Smoke Screens?

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

Part II

So the Apostle Paul reasoned this out by logical reasoning and divine inspiration. So he said that under the terms of the Old Covenant no flesh could be Justified. (Acts 13:38-41, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16-21, 3:11) Because the Law itself brought about the wrath of God. But for those that have entered into the New Covenant with God….where there is No Law, neither is there violation, (Romans 4:15) Christians are not under the Law but under grace. (Romans 10:4 Galatians 5:18) Because apart from the Law sin is dead. (Romans 7:8) As Christians we serve God in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law. (Romans 7:6) As Christians we cannot sin, (As defined by the Old Covenant.) because in order to sin, one must break the Mosaic Law (1st John 3:5-9) Because Christ, our savior was the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15) We are Justified by Faith apart from the Law. (Romans 3:28, 5:1) The clock of Grace makes us perfect before God the Father.

I agree...just want to say that we are still required to obey the 10 commandments and anything else Jesus may have said. But, yes, we are no longer under the law but under grace. God sent the Holy Spirit to help us...He was not personally present in the O.T. And the law was impossible to keep.

The Apostle Paul referred to the Old Covenant and the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death and condemnation. Stating that the letter of the Law kills, but the spirit gives life, (2nd Corinthians 3:1-9) and said that Yeshua freed us from the curse of the Law. (Galatians 3:13) And said that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) The Old Law was set aside because of its weakness and uselessness. For Yeshua is the mediator for us, in a better Covenant with God (Hebrews 7:18-22 & 8:1-13 & 10:9) In Ephesians 2:15&16, Paul had this to say; “….by abolishing in his flesh the ENMITY, which IS the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having put to DEATH ENMITY.

Paul is speaking about the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles. Right?
Jesus made one body of them and made peace between them through Himself.

In Galatians Paul had a warning for those that seek to live under the Law or look to the Law as a moral guide. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4) For those that look to the Laws for righteousness and thereby sin under the Law, Hebrews has this to say; “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES……IT IS A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:26-31) In Philippians, Paul called those people that still preached adherence to the Old Laws, dogs, evil workers and warned against false circumcision. (Phil. 3:2-14) In Titus, Paul warned against paying attention to those that preached Jewish myths and commandments of men. (Titus 1:13&14)

Agreed.

The Mosaic Law had its quirks and hard to explain, but Paul tries to explain it this way. (Romans 15:4 & Galatians 3:17-29) “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”

Agreed. Our love for Jesus makes us WANT to do good....
For those that want to do good...no law is necessary.
Love is the law.

Mosaic Laws, is made up of commandment, statues, ordinances. Before the implementation of the New Covenant, in the Gospels, Yeshua repeatedly either pointed out the deficiencies in the Laws or pointed out that their manmade traditions or interpretations nullified the intent of the Laws, or more correctly God’s intent. In John 8:17, Yeshua indirectly implies that the Mosaic Law was not His Law saying, “Even in your law it has been written…” He could have said “the law, or our law, but He did not. This is further emphasized by the fact that nowhere in the Gospel does Yeshua ever refer to “Mosaic Law or “The Law” as His Law. He refers to His Laws as “My word” or “My Commandments” And in John verse 31&32 He indicates that to be considered one of His disciples, one most follow His word, and His word would set you free from the Law and sin; “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And verses 34-36, go on to further illustrate that the Jewish Covenant and Laws made them slaves to sin, but Yeshua’s Covenant would set His people free of sin and the Law. “Truly , truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave to sin. “And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. And verse 24 had already indicated that the Jews had no hope of salvation unless they accepted Yeshua and His Laws. “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” There is only one way to sin and that is to break one of the Mosaic Laws. As long as the Jews looked to the Law for righteousness they could and did sin. And as long as they did not accept Christ as the Messiah, they had no hope of forgiveness of their sins or salvation. They or anyone else that teaches adherence to any of the Mosaic Laws or lifts the Mosaic Laws above Christ’s Laws will die in their sins, severed from the saving grace of Yeshua the Messiah!

Wow. Yes. Amen. That was a blessing to read.

After Christ’s death and after the implementation of the New Covenant, the Apostles referenced these Laws as obsolete tutors and commandments of men. In most instances that the Ten Commandments were referenced by the Apostles it was done to point out their inferiority to Christ’s teachings, or the burden that was lifted by Christ’s sacrifice, or that Christ’s Laws were so superior to the Old Laws that obeying Christ’s Laws more than fulfill the intent of the Old Laws.

I do want to say this.
The civil laws were abolished.
The ceremonial laws were abolished.
The moral law was not abolished and this included the 10 commandments.
They were inferior to Christ's love and the law of love and Christ's two great commandments...but the moral law cannot be abolished because God IS morality.

to be Cont'd.....

farouk · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Part II

I agree...just want to say that we are still required to obey the 10 commandments and anything else Jesus may have said. But, yes, we are no longer under the law but under grace. God sent the Holy Spirit to help us...He was not personally present in the O.T. And the law was impossible to keep.

Paul is speaking about the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles. Right?
Jesus made one body of them and made peace between them through Himself.

Agreed.

Agreed. Our love for Jesus makes us WANT to do good....
For those that want to do good...no law is necessary.
Love is the law.

Wow. Yes. Amen. That was a blessing to read.

I do want to say this.
The civil laws were abolished.
The ceremonial laws were abolished.
The moral law was not abolished and this included the 10 commandments.
They were inferior to Christ's love and the law of love and Christ's two great commandments...but the moral law cannot be abolished because God IS morality.

to be Cont'd.....

The beginning and end of Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith'. Obeying the Lord is by grace; it doesn't signify a works righteousness. Being under grace is a wondrous thing, indeed.

justbyfaith · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
What did the devil gain?

He gained nothing like he thought he would. He did not expect Jesus to rise from the dead.

justbyfaith · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
IOW, they may not know about the N.C. but they are still saved.

Rom 10:14, How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15, And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

GodsGrace said:
1. Not all the 613 laws were God-inspired.
Some were man-made and Jesus attested to this.

All scripture is inspired by the Lord. If the commandment is recorded in the word of the Lord, it is inspired of the Lord.

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus corrected misconceptions people had about OT laws. For example, some people took, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' as an excuse to personally exact revenge; when that was a civil law intended as a deterrent against violence. People were interpreting it as an excuse to commit violence; and Jesus corrected that.

GodsGrace said:
I agree...just want to say that we are still required to obey the 10 commandments and anything else Jesus may have said.

It is not that we are required to obey the ten commandments and anything else Jesus said. Now of course, when we repent from our old way of life, we repent of sin: therefore, we turn away from violating the ten commandments. And as a result Jesus pours out His love in our hearts; not only because of that, but because we receive His propitiation on our behalf. And that propitiation wipes out the handwriting of requirements that was against us (including the ten commandments). Therefore our obedience to the law, as those who are born again, is not out of fear of condemnation; but rather it is out of love for the One who forgave us so freely, of past, present, and future sin.

That we are born again means that we desire to obey the law; but we are no longer bound by it unto condemnation if we should fail to keep it.

GodsGrace said:
The moral law was not abolished and this included the 10 commandments.

See above. Also, the moral law in a New Testament relationship is no longer written on tablets of stone, condemning us from the outside; rather, it is written on fleshy tables of human hearts, governing us from the inside.

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

@Grailhunter

Aspects of Salvation

The doctrine of salvation is both simple and complex. On one hand, most of us can quote at least part of John 3:16 or of Paul’s response to the Philippian jailor’s question about how to be saved (Acts 16:31.) On the other hand, who can explain how a Holy God/Man could take sin out of this world by dieing? (John 1:29 & 1John 3:5)

Salvation is extremely important to understand correctly, for the sake of one’s own salvation and, one would not want to preach a false belief. There is an Anathema (curse) on anyone (including angels or preachers) who teaches a different message of Salvation from what is taught in the New Testament. (This curse is referenced in Gal 1:6 thru 10.) The doctrine of Christianity, the teachings of Christ can be found in the Bible. The doctrine of Man, false teachings cannot!

Agreed.

The Gospels teach that true Salvation is that which is provided by God Himself through the sacrificial death of His Son Yeshua Christ. There is no other way that Man can be saved from eternal condemnation and enter into eternal life. (John 14:6 ) There is no other name that can be called upon for salvation. (Acts 4:12) Man alone can not save Himself, not through works, through deeds, or observance of Laws. Man can only be saved through the great love and grace of Yeshua. (Ephesians 2:4-10, Titus 2:11 & Titus 3:4 - 5, 2nd Timothy 1:9, John 3:16)

Agreed.

The Analogy of Salvation by the Apostle Paul

Propitiation

There are many facets to the meaning of Christ’s death, but the central one….without which the others have no eternal meaning is, the act of substitution. Christ was the only blameless person in a universe of those that had done wrong. This simply means that Christ died in the place of all those that had sinned and done wrong. The use of the Greek preposition “anti” can mean “in place of” or “against” and here it means “in the place of.” It is used, for instance, with this meaning in a passage that has nothing to do with the death of Christ. (Luke 11:11) But more significantly, it is used in a passage which gives our Lord’s own interpretation of the meaning of His death. (Matt. 20:28 Mark 10:45) His death, He said, “….was to be a payment in the place of many.”

However, another preposition, “huper”, is also used in the New Testament, and it has two meanings; sometimes it means “for the benefit of”’ and sometimes “in the place of.” Of course the death of Christ was both in our place and for our benefit, and there is no reason why “huper” when it is used in relation to His death does not include both concepts. (2nd Corinthians 5:21 and 1st Peter 3:18)

As you surely know, there are different theories for our redemption. Any one is correct because it's difficult to settle on one since all can be proven by scripture.

Redemption

Click to expand...

The doctrine of redemption is built on three words in the New Testament. The first is a simple word, which means “to buy or purchase or pay a price for something.” It is used for instance with this ordinary everyday meaning in the parable of the treasure hid in a field which motivated the man to buy (redeem) the field (Matt. 13:44). In relation to our salvation, the word means to pay the price, which our sins demanded so that we could be redeemed.

Click to expand...

I don't know if you're going to address this, but at this point, I would ask:
To whom do we pay the price?
I'm going to post a link I like in relation to the redemption theories:
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison

The second word is the same basic word indicated above, pre-fixed with a preposition, which has the force of intensifying the meaning. This can be easily expressed in English because the preposition means “out of” making the meaning of the second word, “to purchase out of the market.” Thus the idea in this second word is that Christ’s death not only paid the price for everyone sins and wrong doings, but also removed us from the marketplace of sin in order to give us full assurance that we will never be returned to the bondage and penalties of sin. (Colossians 1:14 & 2:14)

Click to expand...

Great.

The third word for redemption is an entirely different one. Its basic meaning is “to loose” and thus it signifies that the purchased person is also released and set free in the fullest sense. The means of this release is through the substitution Christ made. The basis is the blood of God’s own Son. The intent is to purify a people. Thus the “Doctrine of Redemption” is; Because of the shedding of the blood of Yeshua Christ, believers in Him have been purchased and removed from the bondage and curse of the Law, and liberated. (Eph. 1:7, Heb. 9:12 – 15, Gal. 3:12 & 5:1.)

Click to expand...

I understand that we are freed from the bondage to satan and sin.

Christ died once, for all sins. Once saved a Christian’s sins are forgiven and they are dead to sin. (Romans 6:10 & 11) Now were there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (Heb. 10:18) Meaning that not only can we not sin, there is no means of removing it. The last sacrifice has happened that ended it all.

Click to expand...

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Yeshua. For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Yeshua has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (Romans 8:1&2) The “Law of sin and of Death” being, Mosaic Laws. Romans 3:20, 4:15, 5:20&21, 7:5-12, 2nd Cor. 3:6&7

Click to expand...

I think it would be important to describe the Mosaic Law.
Do you include the 10 commandments and the two Jesus left us with?

“Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Yeshua Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.”
The Apostle Peter Acts 2:38&39

Click to expand...

Agreed.
In the baptism of JESUS
not that of John the Baptist.
Jesus' baptism has power.

Click to expand...

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

farouk said:
The beginning and end of Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith'. Obeying the Lord is by grace; it doesn't signify a works righteousness. Being under grace is a wondrous thing, indeed.

Persons were righteous of their own works in the O.T.
Psalm 1:5-6
Isaiah 64:5

Genesis 15:6
Abraham obeyed the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness.

In the New Testament....
We are imputed the righteousness of Christ.
HIS righteousness is OUR righteousness.

farouk · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Persons were righteous of their own works in the O.T.
Psalm 1:5-6
Isaiah 64:5

Genesis 15:6
Abraham obeyed the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness.

In the New Testament....
We are imputed the righteousness of Christ.
HIS righteousness is OUR righteousness.

I see any justification of people in the Old Testament as being by faith; Hebrews 11 shows this clearly, over and over.

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

justbyfaith said:
He gained nothing like he thought he would. He did not expect Jesus to rise from the dead.

Not sure I replied to this...

You said:
But it wasn't the Father who killed Jesus...it was most certainly the devil who sought His death 2,000 years ago.

I asked you what did satan gain?
your reply is: nothing like he though he would.

The fact is that satan might have thought he won the victory when Jesus died...but realized his great mistake at the resurrection.

However, it's not correct to say that satan killed Jesus.
If all those verses I posted don't convince you, I don't know what will.

Jesus was destined to die from the beginning of time.
God knew Adam would fail.
He made a solution for those that would want to be saved.
Jesus died to free us from the bondage of sin to satan and from the fear of death.

What scripture to you think states that satan killed Jesus?

Enoch111 · Jun 25, 2019

farouk said:
I see any justification of people in the Old Testament as being by faith; Hebrews 11 shows this clearly, over and over.

It is truly amazing that even though this chapter is found in the Bible, people do not understand the meaning of justification by grace through faith, and how it related to imputed righteousness. Every OT saint since Abel, and every NT saint was justified (saved) purely by grace through faith.

Helen · Jun 25, 2019

GerhardEbersoehn said:
And I dislike this grail hunting. Utterly!

To say that us very ignorant indeed, and hurtful.

Why on earth? ..what has he done to you!!

He is a very pleasant poster...much better than most on here!!

I will go to bat for him.

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

farouk said:
I see any justification of people in the Old Testament as being by faith; Hebrews 11 shows this clearly, over and over.

Agreed.
Persons were always saved by faith.
This is justification.

But if we want righteousness...
which only means being right with God...

Then in the O.T. we had to acquire our own righteousness...
In the N.T. we acquire the righteousness of Jesus.

Grailhunter · Jun 25, 2019

farouk said:
I see any justification of people in the Old Testament as being by faith; Hebrews 11 shows this clearly, over and over.

Could you please elaborate....the word justification does not appear in Hebrews.

farouk · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Agreed.
Persons were always saved by faith.
This is justification.

But if we want righteousness...
which only means being right with God...

Then in the O.T. we had to acquire our own righteousness...
In the N.T. we acquire the righteousness of Jesus.

I'm not sure where anyway in the OT ppl acquired a righteousness of their own which proved acceptable to God.

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

GerhardEbersoehn said:
And I dislike this grail hunting. Utterly!

Jesus said that the world will know we are HIS disciples because we love one another.

Hating someone is the same as murdering them.
Mathew 5:21-22

farouk · Jun 25, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Could you please elaborate....the word justification does not appear in Hebrews.

To be reckoned righteous is the sense. Hebrews 11 shows this.

Helen · Jun 25, 2019

justbyfaith said:
It was foreknown and foreordained from before the beginning of time; but surely Jesus died because the devil murdered Him.

Yikes, you really believe that? !!

Think about what you are saying...

We have probably hijacked poor H.Richard thread.

That would be another thread...go start one ..

I say NO WAY...no one "Murdered Jesus," least of all the Devil!!!

It SAYS...He LAID DOWN His life....

I will be looking for your new thread on this...

GodsGrace · Jun 25, 2019

farouk said:
I'm not sure where anyway in the OT ppl acquired a righteousness of their own which proved acceptable to God.

Let's see.
We are saved.....we are instantly justified.
In the O.T. persons had to work for them to be RIGHT WITH GOD.
When they sinned, they had to bring a sacrificial animal to the High Priest
to forgive them their sin. They touched the animal and the sin was transferred from the person to the animal.

In the New Testament Jesus died once and for all for forgiveness of sin.
We are saved...we are instantly justified.
Same as the O.T....by faith.
Ephesians 2:8

But in the N.T. we are automatically made RIGHT WITH GOD. Jesus covers our sins...we no longer need to sacrifice animals. Instead of us touching the sacrificial animal...Jesus touches us.

We are called to obey God..but we have now the Holy Spirit to help us do this.
This was not true in the O.T. The Holy Spirit always existed but He was not our paraclete. This is why the Law failed.

As long as we are IN CHRIST....we do not fear sin or death...
although we are called to live a holy life.

justbyfaith · Jun 25, 2019

GodsGrace said:
What scripture to you think states that satan killed Jesus?

I already told you...Satan entered into Judas Iscariot in order to accomplish the final betrayal of Jesus. Satan was directly responsible, therefore, for the crucifixion of the Son.

I suppose it brings up issues of predestination, whether it be according to foreknowledge or whether everything was specifically preordained by God.

I think that if everything was completely preordained by God, that that makes God the author of sin.

But God is only indirectly the author of sin; in that He created His creation with the positive attribute of free will; which had the capacity of turning to evil. As it is written:

Rom 8:20, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God gave man free will, knowing that it would result in evil; but He did so in the hope that those who would choose good might experience the ultimate good when all is said and done.

All this to say that God was not responsible for the death of Jesus. From the perspective of being outside of time, He knew it would happen; and He even foreordained it to happen because He knew it to be a perfect plan to redeem humanity.

But I will say that it was the devil who struck the blow that killed the Son of God.

To think otherwise is to not understand what happened in those days as is recorded in the gospels.

Grailhunter · Jun 25, 2019

"ByGrace" said:
Yikes, you really believe that? !!
Think about what you are saying...

We have probably hijacked poor H.Richard thread.

That would be another thread...go start one ..

I say NO WAY...no one "Murdered Jesus," least of all the Devil!!!

It SAYS...He LAID DOWN His life....

I will be looking for your new thread on this...

Got a couple questions...could we be saved without His crucifixion and would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

Helen · Jun 25, 2019

Grailhunter said:
Got a couple questions...could we be saved without His crucifixion and would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

Haha!! Not little questions. Big discussions.

1) No.

2) NO.....WITH qualifications.

We need to start a dedicated thread to it.... we have too many cross -conversations going on here...( NOT cross as in angry= different convos)

Will start a thread and tag everyone into it ...

Okay @GodsGrace @farouk @stunnedbygrace etc etc ??

Im sure we will have many different views

Smoke Screens?

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