Please explain this.

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GodsGrace

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Living and saving faith alone...makes us right with God.

Such a faith will always produce obedience if given the opportunity.



Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,




Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit who would guide the disciples into all truth (John 14:26, John 16:13). This is what makes such epistles as 2 Peter authoritative.

It is 2 Peter 3:15-16 that makes Paul's writings authoritative.

And Paul's statement in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 makes everything else in scripture authoritative.
Is James authoritative?

Is what JESUS said authoritative?

Please show me somewhere in the N.T. where Jesus said to just believe in Him and we would be saved.

As far as working not...Romans 4:5
What kind of work do you think Paul was speaking of?
 
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GodsGrace

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Jesus, specifically sent Paul to the world with a gospel of grace. So why do you think I trust Paul more than Jesus. But I get that all the time.

Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles. He sent Paul to go to the Gentiles. If your faith is not in the writings of Paul then you are in the wrong gospel. The world will be judged by Paul's gospel of grace.

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
NKJV

2 Tim 2:8-9
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
NKJV
Hmmm.
No words from JESUS.
Interesting.

Did JESUS say we had to obey the commandments?
Did JESUS say the law was abolished?
Did JESUS say we need do nothing but just believe?
 
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GodsGrace

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Oh, but to many if you don't do works you are not saved. Where have you been? The most talked about subject is works.
The most talked about subject is works because there are a lot of lazy persons out there that think they just need to walk down an isle one time and they'll be saved forever more.

This is not true.
Jesus left us with many things to do.
At least we should be honest and admit we just don't want to do anything for Him.
And if we don't...what does that mean? Is that person still a member of the Kingdom of God here on earth even though they don't follow the rules of the Kingdom?

I've heard people say they can live how they want because anything is accepted
and they're still saved. Know why? Because of 1 Cor 10:23

Sometimes I wonder if we're all reading the same bible.

I think that if someone is not willing to do anything for the Kingdom...maybe they're not saved? I don't know... I just know that Jesus said to obey and do.
(of course this is not possible without faith).
 
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farouk

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The most talked about subject is works because there are a lot of lazy persons out there that think they just need to walk down an isle one time and they'll be saved forever more.

This is not true.
Jesus left us with many things to do.
At least we should be honest and admit we just don't want to do anything for Him.
And if we don't...what does that mean? Is that person still a member of the Kingdom of God here on earth even though they don't follow the rules of the Kingdom?

I've heard people say they can live how they want because anything is accepted
and they're still saved. Know why? Because of 1 Cor 10:23

Sometimes I wonder if we're all reading the same bible.

I think that if someone is not willing to do anything for the Kingdom...maybe they're not saved? I don't know... I just know that Jesus said to obey and do.
(of course this is not possible without faith).
We do indeed need to keep going back to the Word.
 
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farouk

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I agree.
The more we read the bible,
the more we'll understand it and the God it represents.
I don't read anywhere that faith alone saves forever.
Faith saves initially,,,then we're to keep ourselves saved
by obeying God.
I don't think this is the message of Ephesians 2.8-9:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Also, Romans 4.5 says:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Jude 24, 25:

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
 

justbyfaith

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Please show me somewhere in the N.T. where Jesus said to just believe in Him and we would be saved.

John 6:47.

As far as working not...Romans 4:5
What kind of work do you think Paul was speaking of?

Any and every type of work.

Did JESUS say we had to obey the commandments?

He said that if we love Him, we will. Not that we are obligated to do so. The subtle difference between these things will make a wonderful difference in your motivations toward obedience.

Did JESUS say the law was abolished?

He said, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he sent.

Did JESUS say we need do nothing but just believe?

Again, see John 6:47.

At least we should be honest and admit we just don't want to do anything for Him.

It is a matter of biblical doctrine, not my will. Of course, as one who is truly born again, I desire to serve Christ. But my understanding of doctrine in scripture tells me that this obedience ought not to stem from obligation but from thankfulness over what Christ has done for me on the Cross. As such, salvation has to be a free gift (see Romans 5:15-19). Otherwise, I am working for wages. And the problem with that is, that I am a sinner: all my righteousnesses are as filthy rags. So the only wages I can earn are based on that. It comes down to this: the wages of sin is death.
 

GodsGrace

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I don't think this is the message of Ephesians 2.8-9:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Also, Romans 4.5 says:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Jude 24, 25:

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Oh my. Here we go again...

Did I say we are NOT saved by faith?

What works do you think Romans 4:5 is talking about?

Also, why does Jude say verses 24-25 AFTER he just got through saying that the believers should BE CAREFUL that they THEMSELVES are not pulled along into the sins of the unbelievers.

Doesn't the very fact that Jude warns them mean it's possible for it to happen?

This is why we can't go by verses,,,,but by the complete idea in the N.T.
 

justbyfaith

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I agree.
The more we read the bible,
the more we'll understand it and the God it represents.
I don't read anywhere that faith alone saves forever.
Faith saves initially,,,then we're to keep ourselves saved
by obeying God.

This is false doctrine.

Our salvation (imputation of righteousness) begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

See Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, and Galatians 3:1-3.
 

farouk

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Oh my. Here we go again...

Did I say we are NOT saved by faith?

What works do you think Romans 4:5 is talking about?

Also, why does Jude say verses 24-25 AFTER he just got through saying that the believers should BE CAREFUL that they THEMSELVES are not pulled along into the sins of the unbelievers.

Doesn't the very fact that Jude warns them mean it's possible for it to happen?

This is why we can't go by verses,,,,but by the complete idea in the N.T.
Romans 8 and John's First Epistle are very clear about the believer's assurance. It's entirely the work of God by grace; the believer's redemption depends on Christ's sure faithfulness to the believer because of His finished work at the Cross, not on us supposedly trying to "keep it up".
 

farouk

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Of course.
We obey to the best of our ability.
We won't always obey,,,but this should not be an excuse to NOT TRY.

God has always demanded obedience.
Some did not enter into the promised land because of disobedience.
Ephesians 2.9 makes clear salvation is "not of works". It's trust in the Lord Jesus' "obedience unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians 2.8) that really counts, in faith.
 

justbyfaith

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Of course.
We obey to the best of our ability.
We won't always obey,,,but this should not be an excuse to NOT TRY.

God has always demanded obedience.
Some did not enter into the promised land because of disobedience.

my response:

It is a matter of biblical doctrine, not my will. Of course, as one who is truly born again, I desire to serve Christ. But my understanding of doctrine in scripture tells me that this obedience ought not to stem from obligation but from thankfulness over what Christ has done for me on the Cross. As such, salvation has to be a free gift (see Romans 5:15-19). Otherwise, I am working for wages. And the problem with that is, that I am a sinner: all my righteousnesses are as filthy rags. So the only wages I can earn are based on that. It comes down to this: the wages of sin is death.
 

GodsGrace

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This is false doctrine.

Our salvation (imputation of righteousness) begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through.

See Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, and Galatians 3:1-3.
I hate to have to post stuff that the bible is very clear about.

Here are verses on having to do good works/deeds:
I'm going to print many verses...there are even more:



vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


  1. Galatians 6:9-10
    Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


    Matthew 5:38-48

    "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.




    Luke 6:27-36

    "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.




    1 Peter 3:8-13

    To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.


    Psalm 34:12-16

    Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.



    Hebrews 13:16

    And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.




    1 Peter 2:20

    For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.



    1 Peter 3:17

    For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.



    John 5:28-29

    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



    Luke 6:35

    "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.




    Romans 2:5-11

    But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;




    1 Timothy 6:17-19

    Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.





    2 Timothy 2:20-21

    Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



    James 2:14-21

    What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?




    James 3:13

    Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.





    2 Corinthians 9:8

    And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;



    Acts 9:36

    Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.




    Philippians 2:12-13

    So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.





    Colossians 1:10-12

    so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.




    Ephesians 2:10

    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.




    2 Timothy 2:21

    Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



    2 Timothy 3:16-17

    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.




    1 Peter 2:13-15

    Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance
 
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GodsGrace

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Romans 8 and John's First Epistle are very clear about the believer's assurance. It's entirely the work of God by grace; the believer's redemption depends on Christ's sure faithfulness to the believer because of His finished work at the Cross, not on us supposedly trying to "keep it up".
What do you make of this:

Colossiand 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engagedin evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
 

farouk

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What do you make of this:

Colossiand 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engagedin evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
The parable of the sower shows that some ppl never truly had the root of the matter right.

Matthew 13.20-23:

"...he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
 

GodsGrace

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Ephesians 2.9 makes clear salvation is "not of works". It's trust in the Lord Jesus' "obedience unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians 2.8) that really counts, in faith.
I'm sorry F,,,I have to say this.
I'm afraid you don't understand what Paul is talking about when he mentions works.
I had asked you what he meant in another post but you didn't answer it.

The Jews, before Jesus, were trying to be saved bye THE LAW.
The Law is the 613 rules the Jews had to live by and are found in the O.T.
This would be the Mosaic Covenant that God made with the Israelites when they escaped from Egypt where they had been held as captive slaves for about 400 years.

When Paul speaks of works...he's saying that WORKS ALONE could not save us.
A person could do all the good they want to BUT if they don't believe in God and have faith in God, their good works amount to nothing as far as God is concerned...
although physically it's good to be the receiver of a good work.

Paul is saying that we are saved by FAITH.
Every writer of the N.T. believes this and so does every believer today.
NO ONE on any forum I've been on in 4 years EVER said that we are saved by our works. Those works of which Paul spoke. Works WITHOUT faith.

After we are saved,,,we're expected to do good works.
Every time you read a scripture on works,,,you should match it up to the above...you'll see that it reconciles every time.

This is an important concept in order to be able to understand the N.T.
(otherwise why would Ephesians 2:8-9 be followed by Ephesians 2:10?)
 
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WalterandDebbie

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I hate to have to post stuff that the bible is very clear about.

Here are verses on having to do good works/deeds:
I'm going to print many verses...there are even more:



vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


  1. Galatians 6:9-10
    Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


    Matthew 5:38-48

    "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.




    Luke 6:27-36

    "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.




    1 Peter 3:8-13

    To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.


    Psalm 34:12-16

    Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.



    Hebrews 13:16

    And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.




    1 Peter 2:20

    For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.



    1 Peter 3:17

    For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.



    John 5:28-29

    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



    Luke 6:35

    "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.




    Romans 2:5-11

    But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;




    1 Timothy 6:17-19

    Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.





    2 Timothy 2:20-21

    Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



    James 2:14-21

    What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?




    James 3:13

    Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.





    2 Corinthians 9:8

    And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;



    Acts 9:36

    Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.




    Philippians 2:12-13

    So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.





    Colossians 1:10-12

    so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.




    Ephesians 2:10

    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.




    2 Timothy 2:21

    Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



    2 Timothy 3:16-17

    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.




    1 Peter 2:13-15

    Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance
Amen
 
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