Eze. 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make [them] fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, [even] the souls that ye hunt to make [them] fly.Pillows 1.band, fillet, covered amulets, false phylacteriesa) used by false prophetesses in Israel to support their demonic fortune-telling schemesThe Lord says I am against your fortune telling schemes of teaching souls to fly Is this not exactly what the theory; of the Rapture promises?
Rapture and Eze.13:20
- Thread starter Christina
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Kriss......not only have you taken this verse out of context.......but you have proven how desperate you are and to what length you will go to ridicule the word of GOD.........Shame on ya......Pop
How have I taken it out of context?This chapter is about false prophets false teachingsthe fact that Eze. 13:6 speaks of the "Day of the Lord" whitch puts it also in future tense so again I ask how it is out of context or is it you don't want to see it for the context it is in?
Its out of context for what you meant it Kriss......Your aim was to shed a negative light on those who hold to the promise that the believer would meet the LORD in the air......your walking on some dangerous ground....thats all......Pop.................oh by the way.......the word "fly" in this context means to run or flee. has nothing to do with leaving the ground therefore you are taking it out of context.
The rapture is nothing more than flight regardless of how you look at it. It's the easy way out; it's the way that's been created by man to make him feel safe. It's very applicable to what has been said in Ezekiel by the LORD.
Pop, when you study the Rapture in Church, which verses do you use to validate the Rapture doctrine?I'm not getting where this theory is coming from ( what verses in the Bible)?
Sorry Pops but you are wrong the heberw word in Strongs concordance means (see below) the only word meaning that fits here is to fly (as a bird in the air) Not Flee that is why it is translated FLY NOT FLEEHow does this put me on dangerous ground there is no attempt to claim this web site is anything but Anti Rapture you know that.I am sorry if this verse goes against your belief but it is God's words not mineThis was not directed at you personally it was for all who are falsley led to believe in the Rapture You are free to Not to beleive what it says.But it does say it. One of the reasons this site was founded was to disspell the Rapture Lie by spreading the truth if that offends you I'm sorry but teaching it offends God1) to cause to bud or sprout2) to show buds or sprouts2) (Qal) to break out (of leprosy)3) (Qal) to fly
Ross...........I will give you scripture although I have posted scripture many times so far...I would also reccommend you read my post entitled..."Christ could come at any moment" which realy sheds light as to why the believer should be anticipating HIS coming to translate the Church...which is a better word than rapture eventhough rapture means to be caught up......The early church anticipated the bodily return of our LORD before the seven year tribulation...1 thess 4:16..titus 2:13....to translate the Church from this earth...john 14:1-3...1cor 15:51-53..1 thess4:15-5;11...and, between this event and HIS glorious return with HIs saints, to reward believers according to their works(not salvation)...1 cor 3:11-15...2cor 5:10Immediately following the the removal of the Church from the earth ..john 14:1-3..1 thess4:13-18..the righteous judgments of GOD will be poured out upon an unbelieving world..jer 3:7..dan 9:27..12:1 2 thess 2:7-12..rev 16...and that these judgments will be climaxed by the return of Christ in glory to the earth..Matt 24:27-31..25:31-46..2 thess 2:7-12..At that time the Old Teatament and tribulation saints will be raised and the living will be judged..dan 12:2,3..rev 20:4-6. This period includes the seventieth week of Daniels prophecy..Dan 9:24-27..Matt 24:15-31..25:31-46After the tribulation period, Christ will come to earth to occupy the throne of David..matt 25:31..luke 1:32,33..acts 1:10,11..2:29,30..and establish HIS messianic Kingdom for a thousand years on the earth..rev 20:1-7..At this time(during) the resurrected saints will reign with HIM over Israel and all the nations of earth..ezk 37:21-28..dan 7:17-22..rev 10:11-16..This reign will be preceeded by the overthrow of the antichrist and the false prophet, and by the removal of satan from the world..dan 7:17-27..rev 20:1-6...The Kingdom itself will be the fulfillment of GODS promise to Israel.. Is 65:17-25..ezk37:21-28..zech 8:1-17.... to restore them to the land which they lost through their disobedience..deut28:15-68......There is much more to share Ross but this should keep you busy...please study these verse's for yourself...DO not take my word for it.....be a good Berean......thanks for asking...by the way to answer your question concerning teaching this in Church..NO we do not....Thank GOD the church which I am a member, in obedience to the word, dwells on CHRIST and HIM crucified...the Sovereignty of GOD and the Doctrines of grace.....Kriss....I will stand by my interpretation of the word fly...but it matters not if I am wrong or right...the point of my writing was to point out that YES it does offend me to see some making light of ones beliefe that we(the believer) will meet the LORD in the air for that is exactly what the word teaches. It is not my pride that is offended but my spirit for one can poke fun at me all day long...Im a tuff old nut.....but when one pokes fun at the word of GOD it makes my heart cry out in such a way as I did........I fully understand the view of this forum concerning these matters..but I have a platform(which I am thankful for) to offer a different view.....to tell you the truth there is many subjects to talk about other than this one that are much more important such as salvation...justification,,,atonement...sanctification...attributes of GOD and of course HIS glorious grace and mercy...........regards...Pop
Pops I assure I was not poking fun I take this very serious I don't know how you can assume I do not take my belief as seriously as you take yours God's word is not a Joke and I was poking fun at nothing nor anyone I do not believe in the Rapture doctrine from the bottom of my soul and what God has put in my heart. It is you who has it wrong and therefore has Gods word wrong in my opinion, That IS NO LAUGHING matter to me I think you are a truly faithful man following what you believe and I would ask the same respect from you whether you agree with me or not. I refuse to compromise on what I know to be true because it goes against yours and others beliefs if you call that poking fun you are sorely mistaken
The concordance and the Hebrew agree that the word is Literally Fly meaning Flynot flee and does not mean flee this is what the word NOT KRISS says. You can choose not to believe it but in essence you are saying that you will pick and choose which of Gods words you believe .And 1 Thess. was corrected in 2nd thess. and even alot of bible teachers that believe in the rapture have agreed 1st thess. Is not about the Rapture. No one is denying Christ will come but at the seventh triumph and not before as scripture states it is timing here we are debating.STRONGS CONCORDANCE fly #06524 specifically states that in Eze 13:20 this word means to flyWikipideaThe second epistle to the Thessalonians was probably written from Corinth, Greece not many months after the first. Apparently the first letter was misunderstood, especially regarding the second advent of Christ. The Thessalonians had embraced the idea that Paul had taught that "the day of Christ was at hand", that Christ's coming was about to occur. This error is corrected (2:1-12), and the apostle announces what first must take place before the end times. The "Great Apostasy" is first mentioned here.The great apostacy falling away (coming of Satan/Anti-christ) must occur First
PopsYou know that Rapture was rejected by the church until 30 to 40 years ago then there was the argument of Pre tribulation,Mid tribulation,Post tribulationthen some few years ago they finally settled on pre-tribulation and the only verse they used to support this was 1st Thess. but that being so easy to disprove they searched until they could find some other verse's to take and twist to try to prove their reasoning All ministries that didn't agree about rapture were slowly pushed out now you are told that if you want a T.V. ministry you will teach Rapture I know of two that were anti rapture and told they either changed to preach rapture or give up there ministries sense when do you have to be blackmailed to preach man word over Gods. Isaiah says it is the minister,preachers that will be judged first because they have led Gods people astray. Now There are good churches and ministers you teach rapture out of nativity simply because they are taught that in school and do not question it. But that fact doesn't make it true its still a mans teaching not God's word. Will Christ come an change us all in the twinkling of an eye YES but after the falling away,at the seventh trump,As the word says,I AM AGAINST THOSE WHO HUNT SOULS TO TEACH MY CHILDREN TO FLY(AWAY)How much plainer can he make it.
Kriss,I haven't gone thru all of the scripture that Pop gave, but so far it looks like they believe that Christ is coming twice at the end.1 Corinthians 15:52Says this will happen at the last trump.There are 7 trumps; the 6 trump is when the antichrist comes and Christ is coming at the 7th-the last trump.
this typical Rapture doctrine Ros that Christ comes gathers his church in the air (takes them out of this world) then after everything is all over Christ returns with the church at the last trump (7th trump) to set up his kingdom on earth.That way avoiding the effort of teaching the meat of God's word also excluding most of Revelation, and half of prophecy and send the masses home with happy little faces looking up instead of in to God's word.
Hi Kriss, Yes, I went thru the scriptures that Pop gave me.So here goes:All the scriptures to validate the doctrine don't. All the scriptures state is that Christ will return, period. The following scriptures refute his rapture theory.1 Corinthians 15:52 Notice the words: LAST TRUMPThere are 7 trumps ( REV. ) Christ will come at the last trump.The antichrist comes at the 6 trump.Luke 21:27-28Christ will come with power and great glory, not sneaking out of here with some believersLuke 17:24As lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven .....It won't be in secret2 Thessalonians 2:3-4THE EVIL ONE COMES FIRST**************************
Well, I call it the ever changing face of the rapture - it seems that this doctrine continues to shape and mold itself as Biblical study brings to light the often-cited so called "rapture verses." (I digress a bit here, but what else does that remind you of?)The simple fact is the verse found in I Corinthians 15 was probably the most cited verse in favor of the rapture. Quite frankly, any reading of the verse gives no other timeline than the last trump so for arguments sake look at Revelation and the last trump is the 7th trump of God when Christ returns. There are no other trumps and you can see the end result of the 7th trump starting at Revelation 11:15. This is clearly the same event in I Corinthians 15 and Revelation 11. There's no way around it besides lies and deceit. One can scream ungodly all they want, but the Scriptures don't like frankly and I'll take my chances with what they say over what man says anyday. I like my odds, it's the safest bet you'll ever make.Now the "rapturists" have shifted to the notion that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are Jews in the modern sense. If that were the case, why this line?Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.It's Gr. anthropos which means mankind in the entire sense of the word. These 144,000 are indeed drawn for the descendants of the House of Israel as Scripture affirms. However, we are often ignorant of our history and do not know where we came from. The so-called "10 lost tribes" of Israel are only lost to us in our own ignorance. They migrated across the Caucus Mountains and came to be called Caucasians.
Could you brethren make your arguments by perhaps explaining your position on the matter instead of making all these acusations about how wrong it is for one to believe the promises of or LORD considering the Church not being appointed to wrath. I hear arguments that say the Church rejected the idea of the rapture 30 or 40 years ago....why stop there...tell me, and other readers, which group your speaking of....indeed there are differences amongst GODs people.....but it is evident that the early churches waited patiently for the soon return of our LORD.... the statements about some trying to avoid the meat of GOD by teaching this truth has no context whatsoever in this particular conversation....Surely I have displayed some knowledge of the meat of the word in my arguments....something sure has you folks rowed up....as a matter of fact I have overwhelmingly offerd MORE scriptural proof of my stand on the matter. At least you know what my position is. All I know about your position is that you detest the thought of JESUS CHRIST coming to rescue HIS Church from wrath as HE promises and as the early Church expected each moment.....Let me ask you something....Do you expect JESUS to come at any moment?..when you wake in the morning is your first thought "this may be the day the LORD comes?....I tell you ...it better be......BUT...alas how can it be?...NO you look for the antichrist and the days of judgment.....brethren this is not scriptural. I have offered you many scriptures that you ignore and much reasoning you choose not to responed to... for example....and most important...how do you explain the early church looking for HIS imminent coming.....I gave quite a lengthy post or two covering that matter....no response at all from you brethren but to in so may words point out what a silly man I am to believe something so obviously valid.....one other....explain why paul thought he may be caught up alive to be with the LORD....................regards.Pop
PopsIt is you who ignore what is right in front of you we present scripture you say wheres the scriptureTo answer your question, No the Lord isn't coming any day not until the tribulation is over after the falling away remember when we showed you scripture that said FIRST yet you ignore it we show you scripture that says God's is against the fly (meet in air) doctrine even though every translation weather it be KJV ,NIV whatever can translate it no other way you say I don't believe it.We show you scripture that says the lord will return at the last trump you ignore it.You continue to quote 1st thess. as proof yet in 2nd Thess. Paul makes it clear that he was misunderstood that the Lord will not return till AFTER the great apostasy. I even showed you in an encyclopedia what it says as a second witness yet you refuse to believe it So you don't believe God's word, you don't believe the Hebrew,you don't believe the concordance, you don't believe Pauls own words, you dont believe the encyclopedia,you don't believe us, but you Do believe some man from 1800 and some men who run the church whats wrong with that picture Pops? If you take away all the 1st Thess Scripture, and read whats left there is nothing that says anything about Christs coming for the church before the end of tribulation.Yes, you know some of the meat of Gods word but some of it you have wrong because you believe it to say something it does not and some you don't know at all because you think you are not going to be here. I tell you on judgement day when you stand before God and he says Pops why were you fooled into following Anti-christ /Satan and you say well my church leaders said I didn't need to learn it cause we were supposed to be gone.God is going to say something like did I not send you my Word ? did you not read it ? did I not forewarn you of all things? so you would know what to expect. Why did you follow the words of men instead of my letter(book) to you.Whats your answer going to be Pops ? Well it just seemed so much easier to believe I was going to fly away ?Putting on my Gospel armor and having to be a warrior for God was just to difficult for me?Do you not have enough Faith to know God will protect his own even during the tribulation period ?Did he protect Daniel in the lions den or fly him away ?did he protect Daniel in the fiery furnace or fly him away ?do you think he expects less from us? Is the church worthy if it has so little faith?that is has to teach a fly away doctrine? Ask yourself these questions Pop Then ask yourself what you have to lose to just listen with an open mind to what we teach.Whats the harm if its God's word. It isnt going to stop you from flying otta here if he comes and if he doesn't you will be prepared
II Thessalonians 2:1-11Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:If you choose to ignore this then by all means go right ahead because that has no affect on me. Believe me, I pray that everyone will come to realize the danger of the idea of the rapture, but I fear most simply won't because it's the easy way to go.The funny thing is, Pops, is I have directly responded to almost every piece of Scriptural documentation that you have given. You're responses have been the ones to dodge the bullet and jump to another verse or verses.And quite frankly, we've made the arguments that you continue to ignore. Then you decide to take a potshot at us by posting in the Welcome Forum about your beliefs.Forget the meat, the prophecy is given to you in milk. Two verses confirm that Christ returns once at the final trump and you merely have to flip over to Revelation to see that there are seven trumps and you are also provided with a description of how it works each time.
I hear arguments that say the Church rejected the idea of the rapture 30 or 40 years ago
A little backwards, but the notion of the Rapture came to be in about the mid 19th century and then took off from there. Up until about half a century (a little less, I believe) ago, it didn't have the full grip it has today. What really gets me is that a 15 year old girl had this vision of a pre-trib. rapture as well. It was only written down about 30 years later. Give me God's Word anyday over that.
All I know about your position is that you detest the thought of JESUS CHRIST coming to rescue HIS Church from wrath as HE promises and as the early Church expected each moment.....Let me ask you something....Do you expect JESUS to come at any moment?
I know you have been provided with the links. If you cannot gather our "position" from the Bible itself, the Rapture Lie Bible Study or our page about the Rapture, I don't know what else to tell you.Now to your desperation argument. All this is going to come into play very quickly. The antichrist is going to rise and be a very appealing man to those who are not well versed in Scripture. So yes, the coming of Christ is going to be exactly as he and Paul said it would be - he's coming back like a thief in the night meaning at anytime and you absolutely have to be on your toes against the deceit.
explain why paul thought he may be caught up alive to be with the LORD
I've covered this twice now. Look at the timeline given to you by the Apostle Paul - the last trump. The answer is there. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there.Kriss summed up anything else I'd have to say at this point.
I hear arguments that say the Church rejected the idea of the rapture 30 or 40 years ago
A little backwards, but the notion of the Rapture came to be in about the mid 19th century and then took off from there. Up until about half a century (a little less, I believe) ago, it didn't have the full grip it has today. What really gets me is that a 15 year old girl had this vision of a pre-trib. rapture as well. It was only written down about 30 years later. Give me God's Word anyday over that.
All I know about your position is that you detest the thought of JESUS CHRIST coming to rescue HIS Church from wrath as HE promises and as the early Church expected each moment.....Let me ask you something....Do you expect JESUS to come at any moment?
I know you have been provided with the links. If you cannot gather our "position" from the Bible itself, the Rapture Lie Bible Study or our page about the Rapture, I don't know what else to tell you.Now to your desperation argument. All this is going to come into play very quickly. The antichrist is going to rise and be a very appealing man to those who are not well versed in Scripture. So yes, the coming of Christ is going to be exactly as he and Paul said it would be - he's coming back like a thief in the night meaning at anytime and you absolutely have to be on your toes against the deceit.
explain why paul thought he may be caught up alive to be with the LORD
I've covered this twice now. Look at the timeline given to you by the Apostle Paul - the last trump. The answer is there. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it's not there.Kriss summed up anything else I'd have to say at this point.
First of all I want you to know the posting that was listed in the welcome page was an honest mistake on my part and not a "potshot" as Fox puts it.....thanks for directing it to the proper spance..... I have SO much I would like to respond to in detail but at this stage in the debate I feel it would be a waste....so I will respond briefly just to set the record straight.... One problem of our coming close to agreeing is the term "The day of the LORD".....I fully agree and understand that the Day of the LORD is a time of wrath, divine judgment,day of visitation, the great day of GOD Almighty. Your conviction is that the elect believer will suffer those days/be present in those days...mine is that they will not......I declare that you disregard the verses that speak of HIS imminent return.....you declare I misinterpret these verses. We are at a moment in a debate where we become bogged down. I fully understand the frustration that can be generated on both sides of a argument when this happens......YOUR DEAD WRONG, I say......IM DEAD WRONG, you say. There are some things I do want to leave you with.....First....a statement was made concerning Pop before GOD....I will tell you that the order of the end times will not be an issue....If I am wrong in what I feel GOD has revealed and it becomes a sin for me....MY LORD and SAVIOR has taken care of that for me....GOD will see HIM in me... there will be no admonishment from GOD....for I am kept in HIM.......Now I must say that NO you did not address ALL the thoughts I brought forth in this conversation...you(collectively) did not address the Elders in heaven....Pauls rewards and his statements concerning when he would receive them....the fact HIS return is imminent (in detail)......The most telling/revealing statement in this debate is without a doubt is Kriss's response to believing the LORD could be coming at any moment....to deny this ONLY points to one who is a babe in CHRIST and does not fully understand the CHRISTIANS hope. The point made by Ross and all of you collectively concerning the last trump is also a misunderstanding....in 1thess 4 paul mentions the "trumpet of GOD"..this is the last trump he is refering to in 1 cor 15:52....This is not the judgment trumpets of rev 8-11, but is illustrated by the trumpet of Ex 19:16-19, which called the people out of the camp to meeet GOD. It will be a trumpet of DELIVERANCE. see also..Zeph 1:16 and ZECH 9:14.So with that I exit from the debate....I will take advantage of posting from time to time in the room...but I am shaking the dust off my feet where this subject is concerned. I only hope that perhaps the LORD will intervene and put that blessed hope of HIS returning to rescue HIS Church, from wrath as HE promised, in your hearts.....................Pop
Kriss's response to believing the LORD could be coming at any moment....to deny this ONLY points to one who is a babe in CHRIST and does not fully understand the CHRISTIANS hope.
Similar threads
