Faith or sin

Episkopos said:

Where they told Jesus and the apostles to go away. Like the Israelites didn't want God speaking to them anymore...talk to Moses not us.

That is in the gospel of Matthew...after Jesus cast the demons into the pigs.

Matthew 8:34

34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus. And when they saw Him, they begged Him to depart from their region.

Also in Acts...


Acts 16:39
39 And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city.

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Oh yeah, those are two more examples!

What I was thinking of is in acts, after Ananias and Saphira, where it says...others then refused to join them even though they had great respect for them.

You kind of admire them. They feared that power of God they saw in the apostles. They saw that the Holy Spirit in them was not something to be trifled with or lied to.

But we're not in the O.T. anymore...
Jesus has come.
There is only one God...I'm not saying only Christians go to be with God.
However, if one denies God, then God will deny Him.
2 Timothy 2:12b

This that you said grabbed me, pearl.
Is it to be applied to unbelievers or to us? A lot of unbelievers resist God when He is on their heels. But if they resist Him, He presses in harder. But to deny Him? That's what a believer should take to his own heart, not apply to an unbeliever. I think...

stunnedbygrace said:

But we're not in the O.T. anymore...
Jesus has come.
There is only one God...I'm not saying only Christians go to be with God.
However, if one denies God, then God will deny Him.
2 Timothy 2:12b

This that you said grabbed me, pearl.
Is it to be applied to unbelievers or to us? A lot of unbelievers resist God when He is on their heels. But if they resist Him, He presses in harder. But to deny Him? That's what a believer should take to his own heart, not apply to an unbeliever. I think...

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Hi SBG,
I wrote the above...not Pearl.

It is unbelievers who are denying God.
Jesus also says this in Mathew 10:33

Mathew 10:32-33
32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

However, I do believe in eternal security but it has one conditiion:
One must continue to believe in Jesus; otherwise that person also would be denying Him.

So, in reality, it's applied to unbelievers and believers.
The difference is that unbelievers never believed.
and believers stop believing and having faith, for one reason or another.
I must say that it's not easy to let go of God once one knows His love.

stunnedbygrace said:

So WHY is it important for enoch11 to insist that those who walked out under the towering wall of water did not trust God, at that time?

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Hey there, maybe like me, @Enoch111 believes that Israel only cared for their own skin, so they were driven across between the walls of water by fear, not a response of faith.

They did nothing but murmur , moan, and complain against God and Moses from the beginning. Hence, God lead them in circles 40 years and they could not enter into the Land.

We see not one place, where , other than Joshua and Caleb, that Israel showed any faith of their own.

Even when God says (Ex 19) " Gather them before Me, so I can speak to them......" They did not want that.

Israel answers Ex 20
"And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die."
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was."


The group chose religion ( let man speak to us), but the man Moses, chose a relationship.

"ByGrace" said:

They did nothing but murmur , moan, and complain against God and Moses from the beginning. Hence, God lead them in circles 40 years and they could not enter into the Land.

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Well said. The problem here is that some believe that what they imagine is more valid than what is actually revealed in Scripture. Not just in this case but many other cases.

It is not myself who has said that the Israelites who came out of Egypt were in unbelief. That is God's assessment, and we are obligated to present what God has said.

Enoch111 said:

Well said. The problem here is that some believe that what they imagine is more valid than what is actually revealed in Scripture. Not just in this case but many other cases.

It is not myself who has said that the Israelites who came out of Egypt were in unbelief. That is God's assessment, and we are obligated to present what God has said.

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Its not imagined. Epi gave the verse. So definitely not imagined.

Enoch111 said:

Why don't you pay attention to Scripture, instead of making such erroneous remarks? See my quotations from the Bible.

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I am paying attention to scripture. All of it. So I see your scripture and I raise you. (With epi's scripture.) If you fit them both together, you don't come away with Israel having never trusted God.

So you have to throw out one scripture to save your construct. You are defending a tower made with untempered bricks. A crooked one at that. It won't stand on the day of the Lord.

In fact, if a fox ran across it, it would collapse!

stunnedbygrace said:

So I see your scripture and I raise you. (With epi's scripture.) If you fit them both together, you don't come away with Israel having never trusted God.

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I can't find @Episkopos scripture showing Israel had faith?
Can either you or he quite it? Thanks.

I stand by my post # 85 unless anyone can change my mind on it.

Even in the NT Hebrews 4 says-
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: ( talking of Israel) but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

Thanks...H

The verse epi quoted was about how the Lord saved Israel that day and how they saw His might and feared Him and believed the Lord and His servant Moses.

But I think you aren't quite grasping the argument. Its not over how Israel ended. Its over whether they EVER trusted God.

stunnedbygrace said:

The verse epi quoted was about how the Lord saved Israel that day and how they saw His might and feared Him and believed the Lord and His servant Moses.

But I think you aren't quite grasping the argument. Its not over how Israel ended. Its over whether they EVER trusted God.

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So he is protecting his construct by saying they NEVER trusted God, despite some verses to the contrary. He has to do this or he will find himself sitting in a pile of rubble.

stunnedbygrace said:

But we're not in the O.T. anymore...
Jesus has come.
There is only one God...I'm not saying only Christians go to be with God.
However, if one denies God, then God will deny Him.
2 Timothy 2:12b

This that you said grabbed me, pearl.
Is it to be applied to unbelievers or to us? A lot of unbelievers resist God when He is on their heels. But if they resist Him, He presses in harder. But to deny Him? That's what a believer should take to his own heart, not apply to an unbeliever. I think...

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Was Peter a believer? Did he deny God three times?

By the way Helen, I hope you are feeling better!

stunnedbygrace said:

The verse epi quoted was about how the Lord saved Israel that day and how they saw His might and feared Him and believed the Lord and His servant Moses.

But I think you aren't quite grasping the argument. Its not over how Israel ended. Its over whether they EVER trusted God.

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I presume this is written to me?

1) I never knew there was an 'argument'.
2) I obviously am not grasping whatever it is. So I agree.
3) I still don't see a quote of whatever verse @Episkopos posted.
Can you post it for me to see?

I agree, I have no grasp on what we are talking about here.

"ByGrace" said:

Hey there, maybe like me, @Enoch111 believes that Israel only cared for their own skin, so they were driven across between the walls of water by fear, not a response of faith.

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Hi Helen!
The issue was whether Israel was saved.

Israel definitely had beliefs and they even saw the work of God first hand. Imagine walking through a miraculous path through the sea with a wall of water on both sides.

I don't think anyone believed it was a natural occurrence.

The problem with Israel was not that they lacked beliefs about being saved by God. Their issue was with the ways of God. The judgments of God.

They were punished for doubting about taking the land of Canaan...so to walk in circles for 40 years.

But there is no difference with people in every generation. Who has the faith to enter into what seems impossible at any time in history?

We see the same thing with the rich young ruler. All he had to do was the seeming impossible requirement to give everything up to follow Christ. I know that people today think he lacked faith...which he did...but how many of us can do that? How many can just walk away from our lives...our spouses, children, jobs...our entire lives to follow Christ who happens to walk by?

Very few of us. I know that Francis of Assissi did that very thing. He exchanged his rich clothing for that of a beggar and walked as a beggar from then on. (I know his case is particular...yet it shows the radical nature of the calling of Christ in our lives)

So who is going to judge what kind of faith that God is requiring of us today? Sure we can think we would have been fine with Gods standard back in the day. But that is to miss the point I think. We aren't as full of faith as we might think.

There is a lot of religion.

That is where the calling to enter into Christ and to walk perfectly before Him...by grace through faith..is the challenge of today. God told Abraham..

Genesis 17:1
17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Are we not of the seed of Abraham through Christ? (who is THE seed of Abraham)

And in Christ do we not have access to the fulness of Christ to do more than what was required in the OT? We have a more perfect priesthood after all.

So where is the faith to walk as a Stephen, or a Paul today?

"ByGrace" said:

I presume this is written to me?

1) I never knew there was an 'argument'.
2) I obviously am not grasping whatever it is. So I agree.
3) I still don't see a quote of whatever verse @Episkopos posted.
Can you post it for me to see?

I agree, I have no grasp on what we are talking about here.

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Okay, so see, here I think you took me to be calling you stupid. NOT what I meant. What I meant was I thought you hadn't read and followed the last 3 or 4 pages of discussion, hence you hadn't grasped the argument. And by argument I mean...more debate. No one was smacking anyone Or anything.

And yeah, I guess I can go back 3 or 4 pages and find epi's post for you. Hang on.

Here it is Helen. Exodus 14. And while I'm at it, I'm going to go find a supporting verse that keeps nagging at my mind. Give me a minute.

But also, if you read from page 2 or 3, you will see what the debate was about.

Episkopos said:

I know what is says...but you are forgetting that they were indeed saved. Saved out of Egypt. Saved from bondage.

Ex. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. 31. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

The gospel is about salvation from bondage. But the kingdom is much more than what we are being saved from.

We also need to be saved to something...

So in between, the believers are tested and sifted to see who will actually humble themselves and have faith in the impossible.

Because it is the Lord acting before us.

There remains bondage within each one of us that must be overcome by the gospel. Faith will see us through those personal hindrances to life and peace. A faith that breaks up the carnal walls we have been given or have built up to protect ourselves.

But I have never seen that kind of faith in your posts. You are against that kind of faith.

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2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we don't believe or are not acting in faith, still the Lord abides with us, because He is faithful. The stedfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. Great is His faithfulness. He swore by Himself to perfect that which is lacking in our faith, by which He could swear by no greater. Our lack of faith does not halt God's love and promise to us. There is no condemnation, but merely loving chastisement if we err.

Heb. 6: 12-14
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.