The Cross and The Devil

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Enoch111

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Yes, I would say that SIN put the Messiah--the Lamb of God--on the Cross.
True. But ultimately Christ chose to be nailed to that cross. He willingly and voluntarily became the Lamb of God and the cross became the metaphorical altar of sacrifice. And this decision was made by God and Christ before the foundation of the world. Had He chosen to avoid the cross, He could have easily done so with ten thousand angels doing His bidding. And He also chose Judas Iscariot to ultimately betray him, knowing that this man was a devil and the Son of Perdition.

But the sacrifice of Christ was according to the predetermination and foreknowledge of God. Therefore the Messianic psalms prophesied the exact details of the crucifixion. At the same time, God held the wicked Jews accountable for the murder of Christ. So all these things need to be properly reconciled and understood.

And then He was made SIN for us who knew no sin. God the Father laid upon Him the Son the iniquity of us all. And it was all the sins of all mankind. Thus it became "the sin [singular] of the world". And as John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). This one verse refutes Calvinistic Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

Jesus also compared Himself to the Brazen Serpent which Moses placed upon the pole. Simply looking at the Serpent was sufficient to prevent an Israelite from dying of snake venom. When a sinner looks upon the Lamb of God with absolute faith in Him and what He accomplished for that sinner personally, that becomes saving faith.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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True. But ultimately Christ chose to be nailed to that cross. He willingly and voluntarily became the Lamb of God and the cross became the metaphorical altar of sacrifice. And this decision was made by God and Christ before the foundation of the world. Had He chosen to avoid the cross, He could have easily done so with ten thousand angels doing His bidding. And He also chose Judas Iscariot to ultimately betray him, knowing that this man was a devil and the Son of Perdition.

But the sacrifice of Christ was according to the predetermination and foreknowledge of God. Therefore the Messianic psalms prophesied the exact details of the crucifixion. At the same time, God held the wicked Jews accountable for the murder of Christ. So all these things need to be properly reconciled and understood.

And then He was made SIN for us who knew no sin. The God the Father laid upon Him the Son the iniquity of us all. And it was all the sins of all mankind. Thus it became "the sin [singular] of the world". And as John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). This one verse refutes Calvinistic Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

Jesus also compared Himself to the Brazen Serpent which Moses placed upon the pole. Simply looking at the Serpent was sufficient to prevent an Israelite from dying of snake venom. When a sinner looks up the Lamb of God with absolute faith in Him and what He accomplished for that sinner personally, that becomes saving faith.

Yes, I mentioned that in my post--that Jesus needed to willingly choose to give His life as a ransom for many and that God knew exactly--every detail--of the plan of salvation. Yes--from the foundation of the world.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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"marks,
Mark 3
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Hi Anthony,

Hello Mark,

[Do you have a different take on this passage?]
Yes....I can see where you get that idea from the Mark passage.

[It looks to me that Jesus is saying all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men.]
Here it is in Mt.12;
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mark, The passage is saying all manner of sin, ie, lying, stealing, gossip, etc would be forgiven. It is not saying all sins of all men are in view here.;


[This would fit right along with that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And how that God is Just to forgive . . . seeing as all sin was paid for.]

All sin is not paid for,only the sin of the Covenant children , given by the Father to the Son.
Not everyone in the world was reconciled to God. The scope goes worldwide as the children are scattered worldwide


[But being forgiven isn't enough for us to have life. We must be born again, born of the Spirit, born of God.]

The only forgiven persons are born from above persons.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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marks,

[Hi Anthony,

A question on this if I may,

Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

It seems to me this says that God, by His determinate counsel and advance knowledge, that God delivered Jesus into the hands of the Jews, who handed Jesus over to the Romans to be killed.

Are you seeing something different there?]

Biblical "foreknowledge" is of persons not events. It is not Gods omniscience being spoken of.

His DETERMINATE COUNSEL was ordaining the Cross took place right on time;

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Every aspect of the cross was decreed to come to pass

1] the Suffering Servant was "foreknown"Isa40-54

2 ] The wickedness of the sinners..psalm2

3] The raising from the dead

4]The Ascension
 

marks

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Biblical "foreknowledge" is of persons not events. It is not Gods omniscience being spoken of.

Hi Anthony,

One more question, please,

If God were to want to say, "I knew someone before they were born", refering to having the all encompassing knowledge which belongs to God our Creator, how would He say that?

I think I've already asked, if I remember correctly, about Scripture which tells us that we should not understand "foreknow" as "foreknow", rather, it should be understood as "foreordain", same as "foreordain". Did we cover that?

Much love!
 

marks

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His DETERMINATE COUNSEL was ordaining the Cross took place right on time;
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I'm missing something here. Can you show me how this changes the meaning of proginosko (pro - before or in advance; ginosko - I know)?

Much love!
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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marks,
[Hi Anthony,

One more question, please,

If God were to want to say, "I knew someone before they were born", refering to having the all encompassing knowledge which belongs to God our Creator, how would He say that?]

I believe psalm 139 is the exact answer from the perspective of the psalmist;
Psalm 139 King James Version (KJV)
139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.


4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.



[I think I've already asked, if I remember correctly, about Scripture which tells us that we should not understand "foreknow" as "foreknow", rather, it should be understood as "foreordain", same as "foreordain". Did we cover that?]


People are foreknown;
events are fore ordained
 

Nancy

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)
Oh yikes Helen, lol. Hmm - my take:
1. I suppose God could have chosen a different way to sacrifice His son, I would say His willingly going to His death is the only reason we are saved?

2. Would he have ever died if He was not killed. Hah! I'm going to say, yes. He could have been taking a bit of a risk by owning humanity (partially) and I'm pretty sure He was as fearful as many humans would be, just knowing He was going to suffer, bad.

3. Well...Satan started it all in the garden and he IS a killer so...hmm. Maybe a combo of satan and our sin...but, I think it was more so our sin that killed Him :oops:
xoxo
 

marks

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marks,
[Hi Anthony,

One more question, please,

If God were to want to say, "I knew someone before they were born", refering to having the all encompassing knowledge which belongs to God our Creator, how would He say that?]

I believe psalm 139 is the exact answer from the perspective of the psalmist;
Psalm 139 King James Version (KJV)
139 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.


4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.


17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.



[I think I've already asked, if I remember correctly, about Scripture which tells us that we should not understand "foreknow" as "foreknow", rather, it should be understood as "foreordain", same as "foreordain". Did we cover that?]


People are foreknown;
events are fore ordained

I'm sorry! I should have been more specific . . . since we're discussing the Koine Greek, what word or words would God use if He wanted to say He had advance knowledge of something?

Much love!
 

amadeus

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It appears that you do not believe in the reality of Satan, and that he is just a figment of the imagination. You should know from Scripture that that is total nonsense.
Are you are drawing your conclusion to be in agreement with the commonly accepted idea of who satan is? I am no Hebrew or Greek scholar so I must trust others when it comes to the translation we have of scripture, but very simply it appears that the word means adversary. Notice that the Strong's description gives more than a simple translation. It seems to render an opinion or to draw a conclusion on who this adversary is. I agree that there is an adversary but the extra conclusion would be better left out:

Satana'ß Satanas (sat-an-as');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 4567

  1. adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
    1. the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
      1. he incites apostasy from God and to sin
      2. circumventing men by his wiles
      3. the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
      4. by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
      5. by God's assistance he is overcome
      6. on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
    2. a Satan-like man
KJV Word Usage and Count
Satan 36

Satan is an evil fallen angel and the epitome of evil in Scripture.
He is also the king of all evil spirits, "the prince of the power of the air", with countless evil angels at his beck and call. And he can certainly take the form of a man if he so wishes. Or appear as an angel of light. It may very well be that he visited both Muhammad and Joseph Smith pretending to be the angel Gabriel (Jibril in Arabic). He can also take possession of men, as he did with Judas Iscariot, and as he well may do with the coming Antichrist.
You say that satan is a fallen angel but this brings us to another problem with men's previous conclusions:

a[ggeloß Aggelos (ang'-el-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 32

  1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
KJV Word Usage and Count
angel 179
messenger 7

Notice that the same Greek word translated as messenger referring to John the Baptist is translated as angel in other places:

"As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Mark 1:2

"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:" Matt 1:24

So a fallen angel could be any man sent by God who slipped from his prescribed as for example did the present day preacher, Jimmy Swaggert.


So how is it that with all your Bible knowledge, you are at sea about who Satan is? He was behind the scheme to have Christ put to death. At the same time it was God's perfect predetermined will that the Lamb of God would die on the cross and shed His blood for our redemption.

Someone decided long ago that this Satan was a specific entity of heavenly origin that fell from favor with God. But it could have just as easily been a human being called by God as His messenger who succumbed to the weaknesses of his own flesh. Consider who the devil is in the following verse. It is certainly not God, but why from scripture should we presume it not Adam or Cain?

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 18:44

Adam could be considered a murderer since by disobeying God he effectively murdered all of his offspring. Or Cain actually killed his brother and was also a murderer from the beginning.

diavboloß Diabolos (dee-ab'-ol-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Adjective, Strong #: 1228

  1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
    1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
  2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
KJV Word Usage and Count
devil 35
false accuser 2
slanderer 1

I do not insist that I am right but why other than because of tradition or because decisions rendered by others long before we were born should we presume that there is a separate devil entity other than the beastly old man of man himself?

I know there are other verses and other arguments but are any of them as absolute as you seem to believe?
 

Enoch111

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I do not insist that I am right but why other than because of tradition or because decisions rendered by others long before we were born should we presume that there is a separate devil entity other than the beastly old man of man himself?
It is very convenient to blame "tradition" when people do not wish to believe something. There is absolutely NO PRESUMPTION regarding the existence of an evil SPIRIT BEING called Satan. This is according to the Word of God.

REVELATION 12 (A VISION OF THE FUTURE)
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon [Satan], having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven [evil angels], and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born...
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


And using the meaning of angel as "messenger" to dismiss this truth has no relevance. All holy angels are both messengers and ministering spirits. But Satan and his evil angels chose to rebel against God and were cast out of God's Heaven. They now occupy the atmospheric heaven and work against humanity. They are NOT messengers but spirit beings dedicated to working against God and humanity. BELIEVE IT!
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I'm sorry! I should have been more specific . . . since we're discussing the Koine Greek, what word or words would God use if He wanted to say He had advance knowledge of something?

Much love!

from a BaptistCatechism with Commentary, by WR. Downing;

What of foreknowledge? Divine election based on foreseen faith would be election by mere foreknowledge [prescience]. The biblical usage must determine the exact significance of the term. What is the biblical teaching concerning the foreknowledge of God? Foreknowledge is not synonymous with omniscience.

It is concerned, not with contingency, but with certainty (Acts 2:23; 15:18; Rom. 8:29–30), and thus implies a knowledge of what has been rendered certain. Acts 2:23 would make foreknowledge dependent upon God’s “determinate counsel” by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with “foreknowledge” referring to and enforcing the previous term.

Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term “to know,” implying an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object (Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much more than mere prescience or omniscience—a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being foreknown is clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18).

Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible.

Were it based upon foreseen faith, mere prescience, or human ability, it would remain fallible and mutable. Because of its infallible and immutable character, Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is the source of the greatest comfort,

125
encouragement and perseverance to the believer. This is exactly the way in which and the reason why this truth is revealed in Scripture!
Note especially the great and glorious statement of the Apostle in Romans 8:28–39. Under inspiration,
he puts this truth in the context of the present promise (v. 28),
the eternal redemptive purpose (v. 29–34),
the very worst that believers can experience (v. 35–36),
the redemptive, covenant love of the Lord Jesus Christ (v. 37)
and the infallibility of the Covenant of Grace (v. 38–39).

God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means to bring the elect to faith in Christ in time and experience (Rom. 10:14–15, 17; 1 Thess. 1:4–10; 2:13). He has ordained the means as well as the end. To glory in the end without fulfilling the means would be inconsistent and sinful by disobedience. See Questions 139–140. Can you say that you are included in this number by Divine grace?
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Predetermined (3724)(horizo from horos = boundary, limit; English horizon) means strictly speaking to limit and then to mark out with a boundary and figuratively to determine. In other words, the events surrounding Jesus' crucifixion were based on a definite, prearranged plan and purpose of God.

The words the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God are a Greek construction governed by the Granville-Sharp rule. This grammatical rule simply states that when two nouns are joined by the word “and” (Greek kai) and the first noun has the definite article (article = "the") in front of it and the second does not, both nouns refer to the same thing. In Acts 2:23, this rule shows that the word foreknowledge refers to the same act as does the phrase predetermined plan and is an additional description. Predetermined is in the perfect tense (past completed act with ongoing effect) which refers to the past act of God "putting limits upon something" (so to speak) with the present result that that certain thing (in this case the crucifixion of His Son) has been appointed or decreed. God did not just foreknow, but He actually foreordained the crucifixion. The predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God describes this consultation as one that had as its purpose the fixing of limits upon, thus determining the destiny of God's Son. In other words, in eternity past (2Ti 1:9+; Re 13:8+), the Trinity, determined that the Lord Jesus Christ should be given over into the hands of godless men to be crucified. The word foreknowledge (see below) refers to the same act, and therefore includes in it the truth indicated by the predetermined plan. Foreknowledge, however, adds the idea of the foreordination or appointment in advance of the Person whose destiny was decided upon in the plan referred to. Stated succinctly the Granville Sharp rule in Acts 2:23 equates foreknowledge to a predetermined plan. According to Peter, God's foreknowledge is a deliberate choice. God foreknew not by prior observation, but by bringing into reality His predetermined plan.

Plan (purpose)(1012)(boule) refers to that which has been purposed and planned. It was God's definite plan, His designated will. The Crucifixion was no accident, but was God’s design and set purpose (boule). In other words the Cross was God’s determined will, not just His inclination.

God did not just "foreknow" that Jesus would be crucified (which of course He did know), but what Peter is saying is that God actually foreordained it to occur. To foreordain means to dispose or appoint in advance.

We see this same thought repeated later in Acts...

Acts 4:27-28 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose (boule) predestined (proorizo from = before + horizo) to occur.

Acts 13:27-29 “For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him. 28 “And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. 29 “When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, (a reference to OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus' Crucifixion) they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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As J I Packer put it God "knows and foreknows, all things, and His foreknowledge is foreordination; He, therefore, will have the last word, both in world history and in the destiny of every man."

Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary says "God’s foreknowledge is much more than foresight. God does not know future events and human actions because He foresees them; He knows them because He wills them to happen. Thus God’s foreknowledge is an act of His will." (Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary)

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Foreknowledge Based on Foreordination - God's foreknowledge, according to the Scripture teaching, is based upon His plan or eternal purpose, which embraces everything that comes to pass. God is never represented as a mere onlooker seeing the future course of events, but having no part in it. That God has such a plan is the teaching of the entire Scripture.

Foreknowledge (4268)(prognosis from verb proginosko from pro = before + ginosko = to know) literally means to know beforehand. God's foreknowledge means not only that He knew beforehand but that He also planned beforehand (cf. similar idea in Ex 33:17; Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:22; 7:23 [note]). As used of God, the word prognosis means foreknowledge with a purpose that can never be frustrated.

John MacArthur on prognosis - Significantly, the word appears here in the instrumental dative case. That shows that it was the means by which Christ's deliverance to His enemies took place. Yet, mere knowledge cannot perform such an act. Foreordination can act, however, and that is the New Testament meaning of prognōsis. (MacArthur NT Commentary - Acts)

The natural human tendency is to believe that God's foreknowledge simply refers to His foresight, the idea that He knew beforehand. In a discussion of God's foreknowledge regarding election, Dr MacArthur explains why men equate foreknowledge with foresight. Click here (select Chosen by God - Part 2 - Scroll down to heading entitled "Man's Decline").

John Phillips - The death of Christ was foreknown of God in a past eternity. When God acted in creation, He also acted in redemption. Jesus is described as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8). God knew that, given a free will, man would sin; that His holiness would demand full payment for that sin; that His love would provide a free pardon for that sin; that in the fullness of time the Father would send the Son and that the Spirit would prepare His body; that God would become incarnate in Christ; and that, in the end, man would murder Him. All that was foreknown and taken into account by God's determinate counsel. (Exploring Acts)

Steven Cole - Peter shows that Jesus was not killed because He was a victim of His enemies. He was killed because God predetermined before the world began that Jesus would die as the Savior of His people. Isaiah 53:10+ prophesied, “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief.” And so rather than invalidating Jesus as Lord and Messiah, His death actually validated Him, since it was a fulfillment of God’s eternal decree. (The Sermon that Launched the Church)

David G. Peterson remarks, “God’s foreknowledge (Gk. prognōsis) means more than his ability to anticipate the future. It is another way of talking about his determination of events in advance, according to his own plan.” (The Acts of the Apostles)

Now we see the mysterious juxtaposition of God's sovereignty (His predetermined plan and foreknowledge) and man's responsibility (culpability in this case). So while God set the plan of redemption in motion even "before time began" (2 Ti 1:9NET+), men are still held responsible for their volitional (willful) choices.

You nailed to a cross - First Peter incriminates the Jewish listeners! Talk about bold confrontation! Can you imagine the audience beginning to squirm? Now of course they did not physically, literally nail Jesus to the Cross, but they made it possible by crying out to Pilate, "Crucify, crucify Him!" (Lk 23:21+) even though Pilate thought Jesus was innocent and sought to try to release Him (Lk 23:22, 23, 24+).

By the hands of godless men - "By the hands of" is Hebraistic for "by means of." Next, Peter incriminates the godless Gentiles, aka, the pagan Romans, especially the Roman soldiers but also by implication Pontius Pilate (cf Acts 4:27).
from precept austin
 

Enoch111

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Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible.
Divine election is NOT "to eternal life". That would be a violation of the Gospel, since eternal life is offered to "whosoever" will take of the Water of Life freely.

Scripture defines election and predestination.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What does it mean "to be conformed to the image of His Son"? It means to be perfected into the exact likeness of Christ, which occurs at glorification.

So divine foreknowledge predestines those who will be justified (saved) by grace through faith in order to be perfected. And since all may be saved, all may be justified, and all may be perfected.
 
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marks

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It is concerned, not with contingency, but with certainty (Acts 2:23; 15:18; Rom. 8:29–30), and thus implies a knowledge of what has been rendered certain. Acts 2:23 would make foreknowledge dependent upon God’s “determinate counsel” by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with “foreknowledge” referring to and enforcing the previous term.

Hi Anthony,

You've seemed to put a lot of emphasis on this part, let's look at this.

Let's see, you're going to tax my Greek . . . OK, kai, and, either copulative use, or conjunctive use, the one adding one to another, "A bat and a ball", the other, describing one thing with another, "A toy, even a ball".

In the one case, the two are the same, in the other, they are not.

So it could be read as God's determinate counsel, which is His foreknowledge, or it can be read both God's determinate council, and also His foreknowledge.

I'm curious why the writers would show one use, but not the other use?

But this is why I prefer to discuss things with people, not with pastes.

In all honesty, I'm not seeing anything in this paste that does not simply restate the assertion in one manner or another.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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  1. No Satan did not kill Christ, He laid down His life:
John 10:18
"No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take itagain. This command I have received from My Father.”
Again, Jesus laid down His life as a ransom payment to redeem many, 1 Timothy 2:6. As such, He laid it down of His own accord; however it was in accordance with an agreement. The devil took Jesus' life in exchange for the lives of all those he held captivated by sin.
 

marks

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[
In Acts 2:23, this rule shows that the word foreknowledge refers to the same act as does the phrase predetermined plan and is an additional description. Predetermined is in the perfect tense (past completed act with ongoing effect) whi

Interestingly, the manuscript I have most readily at hand does not say "predetermined", instead it just uses horidzo, not prohoridzo.

Still reading . . .
 

justbyfaith

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I'm not going to go into it with any of these Calvinists (although if I did, I would very likely come out victorious theologically); lest I get blasted by one or all of them (again).

It is not worth the fight. They can have their area to preach in.

People are smart enough to know that when people bear bad fruit, it reflects their doctrine.
 
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