Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil

Preacher4Truth said:

Believers are saved by grace, Ephesians 2:8-10. You on the other hand think you merited salvation by choosing. You should congratulate yourself.

I've provided scripture denying this in the past, but you reject contextual scripture. John 1:13 is just one example, but you'll find a way around it, and pit a verse or several, out of context of course, against said truth. You believe you saved yourself by choosing, which is merit, and can never be grace, which is unmerited. But you don't believe nor do you understand the Gospel, you think it's about what you did to get into heaven.

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Well sir, if you keep saying I take everything out of context, HOW will we ever discuss your theology?

You believe in monergism.
I believe in synergism.
This does not mean I SAVED MYSELF.
Jesus saved me because He is our Savior.

Our difference is that you believe God picked YOU...
I believe God revealed Himself to me and I CHOSE to believe in Him.

The reason you have a problem with this is because you do not believe in free will. Perhaps we could discuss free will?
In the meantime I offer the following:

Luke 6:47 JESUS:
47“Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

EVERYONE WHO COMES TO ME.



Mathew 4:17 JESUS:
"Repent for the Kingdomof heaven is at hand."

Jesus tells us to repent...not to wait till God picks US.


Mathew 5:20 JESUS
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Why would Jesus teach HOW TO BE SAVED, IF it did not depend on our decision to comply with His laws?


Mark 12:17 JESUS
"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Why render anything to God? What satisfaction could there be on God's part since in your theology it is GOD that predestined what you are to render to Him?
No satisfaction at all. Why would Jesus even say such words?

I could go thru the whole of the N.T. and come up with plenty of scripture.

NOW to YOUR verses:

John 1:13
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Speak of context! John is talking about Jesus being the light and coming to man.
Although Jesus made the world...the world did not recognize Him. In this case, the world means those that Jesus came into contact with.

Only a few received Him,,,but to all that received Him, He gave the right to be called children of God. Please notice...TO ALL THAT RECEIVED HIM...He gave the right to be called Children of God. Again John tells us HOW to be saved..by RECEIVING JESUS.
John 1:11-12

ALL THOSE who RECEIVED Jesus became born again...
NOT OF BLOOD.....which is a physical birth
NOT OF WILL OF THE FLESH....which is a physical birth
NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN......which is a physical birth wanted by man
BUT OF GOD...(or BUT BY THE WILL OF GOD)......our rebirth is by the will of God and not of natural birth.

NOR BY THE WILL OF MAN
BUT OF GOD




Ephesians 2:8-10
I agree totally.
But, of course, you didn't exegete.

Jane_Doe22 said:

My comment wasn't really meant as a joke.
In Calvinism, God is the only being with free will, and hence any culpability. When "born a slave to sin" is interpreted to mean that a person literally lacks free will to accept God's gift of salvation, then God is the only person that has any culpability. He is designer of a system where many many people are created just to be tortured for eternity. Even those that are sent to heaven are also slaves in a fancier prison, as they still lack free will to say "no thank you". Everyone's fate is forced.

As a person who have been forced by another (#MeToo), the Calvinist notion of deity is... downright repulsive. There is no love in force. No 'marriage' where one partner forced themselves on another is ever true love-- no matter how fancy of a house they live in or how fancy stuff they fill that house with.

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You don't have to convince me!
Blessings to those who obey
Curses to those who do not

Why would God EVER say that in His covenants with man
IF He had already predestinated everything?!

Predestination does seem to go against normal common sense...
I really do fail to see the good in this theology.

Jane_Doe22 said:

Dude: if you, a Calvinist, have issue with the fact that I'm not a Calvinist, then you can blame the only being that has any culpability in Calvinist beliefs: God.

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Oh, how cute.

Nope. I have no issue with you being a non-Calvinist, it's that you claim to be converted under a false Christ that I reject which makes you not a Christian. You think that what you do, or believe converts you, no matter which version of Christ you adhere to. That doesn't matter to you one bit. In other words you believe you convert you in spite of Christ, and in his face, and can believe whatever you want about him. Your belief trumps him, who he is, and you vote yourself into heaven.

And yes, the only reason you are not a Christian is due to God himself. That's true for all the unconverted, and the only reason they become otherwise is due to God. Not sure why there is a problem there. Wait, I am sure, because many like you think you can do it on your own without him and biblical truth and can take Scripture out of context and make it say whatever you desire.

It's Soli Deo Gloria, not glory for choosing which isn't grace.

Why?

God saves, not human will or determination, it is all via his mercy and grace. All who are converted believe who he is; John 8:24. That is not the Christ of Mormonism.

Preacher4Truth said:

Oh, how cute.

Nope. I have no issue with you being a non-Calvinist, it's that you claim to be converted under a false Christ that I reject which makes you not a Christian. You think that what you do, or believe converts you, no matter which version of Christ you adhere to. That doesn't matter to you one bit. In other words you believe you convert you in spite of Christ, and in his face, and can believe whatever you want about him. Your belief trumps him, who he is, and you vote yourself into heaven.

And yes, the only reason you are not a Christian is due to God himself. That's true for all the unconverted. Not sure why there is a problem there. Wait, I am sure, because many like you think you can do it on your own without him and biblical truth and can take Scripture out of context and make it say whatever you desire.

It's Soli Deo Gloria, not glory for choosing which isn't grace.

Why?

God saves, not human will or determination, it is all via his mercy and grace. All who are converted believe who he is; John 8:24. That is not the Christ of Mormonism.

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Again, according to Calvinists, the only reason a person is not saved (in a Calvinists eyes) is because God forced them to be thus. Lecturing a person for not being that depraved sinner God wants them to be (in Calvinists eyes) is downright silly.

Laish said:

That is completely false .

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I am very glad to hear that. Why then do you not rebuke your fellow Calvinists in this forum then for proclaiming that non Calvinists are following a false gospel? Not only do they accuse us to our faces, but publicly to one another. If we are all following a gospel that is false, then it isn't a gospel according to Paul. So how are we saved?

friend of said:

Overall, Calvinism is incompatible with free will.

God's Sovereign Will is everpresent and always ready to be enacted at His good pleasure...

...but He does not exercise it for absolutely every minute decision that is made by mortal man, as Calvinism purports.

If a man were to kill another man in cold blood and then refuse to come to Jesus to recieve remission of sins, this would be no contradiction to God's commandment not to murder, according to Calvinism, because God would be responsible for making that man commit murder and then blocking the notion of recieving Christ for forgiveness from his heart.

I don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that this is how God interacts with His creation.

I expect derision; que sera sera.

Change my mind.

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By your post, I would suggest that you do not know what Calvinism teaches.

It specifically relates to salvation and gets back to the fact that God is omniscient. If you don't know what that means, it means he knows everything.

Unlike us, he knows everything from alpha to omega, which means from beginning to end. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit which means that we cannot discern just what that means. Unless the Spirit shows us we are clueless.

He knew before I was born that on the 13th September 1953, I would respond to the Holy Spirit coming on me and filling me with his love which meant that he could make me a child of the King.

I have a very distinct feeling that if I had rejected his gift, he would not have bothered. Why would he if he already knew what my response was going to be which he did.

I guess one could say that God is a perfect economist as he doesn't give things to people who don't want it. It is hard to refuse the love of God when he offers it to you. He offers it to you because he knows.

If he doesn't then he is not omniscient. According to his foreknowledge, he gives to whoever and he does not give to whoever.

marksman said:

By your post, I would suggest that you do not know what Calvinism teaches. It specifically relates to salvation and gets back to the fact that God is omniscient. If you don't know what that means, it means he knows everything.

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While omniscience is broader than foreknowledge, Calvinists REJECT the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination, and promote the idea that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation.

But the Bible says that according to God's foreknowledge, He predestined those who would be justified (saved) to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified just as Christ is perfect and glorious). Please note what is in Scripture (Rom 8:29,30).

For whom he did foreknow...
...he also did predestinate...
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...
...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate...
...them he also called
...and whom he called, them he also justified...
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Enoch111 said:

While omniscience is broader than foreknowledge, Calvinists REJECT the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination, and promote the idea that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation.

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I don't.

marksman said:

I don't.

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I hope you and @Enoch111 continue to post to each other...it is helping me grasp the situation...I think!

I thought both of your posts were good.
I am trying to get a handle on the whole thing.

The Calvinist don't post much info on here, they seem to just argue with everyone..it's hard for me to sort it all out. So I am liking the posting between you two...maybe I can grasp it all better.

I obviously "stuck on the shelf" what I did not understand..and have never taken it down to look at it again.
Hence I am reading both your posts with interest.

Thank you both.

Enoch111 said:

While omniscience is broader than foreknowledge, Calvinists REJECT the truth that divine foreknowledge precedes predestination, and promote the idea that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation.

But the Bible says that according to God's foreknowledge, He predestined those who would be justified (saved) to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (perfected and glorified just as Christ is perfect and glorious). Please note what is in Scripture (Rom 8:29,30).

For whom he did foreknow...
...he also did predestinate...
...to be conformed to the image of his Son...
...that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate...
...them he also called
...and whom he called, them he also justified...
...and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

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Ok just a theoretical question. Those predestined by for-knowledge decide differently?
Or is it set long beforehand? In other words can some one effect events that are determined long before they are born .
Blessings
Bill

Laish said:

Ok just a theoretical question. Those predestined by for-knowledge decide differently?
Or is it set long beforehand? In other words can some one effect events that are determined long before they are born.

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Bill, divine foreknowledge means that God sees the end from before the beginning (before the foundation of the world). So He sees those who will believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel, and thereby be justified (saved by grace). And because He already know them, He predestines them to be perfected and glorified. We see this truth expressed in Ephesians 1:4-6:

According as he hath chosen us in him [DIVINE ELECTION] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love [PERFECT]:

Having predestinated us unto [FOR THE PURPOSE OF] the adoption of children [NOT FOR SALVATION BUT FOR ADOPTION] by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So now the question remains "What is adoption, and is it different from justification?"

Strong's Concordance
huiothesia: adoption
Original Word: υἱοθεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: huiothesia
Phonetic Spelling: (hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: adoption
Usage: adoption, as a son into the divine family.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5206: υἱοθεσία
b. the nature and condition of the true disciples of Christ, who by receiving the Spirit of God into their souls become the sons of God (see υἱός τοῦ Θεοῦ, 4):Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5; it also includes the blessed state looked for in the future life after the visible return of Christ from heaven; hence,ἀπεκδέχεσθαι υἱοθεσίαν, to wait for adoption, i. e. the consummate condition of the sons of God, which will render it evident that they are the sons of God,Romans 8:23, cf. Romans 8:19.

So what is "the consummate condition of the sons of God"? According to Romans 8:29,30 it is glorification, which, according to 1 John 3:1-3 is perfect resemblance to Christ -- replicas of Christ -- since "we shall be like Him, when we see Him as He is".

Enoch111 said:

Bill, divine foreknowledge means that God sees the end from before the beginning (before the foundation of the world). So He sees those who will believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel, and thereby be justified (saved by grace). And because He already know them, He predestines them to be perfected and glorified. We see this truth expressed in Ephesians 1:4-6:

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Ephesians 1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Ok how do you understand the intentions of God’s will here ?
Also looking at election how do you define it ?
Blessings
Bill

marksman said:

By your post, I would suggest that you do not know what Calvinism teaches.

It specifically relates to salvation and gets back to the fact that God is omniscient. If you don't know what that means, it means he knows everything.

Unlike us, he knows everything from alpha to omega, which means from beginning to end. The natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit which means that we cannot discern just what that means. Unless the Spirit shows us we are clueless.

He knew before I was born that on the 13th September 1953, I would respond to the Holy Spirit coming on me and filling me with his love which meant that he could make me a child of the King.

I have a very distinct feeling that if I had rejected his gift, he would not have bothered. Why would he if he already knew what my response was going to be which he did.

I guess one could say that God is a perfect economist as he doesn't give things to people who don't want it. It is hard to refuse the love of God when he offers it to you. He offers it to you because he knows.

If he doesn't then he is not omniscient. According to his foreknowledge, he gives to whoever and he does not give to whoever.

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marksman said:

I don't.

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In my observation, I've noticed the trend of a "soft" Calvinist line-of-thought and a "hard" Calvinist one ("soft" and "hard" being in quotes because they're not great words here, I just can't think any better).

A "hard" Calvinist has a hard core belief in TULIP: all men are naturally walking corpses, they only come to deity if he forces them to (complete denial of free will), and deity only intends to do this for some. Christ only died for some people, and the rest were just to go to Hell.

What @marksman seems to be believing here is what I've would call "soft" Calvinism. While all Christians believe in God's omniscience and the fact that He knows who will be saved, the "soft" Calvinist camp will really really stress that point. I don't see many talk about whether or not man have free will, or whether or not God died for all. From Mark's post here, it seems his stance is that of "Christ could have, but didn't because he knew it would be rejected".

(Include for completion-sake) You also have the non-Calvinist viewpoint, which likewise believe in God's omniscience, but also believed that He is going to prepare a place for all & offer His gift of salvation to all- even though He knows some will decline such gifts.

Laish said:

Ephesians 1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Ok how do you understand the intentions of God’s will here ?
Also looking at election how do you define it ?
Blessings
Bill

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A non-Calvinist's objection to Calvinism isn't the fact that God knows everything before it'll happen-- that's completely agree upon.

The point of disagreement is does God offer the gift to all? Does a person who goes to Hell go there 1) because he choose to reject God's gift of salvation, or 2) is it because God created that person willing their forced damnation?

Jane_Doe22 said:

The point of disagreement is does God offer the gift to all?

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Ok how dose God offer this gift to all ?
I will address the other 2 points after ya get back with this one .
Blessings
Bill

Laish said:

Ok how dose God offer this gift to all ?
I will address the other 2 points after ya get back with this one .
Blessings
Bill

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Answering my thoughts here--

Christ died for EVERY SINGLE person who has ever / will ever live on this earth. God loved the ENTIRE world and died for the ENTIRE world. He is no respecter of persons. He testifies to every single person and offers them His gift of salvation.

He does not force a single person. There is no 'privileged' class of people he died for and others he specifically made for damnation.

Laish said:

Ok how do you understand the intentions of God’s will here ?
Also looking at election how do you define it ?

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The whole tenor of the New Testament is that God purposed -- according to the counsel of His own will (not a decree but a purpose and plan of grace) -- that He would not only save a people for Himself but He would thoroughly cleanse them from all sin and evil, and perfect them (body, soul, and spirit) so that they would dwell with God and Christ for eternity in the New Jerusalem, and in perfect union and communion with God. Indeed, they would become "the Wife of the Lamb" (having been the Bride of Christ before the Marriage of the Lamb). So this is what divine election is all about -- a perfected people for a perfect God.

As the Gospel clearly reveals, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, therefore God offers salvation and eternal life freely to "whosoever" will believe the Gospel. Having been saved, they are elected for perfection.

God could have easily simply saved people from Hell without this additional plan of salvation. But since He created all things for His praise, He created the Church for "the praise of the GLORY OF HIS GRACE".

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. (Eph 1:6)

Regardless of Calvinism and what this man wrote, and even Augustine before him, it must be obvious that our ‘free’ will is very limited, and in many ways. This is how I define and qualify my statement.


1.The natural man/woman have free will only to perform or attempt to perform all things based on the things shoved into our brains by our 5 senses, and then spending all the time reacting to it all. This in itself makes our will very restrictive, useless and insignificant in this 3D_time continuum we all share.


2. The natural man/woman does not have conscious knowledge about his/her creator. This means he/she does not know spiritual things and therefore has no free will to exercise or do anything in this realm.


3. Even as an ‘un-natural’ believer, knowing some spiritual things of God, we cannot use our natural free will that still lingers within us, to alter or interfere with God’s plans. And that includes our own ability or will to severe ties with him in the future. He bought us as his slaves free from the servitude of sin, called death.


4. Since spiritual conversion to the Spirit is an unnatural process, it is not an operation even consciously considered, let alone attempted by our natural free will. It is God’s will only and his choosing only to perform this operation in our hearts. We have no will or say in the matter. We do not know the wiring or the process of triggering conversion from a spirit view.


Someone may say, well what if I want to exercise my free will to believe in God and his Son. This motion, expression, and well intention of our natural heart and will, it lies in the mind indeed, although the heart is not affected or changed until the word or the heart of God wills it, and acts upon it by his Spirit. Our free will cannot save our souls. It is only possible by the word and Spirit of our creator.


Now the above are supported by scripture. The following are my opinions and scripture does point to them implicitly.


A true believer would not exercise his/her natural free will at all, to consider departing from Christ once the spirit of Christ’s knowledge and truth became a permanent resident within us; genuinely saved in the heart.


I have never met one that did, has anyone? I have met many that were worldly spirited believers though. The ones that professed conversion as their heritage or part of their family upbringing or ‘Church’ affiliation. And those that stated they now believe in Christ or said they just became saved and went back to their old ways of the world, and not just for a stint or even several years.


The ones I know showed signs of conversion throughout their lives although I suspect they were never saved in the first place. I never saw endurance and growth even with ups and downs in their lives. They experienced and exhibited some spiritual signs and ‘things’ of God and never committed because they were never given the gift of sustaining faith, truly to believe and grow. My opinion again.


I also believe that not all people are given salvation from God’s grace, with the gift of sustaining faith to enter into the Kingdom. Why, because God foreknew their hearts before they were born. These did not meet his expectations for the Kingdom, and he would consider them again when the ‘books’ are opened, and their works discovered and judged for a life inside or even some place outside the Kingdom. Now what happens to these hearts of total rejection, scripture is not that clear.


Speculation …


If the ‘Lake of Fire’ or ‘the outer darkness’ is a place and state of cleansing to healing, then no one is really damned or becomes non-existent, even the fallen angels. Those in the Kingdom are in glory, in immorality whilst the others are despised as immortal outcasts and maybe only for a time until the Kingdom age has ended.

Blessings,

APAK

APAK said:

Regardless of Calvinism and what this man wrote, and even Augustine before him, it must be obvious that our ‘free’ will is very limited, and in many ways. This is how I define and qualify my statement.


1.The natural man/woman have free will only to perform or attempt to perform all things based on the things shoved into our brains by our 5 senses, and then spending all the time reacting to it all. This in itself makes our will very restrictive, useless and insignificant in this 3D_time continuum we all share.

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Going to stop you at the first foundational point (which then alters the course of the entire discussion)--

Does God testify of His truth to a man? Every single man, or just some?

A hard-core Calvinist would say the answer is "just some". The rest were created for the purpose of eternal torture.
A non-Calvinist the answer is "every single man". A person may then accept or reject this testimony.

Sounds like loaded questions?? His truth.. meaning??.. the gospel? his creative powers of works in what we observe by our senses everyday..the sky, the moon the oceans..? And that all men should then know the Creator and they are without excuse?

APAK