The Cross and The Devil

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Helen

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Could we say that God allowed satan's hand...
rather than that God directed it?

God directed it makes it sound like God advises the devil as to what actions he (the devil) should take.

??

Hmmm I like that :)

I like anything that causes me to ‘think’.

Let my dwell on that one...will get back to you on it...x x
 
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Helen

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Could we say that God allowed satan's hand...
rather than that God directed it?

God directed it makes it sound like God advises the devil as to what actions he (the devil) should take.

??

Been musing on this. You are probs in bed now. Sweet dreams. x

Yes I think we can say that.

I was reminded of Job. When God says "have you considered My servant Job.." Then He tells Satan you can have him, but you cannot touch his life.

First we know that God saw the end from the beginning... and we have the Temptation in the Wilderness. Satan moved Herod to try and kill Jesus , all those children under two years old.

So yes, it was always Satan's attempt to kill Him.

We know that the Devil knows scripture , we quoted it to Jesus...so we know that he knew about the cross 'way back' in the OT .

  • Bible Prophecy: Psalm 41:9 says, "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."
  • Fulfillment: Mark 14:10 says, "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them."
Psalm 22:1-2 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent."

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 says, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Psalm 22:17-18 says, "I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

"Fulfillment: John 19:23 says, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom."

And, as it was within God's Plan, God obviously did not say to Satan 'you cannot touch his life.'

We know it was a choice of Jesus...as has been said...He asked for the 'cup to be removed...but not My will, Yours be done...'

John 6 38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
It was His choice to choose God.

Like us, free to be bound.

He told the 12 disciples , that He had to go to Jerusalem :-

Matt 16 "From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. "
That doesn't sound like "the Devil did it to Him"...not at all.

Interesting isn't,it seems to be another case of not 'either v or'...but BOTH. :)
 
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marks

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I’ve read and understand that Jesus gave his life to save us from damnation, started by the original sin of Adam and Eve, the Devil did not have the power to kill Christ.

Lucifer was jealous of the fact that Jesus Christ being the son of God, had the say and preference of God.

Let us create man in our image, and did God not give us preference over Lucifer, which made Lucifer insanely jealous?

I think so. I think Satan's sin at the first was envy. Here he was, created a powerful and amazing spirit being, and then . . . God stoops down, pats together some dirt, and breathes life. He takes the man in His hands, stands him to his feet, and looks with love on His creation. (OK, my way of thinking of this . . .)

And then this angelic being we call Satan learns . . . all of This exists for . . . them??? The dirt people? NO WAY! I will be like the Most High, not them! I will . . . not them! (Again, my thinking here . . .)

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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Gosh. Should we release all prisoners that have murdered because satan did it?

It depends on whether they had consciousness and will when they committed the crime; and/or whether they can find deliverance from the demonic influences that caused them to commit the crime.
 

justbyfaith

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Been musing on this. You are probs in bed now. Sweet dreams. x

Yes I think we can say that.

I was reminded of Job. When God says "have you considered My servant Job.." Then He tells Satan you can have him, but you cannot touch his life.

First we know that God saw the end from the beginning... and we have the Temptation in the Wilderness. Satan moved Herod to try and kill Jesus , all those children under two years old.

So yes, it was always Satan's attempt to kill Him.

We know that the Devil knows scripture , we quoted it to Jesus...so we know that he knew about the cross 'way back' in the OT .

  • Bible Prophecy: Psalm 41:9 says, "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."
  • Fulfillment: Mark 14:10 says, "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them."
Psalm 22:1-2 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent."

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 says, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Psalm 22:17-18 says, "I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

"Fulfillment: John 19:23 says, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom."

And, as it was within God's Plan, God obviously did not say to Satan 'you cannot touch his life.'

We know it was a choice of Jesus...as has been said...He asked for the 'cup to be removed...but not My will, Yours be done...'

John 6 38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
It was His choice to choose God.

Like us, free to be bound.

He told the 12 disciples , that He had to go to Jerusalem :-

Matt 16 "From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. "
That doesn't sound like "the Devil did it to Him"...not at all.

Interesting isn't,it seems to be another case of not 'either v or'...but BOTH. :)
Do you think that the devil understood these prophecies that foretold the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

See John 1:5 (kjv).
 

justbyfaith

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I think that God the Father gave His Son as a ransom for all...1 Timothy 2:6.

The devil required Jesus' death in return for releasing the prisoners that he had captivated by sin.
 

amadeus

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
Very simply, no, because no one of us, the rest of the lost, could resurrect anyone. We were dead and the dead can do nothing.

2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
He was never dead until he lay down his life. There was no death in him... only the potential that Adam and Eve had prior their disobedience. The potential he has was to sin. He never changed that potential into reality so, no, even if he were only a man he would not have died even as Adam and Eve would not have died if they had not brought death on themselves and their offspring. Jesus was the son of God as Adam was the son of God. Jesus chose Life by his actions. Adam chose death by his actions.

No one could have killed Jesus if he had chosen to disregard the Father's will but the question itself is, to put it mildly, problematic. There is a real problem in answering any hypothetical question, but this one reaches beyond our comprehension without God's help. Would He help us answer such a question? But... sometimes trying to answer even an impossible hypothetical question might be edifying for someone.

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" Matt 26:53


Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?
I don't like the question which presumes too much considering how little I know.
Has satan ever killed any man? Men have killed men? Is satan a man? What is satan? Does satan have any reality outside the mind or heart of men?

Traditional interpretations of some Bible verses used to describe satan leave contradictions and unanswered questions. How many assumptions were necessary to come up with any reasonable idea of what or who satan is supposed to be? Are any of the ideas even reasonable? Did anyone get a revelation from God about who or what satan is?


So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
 
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justbyfaith

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Has satan ever killed any man?

Indeed he has:

Heb 2:14, Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15, And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jhn 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
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Enoch111

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Is satan a man? What is satan? Does satan have any reality outside the mind or heart of men?
It appears that you do not believe in the reality of Satan, and that he is just a figment of the imagination. You should know from Scripture that that is total nonsense. Satan is an evil fallen angel and the epitome of evil in Scripture. He is also the king of all evil spirits, "the prince of the power of the air", with countless evil angels at his beck and call. And he can certainly take the form of a man if he so wishes. Or appear as an angel of light. It may very well be that he visited both Muhammad and Joseph Smith pretending to be the angel Gabriel (Jibril in Arabic). He can also take possession of men, as he did with Judas Iscariot, and as he well may do with the coming Antichrist.

So how is it that with all your Bible knowledge, you are at sea about who Satan is? He was behind the scheme to have Christ put to death. At the same time it was God's perfect predetermined will that the Lamb of God would die on the cross and shed His blood for our redemption.
 
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JohnPaul

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It appears that you do not believe in the reality of Satan, and that he is just a figment of the imagination. You should know from Scripture that that is total nonsense. Satan is an evil fallen angel and the epitome of evil in Scripture. He is also the king of all evil spirits, "the prince of the power of the air", with countless evil angels at his beck and call. And he can certainly take the form of a man if he so wishes. Or appear as an angel of light. It may very well be that he visited both Muhammad and Joseph Smith pretending to be the angel Gabriel (Jibril in Arabic). He can also take possession of men, as he did with Judas Iscariot, and as he well may do with the coming Antichrist.

So how is it that with all your Bible knowledge, you are at sea about who Satan is? He was behind the scheme to have Christ put to death. At the same time it was God's perfect predetermined will that the Lamb of God would die on the cross and shed His blood for our redemption.
Hi Enoch, hope you are well.

Satan, Lucifer and the Devil, are the same evil entity correct?

I believe the Devil exists, how can I not if I believe God and Jesus Christ exist?
 
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Soverign Grace

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Agree
We read
1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
"

Rev 13 :8 " And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. "

For me, Satan was but a tool, just as Judas was a tool ...to accomplish what God had Planned and intended from before the beginning.

So...I say, Satan did what God intended him to do.

Isa 53 "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him. " He saw the travail of his soul, and was satisfied "
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, he shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand
."

So..the GodHead did it. I can never see anything else.

It was Plan A from the beginning to bring forth union between God and His creation.
Nothing but the Blood would do it.

I agree with that - that Satan was but a tool, as was Judas. But your post brought up another question that I have had a hard time squaring with an omnipotent God that one might ask prior to your question or after it. There have been generations of pain and sorrow from the sin of Adam and Eve that just don't seem justified to me and I've told God that. (I'm like Jacob and wrestle with God:)

I had a neighbor who had some harsh things happen in her life: her first husband beat her and cheated on her. She lost her husband to cancer and was left a widow in an old lonely farm house. Her grandson was shot to death by police. She called me and would always complain about Adam and Eve causing all this. She wasn't a Christian and I was but I really didn't know what to say. How could a sinless Creator create an angel that had sin - the devil? And how could he create living beings - Adam & Eve - who had the propensity to sin? So your question naturally, I believe, would lead to even deeper questions.
 
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brakelite

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KJV Acts 7
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

So who murdered Jesus? Obviously those murderers were inspired to obey the wishes of Satan, but they don't escape responsibility. However, they would have never succeeded except Jesus laid down His life... Which He did not have to do. At no time was He under anyones control.
 
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CNKW3

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
No, no,
The third one I would say no. Christ gave his life. Nobody took it from him. He had the power to defeat every last one of them but he chose to suffer and die.
 

Taken

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and

Answer: YES.

Yes, without His CRUCIFIXION....
No, without His DEATH...

Explanation:
Men were SAVED By the DEATH of the "WORD of GOD"...BEFORE the WORD, appeared IN A FLESH BODY.

Men ALSO had to BECOME Physically DEAD, BEFORE they RECEIVED their SALVATION.

Scriptural:
The Earth was Created.
THEN during the "MAKING" of the "FOUNDATION" of the Earth...
The "WORD of God" was KILLED "BY":
The FIRST "MURDERER"....Lucifer.

ANY Direct opposition to the "WORD of GOD",
Is an ACT of KILLING the WORD of GOD, by MAKING the Word of God.... A LIE.

Lucifer, was the FIRST Murderer, and the FIRST Liar....when he THOUGHT he could RISE UP "ABOVE" Gods Absolute Authority and Power.

Once the Word of God, was Manifested IN THE FLESH likeness As a Man...

Mankind was GIVEN a MYSTERIOUS OFFERING, that "IF" a man were to ACCEPT, Jesus' OFFERING OF "HIS BODY" unto Death, via Crucifixion; such a man COULD ALSO BE ACCOUNTED BODILY DEAD, fulfilling that mans requirement to DIE ONCE.....AND....
Such man WOULD RECEIVE, the Lords OFFERING OF "SALVATION"...Right THEN...
BEFORE the mans PHYSICAL DEATH.


2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?

God Prepared A BODY, for the Word of God, to TAKE UPON HIMSELF, for the EXPRESS PURPOSE to OFFER that BODY unto DEATH.

So, YES, that BODY WOULD BE KILLED.
Jesus' SOUL and SPIRIT, have always BEEN Everlasting/Eternal; and Suffered NO HARM, when His BODY was Offered unto Death.

It was Gods WILL that Body be Offered.
It was Gods WILL "the TIMING" of WHEN that Body would be Crucified.

Remember, when men on the street wanted to stone Jesus, and he ducked away? That was not the Time for His Body to be Offered.


3) Did Satan kill Him?

His Body? No.
Gods Word, (in the beginning ? Via a Thought Lucifer had? ) Yes.

Jews DID NOT have the authority (under Roman rule,) to exercise their own laws of killing a man who blasphemed God.

The Jewish Pharisees, appealed to the Roman authorities, to Arrest Jesus, for violating a Roman Law....as the Pharisees Claimed Jesus was a Instigator, gathering of mixed crowds for and against Him, and that would Lead to RIOTING....which instigating a Riot "WAS a violation of Roman Law".

And there are more details about THAT ^^, of how Jesus' actually came to be Crucified...BY the Desire of Jewish Pharisees...and the Authority of the Romans.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

GodsGrace

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Hi Enoch, hope you are well.

Satan, Lucifer and the Devil, are the same evil entity correct?

I believe the Devil exists, how can I not if I believe God and Jesus Christ exist?


Devil Hebrew
Liar, slanderer



Devil [N]
(Gr. diabolos), a slanderer, the arch-enemy of man's spiritual interest ( Job 1:6 ; Revelation 2:10 ;Zechariah 3:1 ). He is called also "the accuser of the brethen" ( Revelation 12:10 ).

In Leviticus 17:7 the word "devil" is the translation of the Hebrew sair , meaning a "goat" or "satyr" ( Isaiah 13:21 ; 34:14 ), alluding to the wood-daemons, the objects of idolatrous worship among the heathen.

In Deuteronomy 32:17 and Psalms 106:37 it is the translation of Hebrew shed , meaning lord, and idol, regarded by the Jews as a "demon," as the word is rendered in the Revised Version.

In the narratives of the Gospels regarding the "casting out of devils" a different Greek word (daimon) is used. In the time of our Lord there were frequent cases of demoniacal possession ( Matthew 12:25-30; Mark 5:1-20 ; Luke 4:35 ; 10:18 , etc.).



These dictionary topics are from
M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Third Edition,
published by Thomas Nelson, 1897. Public Domain, copy freely.[N] indicates this entry was also found in Nave's Topical Bible
indicates this entry was also found in Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
indicates this entry was also found in Smith's Bible Dictionary
Bibliography Information
Easton, Matthew George. "Entry for Devil". "Easton's Bible Dictionary". .

Dictionaries - King James Dictionary - Devil
Devil


Slanderer; false accuser.
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a DEVIL? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. ( John 6:70-71 )

Source: A King James Dictionary. (Used with permission. Copyright © Philip P. Kapusta)Bibliography Information
"Entry for 'Devil'". A King James Dictionary.

Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Devil
Devil [N] [E]
(slanderer ). The name describes Satan as slandering God to man and man to God. The former work is of course, a part of his great work of temptation to evil and is not only exemplified but illustrated as to its general nature and tendency by the narrative of Gen. 3. The other work, the slandering or accusing men before God, is the imputation of selfish motives, ( Job 1:9 Job 1:10 ) and its refutation is placed in the self-sacrifice of those "who loved not their own lives unto death." [SATAN; DEMON]


ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
Satan Hebrew
Adversary
(no word for satan in Hebrew. It means adversary)

The word Satan is the English transliteration of a Hebrew word for “adversary” in the Bible. With the definite article, the Hebrew word denotes “the adversary” par excellence, mainly in the Book of Job, where the adversary comes to the heavenly court with the “sons of God.” His task is to roam through the earth (like a contemporaneous Persian official) seeking out acts or persons to be reported adversely (to the king); his function thus is the opposite of that of the “eyes of the Lord,” which roam through the earth strengthening all that is good.
 
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GodsGrace

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It depends on whether they had consciousness and will when they committed the crime; and/or whether they can find deliverance from the demonic influences that caused them to commit the crime.
What if they did NOT have consciousness and will?
Would you turn them loose?

How could one tell if a murderer has had deliverance from a demonic influence?

Would YOU want this guy living next door to YOU?
 
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