerubbabel built are being dragged into the church as Sunday sacredness, when Scripture is absolutely clear that the Sabbath is a sign between "Me and My people forever".
--and it can't be from Titus because he did not make a seven-year pact with the people and it can't be Antiochus IV Epiphanes because Jesus referred to the desecration of the Temple in His prophecy of the time of the End (Matthew 24:15) and Antiochus' desecration (known in Judaism as the "Abomination of Desolation") had occurred approximately 200 years before Christ (215 B.C.). Antiochus slaughtered a pig on the altar of the Temple, ordered a statue of Zeus to be erected inside the Temple and stood up there announcing that he was Zeus. Antiochus ended up being murdered by his own two sons--must have been a devilish sort of guy.
Get it through your head that there's no such thing as a "seven year pact" - the Bible sets no such boundary for the covenant. What the text says is that the covenant is CONFIRMED for seven years, not that it lasts for seven years. Christ came to "confirm the promises to the fathers" - the promise of the covenant of grace to all men, Jew and Gentile - first in Person for 3 1/2 years during His ministry and then "through them that heard Him" when the disciples continued to do so for the remaining 3 1/2 years, with the end of the confirmation of the covenant being at the moment Stephen was stoned and the Gospel went to the Gentiles. Antiochus was just a lunatic in history with no prophetic significance whatsoever, as you've stated. Really, are we supposed to believe he was "exceeding great" over the "notable horn" which is Alexander the Great?
Jesus referred to the desecration spoken of by the prophet Daniel when He spoke of the time of the End (i.e. Matthew chapter 24).
As stated earlier, the words of Daniel are a dual prophecy, referring to 70 A.D. and the end of time, the former being literal and the latter being spiritual.
 
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Earburner

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Burner posted:
First and foremost, in all of the KJV-NT, one will NEVER FIND the words
"THE" "GREAT" "T"
ribulation.
.
Copperhead replied:
First and foremost, you won't find the words Trinity, Atheist, Agnostic, and a host of other words that folks have put on valid concepts. So it really isn't a strong argument to base a position on word or the lack thereof.
.
EB's reply:
Circular reasoning doesn't justify words that are inserted into the newer bibles of today, which are interpreted from the Wescott and Hort Greek text, as opposed to the KJV, which is interpreted from the
Textus Receptus Greek text.
Two different Greek texts produce two different schools of thought!
.
And many wonder why there is so much confusion in the churches today!
There is only one author confusion.
 

Copperhead

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The passage in Daniel 9, there are two distinct princes in view. Messiah the prince, and the prince who is to come. Since the weeks are specifically with Daniel's people in mind, the has to be some other people than Daniel's people, the Hebrews. There is a delineation between Daniel's people and the people of the prince to come. Messiah the prince is of Daniel's people, so the princes are delineated.

And the "he" of Daniel 9:27, following basic grammatical principles, refers to the closer "prince" of the previous verse, the prince to come, not the one cut off.

And following the hermeneutic principle of expositional constancy, the 70th week must be a week of years just like the previous 69 weeks were weeks of years. To maintain proper consistency, the 70th week is 7 full years, no more and no less.

So if there is no break between the 69th and 70th week. then the covenant would have to have been affirmed at the time of Yeshua's death, and the sacrifices would have to have ended along with offerings 3.5 years later, roughly 35-36AD. There was no covenant affirmed between the prince to come and the people of Daniel in 32AD. Also, we see James, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, having Paul go to the temple to make the sacrifice of the Nazarite vow, in Acts 21 which the events written there were considerably longer than 7 years after Yeshua's death. So how then can the sacrifice be ended by the prince of the people and still Paul and others are able to sacrifice at the temple? Especially if the sacrifice and offering was terminated at the 3.5 year point or 35-36AD.

So no matter how one slices it, there is a implied gap between Week 69 and Week 70. And the various passages in both the OT adn NT suggest that the 70th week, again the focus is on Daniel's people, is tied into the final years before Yeshua's return.
 
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Davy

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....
Well if you follow only God's written word, then we have a different God.

Then we must have, because my GOD is The One declared in Holy Writ, God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit; and He didn't teach anything about a pre-trib rapture. It was the Edward Irving movement in 1830's Great Britain that taught a pre-trib rapture theory, which is where John Darby got it from, and then Cyrus Scofield got it from Darby and brought it to America, and their followers have continued that deception to this day.


1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God


The word dispensation merely means an 'administration'. Look it up in the Greek.

It does not... mean a whole other gospel.

Jesus chose Apostle Paul as His chosen vessel to preach Christ to the Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel. Jesus didn't say anything there about a different gospel for the Christian Church. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
KJV
 

Davy

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Sorry, I thought you were of the opinion the Antichrist is still future - that being as far from Biblical truth as one can get.

Then I have plenty of company... because the early Church fathers taught what I believe about the Antichrist for the end...


On Christ and Antichrist, by Hippolytus (170 A.D.)

"27. As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey.

28. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." (CHURCH FATHERS: On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus))


Per Daniel 2, Christ comes to smite the final beast kingdom written of there, which is the feet of part iron and part clay. And when Jesus comes to do that, like Hippolytus says above, that is when Jesus will setup His everlasting Kingdom, which God's Word declares will be over ALL nations and peoples.
 

Copperhead

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Then we must have, because my GOD is The One declared in Holy Writ, God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit; and He didn't teach anything about a pre-trib rapture. It was the Edward Irving movement in 1830's Great Britain that taught a pre-trib rapture theory, which is where John Darby got it from, and then Cyrus Scofield got it from Darby and brought it to America, and their followers have continued that deception to this day.





The word dispensation merely means an 'administration'. Look it up in the Greek.

It does not... mean a whole other gospel.

Jesus chose Apostle Paul as His chosen vessel to preach Christ to the Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel. Jesus didn't say anything there about a different gospel for the Christian Church. There is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
KJV

If you had actually done your homework you would have found illusions to the pre-trib concept as far back as at least the 4th century, and likely further than that.

One of the main reasons there is not a lot of writing on it prior to the reformation was that the institutional church would brand such concepts as heretical and burn both the writer and the writings at the stake. Some would say that alone gives street cred to the pre-trib concept.

The reformation along with the printing press opened the door to wider access to the scripture and a “back to the Bible” mindset. From that point forward the pre-trib gained more traction. But amillennialism still reigns supreme due to about 1200 years of institutional church teaching. The reformation expanded the biblical concept of salvation by grace thru faith alone and other key doctrines. These doctrines, along with pre-trib were always there, just no longer suppressed by the hierarchy in the institutional church.
 

Davy

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If you had actually done your homework you would have found illusions to the pre-trib concept as far back as at least the 4th century, and likely further than that.
....

Ah... no Bible there. Failure to support your idea. No Scripture.
 

Copperhead

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Ah... no Bible there. Failure to support your idea. No Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

This is from the 1599 Geneva Bible. It is the accurate translation of the passage along with the LV using “dicessio”, meaning departure and the underlying meaning of discessio implies a spatial departure not a spiritual departure.

The context is in verse 1....

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

The context is our gathering to Him. The departure of V3 is our gathering to Yeshua.... before the man of sin / Antichrist is revealed.

As Dr. James Woods states... “this passage affirms the pre-trib... game, set, match”

Also Isaiah 26:19-21 fully supports this as well, thus the Pre-trib concept meets the Torah requirement to establish the matter. And this only scratches the surface.

So yes, there is ample support both OT and NT for a pre-trib concept.
 
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Davy

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2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

This is from the 1599 Geneva Bible. It is the accurate translation of the passage along with the LV using “dicessio”, meaning departure and the underlying meaning of discessio implies a spatial departure not a spiritual departure.

The context is in verse 1....

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

The context is our gathering to Him. The departure of V3 is our gathering to Yeshua.... before the man of sin / Antichrist is revealed.

As Dr. James Woods states... “this passage affirms the pre-trib... game, set, match”

Also Isaiah 26:19-21 fully supports this as well, thus the Pre-trib concept meets the Torah requirement to establish the matter. And this only scratches the surface.

So yes, there is ample support both OT and NT for a pre-trib concept.

Nah... your theory is a JOKE!

You can fool the gullible here, but I'm not one of them!


The Greek word for KJV "a falling away" in 2 Thess.2:3 is 'apostasia'. It is where our English word 'apostasy' is derived...


NT:646
apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:

KJV - falling away, forsake.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 
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Copperhead

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Nah... your theory is a JOKE!

You can fool the gullible here, but I'm not one of them!


The Greek word for KJV "a falling away" in 2 Thess.2:3 is 'apostasia'. It is where our English word 'apostasy' is derived...


NT:646
apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]:

KJV - falling away, forsake.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

That’s OK. I am comfortable with the concept and have been since 1967. You are still welcome along for the ride when it happens. I believe it so much that I go out in the yard and jump up and down for rapture practice! Well, not quite, but I think you get the point.

All who trust in Yeshua are welcome. It will be a blast! And that train is coming around the bend.

Not trying to fool anyone. Just optimistic and know in whom I have placed my trust, and following Paul’s advice to encourage the brothers and sisters with the blessed hope.
 
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Keraz

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If you had actually done your homework you would have found illusions to the pre-trib concept as far back as at least the 4th century, and likely further than that.
I like your use of 'illusion' in regard to the pre-trib rapture theory, because that is what that fanciful idea is; just an illusion.
Pinning your hopes on an ancient trans of the Bible to make 'apostasia' mean departure, in your thinking the removal of the Church before any tribulation, is devious and sure to lead to a great disappointment for you and the millions of other deceived people.

Why don't you carefully study what it is that the Lord will do for His people, His 'sheep' in these end times? Ezekiel 34:11-10, Isaiah 35:1-10, +
 

Copperhead

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Nothing you can say will intimidate me into recanting the pre-millennial pre-trib. No one has in 50 years and I am more solidly in the camp than at any other time in my life.

One does have to wonder though, how does one encourage the brethren by telling them they are in store for the worse period that has been or ever will be and it is by the very hand of the one who redeemed them? I am not convinced this is what Paul was referring to when he wrote “comfort one another with these words”.

If folks are bound and determined to go thru that mess, maybe the Lord will grant their heart’s desire. I have no clue and don’t worry about that choice they make.

It really comes down to this: if I am wrong, then so what? I go thru the mess like everyone else. If others are wrong about the pre-trib, the consequences could be worse.

What is coming doesn’t frighten me. Death is the easy part. Like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah stated, I also go with.....

Daniel 3:17-18
If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”
 

Phoneman777

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Then I have plenty of company... because the early Church fathers taught what I believe about the Antichrist for the end...


On Christ and Antichrist, by Hippolytus (170 A.D.)

"27. As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey.

28. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." (CHURCH FATHERS: On Christ and Antichrist (Hippolytus))


Per Daniel 2, Christ comes to smite the final beast kingdom written of there, which is the feet of part iron and part clay. And when Jesus comes to do that, like Hippolytus says above, that is when Jesus will setup His everlasting Kingdom, which God's Word declares will be over ALL nations and peoples.
What good it is to quote men whose predictions of the future arrival of the Antichrist were made prior to 538 A.D., when the papal Antichrist arose? Of course they will all have said the Antichrist is future. None of them believed the Antichrist had yet arrived.
 

Enoch111

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...when the papal Antichrist arose?
According to the Bible, there could be no such thing as a "papal Antichrist". That was an invention of the Protestant Reformers and has been accepted as Gospel truth by the SDA church and many others from the Reformed tradition. However according to Scripture:

1. The Antichrist must be a renegade Jew (coming to the Orthodox Jews as their true Messiah) not a papal system in Rome

2. His seat of authority must be in Jerusalem and the future temple

3. His reign will be restricted to just 42 months (3 1/2 years)

4. He will be the Arch Blasphemer of God and Christ

5. Along with Satan, he will have absolute control of all the inhabitants of the world, and will enforce the idolatrous worship of his own image

6. He will demand that every person take a literal mark (or tattoo) in their right hand or forehead in order to transact any business

7. He will have supernatural Satanic powers to dazzle the world with signs, "lying wonders", and miracles.
 

Copperhead

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Actually, there are two characters in play... the Antichrist and the False Prophet, working in unison.