Faith or sin

Helen · Jun 20, 2019

Hope in God said:
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we don't believe or are not acting in faith, still the Lord abides with us, because He is faithful. The stedfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. Great is His faithfulness. He swore by Himself to perfect that which is lacking in our faith, by which He could swear by no greater. Our lack of faith does not halt God's love and promise to us. There is no condemnation, but merely loving chastisement if we err.

Heb. 6: 12-14
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Good one.

Helen · Jun 20, 2019

@stunnedbygrace

No, not at all, I didn't think that you were calling me stupid

Thanks for the quote...Got it!!

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

Hello again HIG!!

2 timothy 2:13 is a verse that just fills me with hope and great relief every time I read it! It strengthens me to pick myself up and begin again to walk in trust after I veer off into not trusting Him but trusting the amount of my bank account or...my own attempts to get money.

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
@stunnedbygrace

No, not at all, I didn't think that you were calling me stupid

Thanks for the quote...Got it!!

Oh good....because that would be stupid!!

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

Grr...on tiny phone can't find the verse or verses.

Its something like (my paraphrase)...WHO did God become displeased with? Wasn't it those who He had led out of bondage and saved from Pharoah?

And WHO did God become displeased with? Wasn't it those same people He had saved??

And then the warning for we who believe: so see that your own hearts don't also become evil and unbelieving as theirs did.

Maybe it's in Hebrews...

So Israel had some pretty awesome faith to step out in that seabed. But they experienced a little testing of that faith and they abandoned ship!

I could almost think, what kind of idiots would see a miracle such as that and then not trust God for food and water??!

And yet, He saved me from my bondage also. And I struggled for years with trust, proving myself to be that same kind of idiot!

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

So to say that Israel never had faith, ever at all, is wrong. First of all, there has been at least one verse given that says they did begin in trust.

Secondly, if you can't acknowledge that verse and add it into your equation, you have to wonder, WHY am I discarding it? Why am I fearful to include it or acknowledge it? What am I holding onto and fearing I will lose if I acknowledge the verse...?

Episkopos · Jun 20, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
Grr...on tiny phone can't find the verse or verses.

Its something like (my paraphrase)...WHO did God become displeased with? Wasn't it those who He had led out of bondage and saved from Pharoah?

And WHO did God become displeased with? Wasn't it those same people He had saved??

And then the warning for we who believe: so see that your own hearts don't also become evil and unbelieving as theirs did.

Maybe it's in Hebrews...

So Israel had some pretty awesome faith to step out in that seabed. But they experienced a little testing of that faith and they abandoned ship!

I could almost think, what kind of idiots would see a miracle such as that and then not trust God for food and water??!

And yet, He saved me from my bondage also. And I struggled for years with trust, proving myself to be that same kind of idiot!

The people tested Him 10 times in the desert. They grieved His Holy Spirit. And after so many signs and wonders.

It reminds me of butt prints in the sand...

Butt Prints In The Sand

One night I had a wondrous dream,
One set of footprints there was seen,
The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.

But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"
Those prints are large and round and neat,
"But Lord they are too big for feet."

"My child," He said in somber tones,
"For miles I carried you alone.
I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait."

"You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of faith, you would not know.
So I got tired, I got fed up,
and there I dropped you on your butt."

"Because in life, there comes a time,
when one must fight, and one must climb.
When one must rise and take a stand,
or leave their butt prints in the sand."

author unknown

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
So to say that Israel never had faith, ever at all, is wrong. First of all, there has been at least one verse given that says they did begin in trust.

Secondly, if you can't acknowledge that verse and add it into your equation, you have to wonder, WHY am I discarding it? Why am I fearful to include it or acknowledge it? What am I holding onto and fearing I will lose if I acknowledge the verse...?

So its like this: God saved some people. They trusted Him and trusted the one He sent, Moses. Nevertheless, those people He saved later displeased Him. They didn't displease Him when they trusted Him and stepped out in the seabed. They displeased Him LATER, when they became unbelieving.

And then, God saved another group of people (us!) We also trusted Him and the One He sent. Then if we do exactly as Israel and become untrusting, what happens to us?

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

Can I do the same thing as Israel, worrying what I will eat and drink (temporal provision worrying), and expect a different result? He will treat me differently?

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
Can I do the same thing as Israel, worrying what I will eat and drink (temporal provision worrying), and expect a different result? He will treat me differently?

But if I don't want to work through all that, I can just say, oh well, Israel never trusted Him, right??

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

Here's a new definition of insanity. To do everything exactly as Israel did....and expect different results!!

Episkopos · Jun 20, 2019

stunnedbygrace said:
So its like this: God saved some people. They trusted Him and trusted the one He sent, Moses. Nevertheless, those people He saved later displeased Him. They didn't displease Him when they trusted Him and stepped out in the seabed. They displeased Him LATER, when they became unbelieving.

And then, God saved another group of people (us!) We also trusted Him and the One He sent. Then if we do exactly as Israel and become untrusting, what happens to us?

If He didn't spare the natural branches neither will He spare us.

Rom. 11 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Salvation is a race of faith..run to win.

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

So all of this is meant to keep us sober and alert. Is it meant to scare us out of our wits? No...But the result of seeing it makes us question what other things we might have wrong.

Where ELSE might we be also be putting our thumb on the scale, tipping it in our favor, as if we aren't??

Not me · Jun 20, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I like all you've said but would like you to clarify what you mean by:
Sin we can produce on our own,,,good we cannot.
(highlighted by me above)

Do you mean that persons CAN do good but it's of no value to God if they are not saved?

I see unsaved persons doing good.

Thanks; and sure;

There are only to sources or foundations of behavior before man. Christ or self. All things are done by one or the other.

It is true man by his judgement can do many good things that seem good in His eyes.

But by God’s standard, if self is the doer of anything, it is sin.

The reason, that all that self does is sin, is because self, is that life that elevates itself above that which is right.

For righteousness is alone that thing that is right. Seeing how righteousness is that which is free from all disorder.

Hope it helps.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Edit;

It might also help to see, that if you pulled back the covers on “selfs” behavior far enough, sooner or later you would find disorder in the behavior, thereby making it evil or unrighteous.

Hope it helps again. Blessings, Not me

APAK · Jun 20, 2019

Not me said:
Romans 14:23 (NASB)
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

“whatever is not from faith is sin”

Faith in our lives is called to be the thing that distinguishes us from all else.

Knowledge of scripture is not faith. Faith is faith, and knowledge is knowledge. Faith may proceed from knowledge, and knowledge proceed from experience, but they are all to the growing of that which is the end game; our faith.

It is our faith in God that is to be the strength of our lives. The very heart or center, the dividing line between that which is sin, and that which isn’t. Faith or sin. The two categories of all things. Faith or sin.

Whatever is not one is the other.

Having faith in God;

In, by, from, and for all things. For God is God, and God is good, and we are not. If it is not God, it is not good. If it is not good, it is sin. Sin we can produce on our own, good we can not. So faith takes the place of the good we can not produce on our own. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Which is as much as saying if it’s from us or self, it’s sin. A looking away from ourselves to the source of all good is what is called for. For the just shall live by faith, this isn’t a one time faith and now were back to the limitations of that which we can do.

The just shall live by looking off to another all the days of their lives. Through that which they understand or that which they don’t. This faith we are called to is to be the ever present center or door that opens up the working of God in our lives. For God has simplified it down to the two, faith or sin. Whatever is not one is the other. The joy and peace and security there is in believing and having faith in God. Having faith in this one Who is good. Having faith that the good and righteous and loving thing exists and it is a embodied in a Person and this Person has a name and this Person’s heart is toward us. So to the getting to know this Person personally is that which causes our faith to grow. For when we know this One who is good, and we see that all else is not good, the good and honest heart longs to be joined with this one Who is good. For we have all been called to the good, let us answer the call with good and honest and open hearts knowing that if it’s not, faith, it’s sin.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Yes, Paul is speaking here in Romans 14:23 of those new and immature in Christ. Ones that are still learning how faith operates in their lives or have wavering faith at times that can cause unneeded sin. If one acts and does things without operating under faith from the Spirit even if not convicted to continue, it can be wrong and still can become a sin for that person.

Paul contrasts this in the previous verse, Romans 14:22, to those mature in Christ. Their faith is strong, and they have learned over time the things that can cause sin or those things that still produce doubt or uncertainty in their lives. They take the conservative route and wait upon acquiring more faith before acting on whatever they desire to act on. He also tells this class of believer not to wave their spiritual maturity in this light, in the faces of weaker believers, who just left the law. To just keep their experience to themselves as they can hinder those still without strong faith to growth and walk in Christ. In fact, they can cause these newbies to sin if they are grilled and told to be strong, and to stop having doubts on acting on things. I believe this discussion of Paul fits in well with his famous expression that each believer must ‘work out’ their own salvation.

The backdrop and context in mind were, of the law, eating clean versus unclean foods. Paul had the Judaizers in mind. He did not give them any slack. He did not want especially a new convert to Christ to waiver, and to return to previous spiritual life under the law for true guidance, and then attempt to apply it, or mix it in with their new grace given to them by the Almighty with the spirit of truth.

BL: wait on and use the faith you are given in measure to grow and mature in Christ. Each one is given this faith differently, and at different times and in different amounts. It is an individual ‘walk.’ Indeed. So, by looking to another believer as a yardstick of maturity or immaturity in Christ, is futile.

Blessings to all,

APAK

GodsGrace · Jun 20, 2019

Not me said:
Thanks; and sure;

There are only to sources or foundations of behavior before man. Christ or self. All things are done by one or the other.

It is true man by his judgement can do many good things that seem good in His eyes.

But by God’s standard, if self is the doer of anything, it is sin.

The reason, that all that self does is sin, is because self, is that life that elevates itself above that which is right.

For righteousness is alone that thing that is right. Seeing how righteousness is that which is free from all disorder.

Hope it helps.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Edit;

It might also help to see, that if you pulled back the covers on “selfs” behavior far enough, sooner or later you would find disorder in the behavior, thereby making it evil or unrighteous.

Hope it helps again. Blessings, Not me

OK.
This is how I understand this...I think we're close.

Even unbelievers do good works.
We all know persons that do.

However, those good works are not "credited" to them...
or, those good works are of no value in a spiritual sense because they do not believe.

Once we become saved, all the good works we do will be valuable to God and will be "appreciated" by Him. (not sure what term to us).

I think that every good work we do after salvation is for God.
Colossians 3:23

Not easy to discuss biblical nuance...!

Episkopos · Jun 20, 2019

GodsGrace said:
However, those good works are not "credited" to them...
or, those good works are of no value in a spiritual sense because they do not believe.

This is assuming that we will be judged by our beliefs rather than our works.

Where in the whole bible does it say we will be judged by what we believed?

And yet how many times do we read that we will all be judged by our works and we will reap as we have sown?

stunnedbygrace · Jun 20, 2019

Keep their experience to themselves, huh? Sounds more like not trying to build each other up in our trust...but I could be wrong.

Not me · Jun 20, 2019

APAK said:
Yes, Paul is speaking here in Romans 14:23 of those new and immature in Christ. Ones that are still learning how faith operates in their lives or have wavering faith at times that can cause unneeded sin. If one acts and does things without operating under faith from the Spirit even if not convicted to continue, it can be wrong and still can become a sin for that person.

Paul contrasts this in the previous verse, Romans 14:22, to those mature in Christ. Their faith is strong, and they have learned over time the things that can cause sin or those things that still produce doubt or uncertainty in their lives. They take the conservative route and wait upon acquiring more faith before acting on whatever they desire to act on. He also tells this class of believer not to wave their spiritual maturity in this light, in the faces of weaker believers, who just left the law. To just keep their experience to themselves as they can hinder those still without strong faith to growth and walk in Christ. In fact, they can cause these newbies to sin if they are grilled and told to be strong, and to stop having doubts on acting on things. I believe this discussion of Paul fits in well with his famous expression that each believer must ‘work out’ their own salvation.

The backdrop and context in mind were, of the law, eating clean versus unclean foods. Paul had the Judaizers in mind. He did not give them any slack. He did not want especially a new convert to Christ to waiver, and to return to previous spiritual life under the law for true guidance, and then attempt to apply it, or mix it in with their new grace given to them by the Almighty with the spirit of truth.

BL: wait on and use the faith you are given in measure to grow and mature in Christ. Each one is given this faith differently, and at different times and in different amounts. Ii is an individual ‘walk.’ Indeed. So by looking to an believer as a yardstick of maturity or immaturity in Christ, is futile.

Blessings to all,

APAK

I thank you for your thoughts.

As we grow in our personal relationships with Christ, to the end that we might be conformed to Him in all things.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Not me · Jun 20, 2019

GodsGrace said:
OK.
This is how I understand this...I think we're close.

Even unbelievers do good works.
We all know persons that do.

However, those good works are not "credited" to them...
or, those good works are of no value in a spiritual sense because they do not believe.

Once we become saved, all the good works we do will be valuable to God and will be "appreciated" by Him. (not sure what term to us).

I think that every good work we do after salvation is for God.
Colossians 3:23

Not easy to discuss biblical nuance...!

I wish you well with you personal relationship with Christ. May He enlarge Himself in you in a new and awesome way.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Faith or sin

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