All the ELECT please stand up

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Kermos

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The Word of God, quoted in the following links, reveals that freewill is treacherously rebellious and a discipline of delusion.

These posts of this thread remain true, accurate, legitimate, legal, and Godly:

- "The Righteous Sovereignty Of God Post" (in this thread)

- "The Audience Of Lord Jesus For John 14:16 And John 15:16 Are All Dicsiples In All Time Post" (in this thread)

- "Matthias And Joseph In Exhibit 7 With The Lord Jesus And The Apostles 'All the Time' Post" (in this thread)

- "The Logic Statement (IF/THEN) Eliminating Any Question Of The Audience For The Supper Recorded In John Chapters 13-17 Being All Disciples In All Time Post" (in this thread)

- "(1) The Twelve mentioned in Matthew 26:20 et. al. does not indicate "only" the twelve, (2) Lord Jesus indicates that the content of John chapters 13-17 applies to all His disciples of all time according to His words recorded in John 17:20, and (3) the "you" in John 14:16 as well as the "you" in John 15:16 referring to all the disciples of Jesus in all time because of the about 120 recorded in Acts 1:15 and Acts 2:1-4 being indwelt by the Holy Spirit as well as the people at Cornelius' place recorded in Acts 10:44 being indwelt by the Holy Spirit"

- "The Repentance Is From God Not Conjured Up In Man By Man Post" (in this thread)

- "The Biblical Definition of Disciple Includes More People Than The 12 Apostles Post" (in this thread)

- "The Audience, Salvation, And 'I chose you' Words of Lord Jesus In John 15:16 and John 15:19 Post" (in this thread)

- "Lord Jesus Describes Part Of His Essence/Character - God Alone Chooses In Salvation Doctrine Post" (in this thread)

- "The Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17, and Joshua 24:15 Reveal The Sovereignty Of God In Man's Salvation Post" (in this thread)

- "The Addendum to Genesis 1:31, Genesis 2:16-17 Post Explaining Absence Of Choose Conjugate As Well As IF/THEN Application In Genesis 1-3 Post" (in this thread)

The Wonderful Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Jesus, Who is Lord, says "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever" (John 14:16), and Jesus, my Lord and my God, speaks these things to all His sheep of all time, and He has chosen we believers and He has given us believers the Holy Spirit!
 

Nomad

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The will of God is that none are lost. But does that mean...none will be lost? No.

That's exactly what it means.

Dan 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
It is the will of God that ALL men are to be saved but does that mean all men are saved? No

The extent and meaning of "all men" depends on context. It rarely, if ever, means "everyone living past, present and future." Let's look at your 1 Timothy text in context.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul defines "all men" for us in verse 2. He is speaking of "all kinds" of people, not everyone who ever lived. This certainly fits within the semantic range of "pas" (all).

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective

I've already proven above that God accomplishes all His will. So if "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 means everyone who ever lived, you are actually proving universalism. You have set up yet another Biblical contradiction. Thank God that paying careful attention to context solves the problem.

The context is about Antichrist which are people who don’t believe in Christ. All this passage says is that there were people like this among them who were not believers. As the church we cannot know whether some one is sincere about their conversion. There are still people that go through the motions but do not obey “from the heart” Rom 6:17. When times get tough they are out. This passage DOES NOT teach that a true believer can never fall away.

It teaches that those who walk away were never saved in the first place, hence the saying, "But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." That was the point.

Where does this prove that a believer in Christ cannot fall away? All it says is that there will be people in the end that think they are saved but will find out they aren’t.

Once again, this proves that there are "false brethren" who were never saved in the first place seeing that Christ "never knew" them. You can't lose what you never had.

Now, as for your handling of John 6:37-39, you completely missed the import of verse 37.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Notice the order of events. The Father gives... those who are given come... those who come Christ will never cast out. To contradict this, is to contradict the clear teaching of Jesus himself. Good luck with that.
 

Enoch111

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Paul defines "all men" for us in verse 2. He is speaking of "all kinds" of people, not everyone who ever lived. This certainly fits within the semantic range of "pas" (all).
This is what the Calvinists would have us believe, but there are many other Scriptures which REFUTE this false interpretation.

When the Holy Spirit said "all men" through Paul in 1 Timothy, He meant exactly what He said -- "all men". And again the Holy Spirit said exactly the same thing here (Acts 17:30): And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And the context makes it clear that this refers to all the inhabitants of the world:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands... And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Indeed, this sermon of Paul's on Mars Hill THOROUGHLY REFUTES UNCONDITONAL ELECTION AND LIMITED ATONEMENT. So we can see from just this one example, that Calvinists must twist the Scriptures in order to justify their false teachings. Very sad and very shameful.

 
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Kermos

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This is what the Calvinists would have us believe, but there are many other Scriptures which REFUTE this false interpretation.

When the Holy Spirit said "all men" through Paul in 1 Timothy, He meant exactly what He said -- "all men". And again the Holy Spirit said exactly the same thing here (Acts 17:30): And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And the context makes it clear that this refers to all the inhabitants of the world:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands... And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Indeed, this sermon of Paul's on Mars Hill THOROUGHLY REFUTES UNCONDITONAL ELECTION AND LIMITED ATONEMENT. So we can see from just this one example, that Calvinists must twist the Scriptures in order to justify their false teachings. Very sad and very shameful.
ACTS 17:30 EXPOSITED:

In Acts 17:30 the phrase "commands all men" is found, and in the Book of Romans it is written "Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law" (Romans 9:31, see also Isaiah 28:13, Hebrews 12:20, Hebrews 12:25); therefore, it is evident that Israel was unable to keep the commandments/law.

A command does not convey ability to follow the command. The Armenian interpretation of the Mars Hill episode disintegrates under these circumstances.

Staying in context for Acts 17:30, behold, the Apostle Paul wrote "What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened" (Romans 11:7).

1 TIMOTHY 2:4 EXPOSITED:

1 Timothy 2:4 does:
- not state "who desires all men choose to be saved"
- not state "who desires all men willpower to be saved"
but the passage:
- states "who desires all men to be saved"
therefore, 1 Timothy 2:4 conveys NOT OF MAN rather OF GOD (John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16)!

Based on the above explanation of Truth about 1 Timothy 2:4 it is deceptive for Armenians to use the passage as a free will proof text.

This is Christian doctrine for the Apostle John and the Apostle Paul expressed accord with that which the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)!
 

Nomad

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This is what the Calvinists would have us believe, but there are many other Scriptures which REFUTE this false interpretation.

When the Holy Spirit said "all men" through Paul in 1 Timothy, He meant exactly what He said -- "all men".

Yes, Paul did mean exactly what he said in verse one. The question becomes, what did he mean? Paul clearly defines what he means by defining his usage of "pas" in verse two, which lines up nicely with its semantic range. I demonstrated this very clearly in my previous post. I'll simply refer you back to that post. Your interpretation, on the other hand, forces "pas" through a particular theological lens while ignoring its lexical meaning, New Testament usage, and Paul's glaring contextual clue in verse two. So you have refuted nothing and the false interpretation is all yours. Yes, very sad and very shameful indeed.

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
 

Enoch111

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So you have refuted nothing and the false interpretation is all yours.
Why would God be concerned with "ALL TYPES" when Christ died for the sins of the whole world? Do you see how Calvinists play games with words?

The Bible says "ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. Not "All types have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
 
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Nomad

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Why would God be concerned with "ALL TYPES" when Christ died for the sins of the whole world?

"All types" as in not just Jews, but people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. This is the "world."

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation...

The word "world" has a wide variety of meanings. It never means "everyone who ever lived." When Scripture speaks of Christ dying for the sins of the "world" it speaks of a "general collection" from all nations and peoples as opposed to just Jews. See the entry in bold below. If you want to insist that "world" means everyone who ever lived, you do so without lexical support as seen below.

kosmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, ‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe_3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom_11:12 etc)

8b) of believers only, Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_6:33; Joh_12:47 1Co_4:9; 2Co_5:19
Part of Speech: noun masculine
 

Kermos

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Why would God be concerned with "ALL TYPES" when Christ died for the sins of the whole world? Do you see how Calvinists play games with words?

The Bible says "ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. Not "All types have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

The Apostle John also wrote "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in [the power of] the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Both of these quotations which include "whole world" are from the SAME book, the first epistle of John the Apostle.

Behold, Christ died for the sins of the whole world AND the whole world lies in the power of the evil one; therefore, the evidence is clear that "whole world" does NOT include ALL PEOPLE because believers are NOT in the power of the evil one! Thus "whole world" in 1 John 5:19 is NOT inclusive of ALL PEOPLE! The first "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is NOT inclusive of ALL PEOPLE as "whole world" here refers to believers before the believers believe; in other words, Christ died for the sins of the elect/chosen. Thus these passages form First John are in agreement with Lord Jesus' words recorded in John 3:16 and John 8:44.

This is Christian doctrine for Christ taught this Truth!

See how Armenians try to deceive by changing the meaning of scripture and words in scripture such as the quoted post!
 

Enoch111

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Behold, Christ died for the sins of the whole world AND the whole world lies in the power of the evil one; therefore, the evidence is clear that "whole world" does NOT include ALL PEOPLE because believers are NOT in the power of the evil one!
Actually that is proof that Christ died for the sins of the whole world!

1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

2. The whole world lieth in wickedness

3. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son

4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world

5. God now commands all men everywhere to repent.

6. Not a hint about merely "the elect" in any of the above.

NO ONE IS ELECTED FOR SALVATION OR DAMNATION
 
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Enoch111

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"All types" as in not just Jews, but people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. This is the "world."
How about K.I.S.S.? The whole world means the whole world of humanity. Naturally, that means all types, but it primarily means each and every inhabitant of the earth. "Whosoever" covers that.

Please take note: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus made sure that Calvinists would not mess with His Gospel. He mentioned "the world" FOUR TIMES in two verses. But that does not stop them from messing with it. The doctrines of men supersede the actual words of Christ!
 
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Kermos

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Actually that is proof that Christ died for the sins of the whole world!

1. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

2. The whole world lieth in wickedness

3. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son

4. Christ died for the sins of the whole world

5. God now commands all men everywhere to repent.

6. Not a hint about merely "the elect" in any of the above.

NO ONE IS ELECTED FOR SALVATION OR DAMNATION
Behold, Lord Jesus reveals His glorious Way of salvation for men:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
(John 6:29)

you did not choose Me, but I chose you
(John 15:16)

In John 3:16, we find that "the world" refers to believers before the believers believe; therefore, this is refering to the elect/chosen of God as revealed in John 15:16.

In John 3:16, we find that God expounds about salvation for He said "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" in the portion of the statment, but then God narrows the focus to whom "the world" refers by stating "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". The Greek is "who ever" as opposed to a promiscuos "whosoever". Jesus Christ explains God's plan of redemption for His chosen/elect - these individuals are the "who" in John 3:16 - individuals who God recorded from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain!

John 3:16 includes "believe" (notice the absence of "choose to" or "willpower to" in front of the word "believe"). The source for this "believe" mentioned in John 3:16 is very evident by Lord Jesus unequivocally stating that this "believe" is the work of God as recorded in John 6:29. A individual believes because God works belief/faith in the individual, and the proof is that Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), said that belief in Jesus whom the Father has send is the work of God - the individuals chosen by God (John 15:16)!

As in the above quoted post, Armenians use scripture out of context, and Armenians apply misinterpretation to scripture.

Anyone who states that God does not elect/choose His people is calling Lord Jesus a liar!

Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:16)!
 

Phoneman777

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You would. :rolleyes: o_O :rolleyes:

Unless God satisfies your self-righteous demands, He is not worthy of your praise and worship.

Oh, all the elect stand up?

How's this?

giphy.gif
I was hoping for something in response that was a little more substantial. Even Mormons have their "burning in the bosom" idea. Just how does one know they are among the "elect"? Not trolling, seeking an honest answer. :)
 

Kermos

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Anyone who states that God elects for salvation or damnation is a liar. God elects and predestines believers for perfection in Christ.
You are demonstrating your failure to undertand scripture again, Enoch111!

Lord Jesus said

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you"
(John 15:16)

AND, Lord Jesus said:

"I chose you out of the world"
(John 15:19)

THEREFORE, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), all in the same discourse to all disciples in all time decisively made it clear that God elects/chooses unto salvation.

ADDITIONALLY, it is a true saying that anyone who states that God does not elect/choose His people is calling Lord Jesus a liar!
 

John Caldwell

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We all hold to the doctrine of grace. I have never seen anyone on a Christian forum, anywhere, teach that we are saved by anything other than grace... Except for the odd dispensationalist who believes the OT Israelites were saved by their obedience/law.
While it is true all Christians believe they are saved by God and by God's grace, the Doctrines of Grace refer to the five points of Calvinism.

Many non-Calvinists/ non-Reformed affirm the five points but only the Reformed Calvinists affirm them as expressed fully at the Synod of Dort. Basically, it is reformed 16th century Roman Catholic doctrine after a few generations to develop Presbyterian soteriology).
 

Grailhunter

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How about this....In 1610, just one year after the death of James Arminius (a Dutch seminary professor) five articles of faith based on his teachings were drawn up by his followers. The Armenians, as his followers came to be called, presented these five doctrines to the State of Holland in the form of a "Remonstrance". The Armenian party insisted that the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism (The Heidelberg Catechism, written in 1563, originated in one of the few pockets of Calvinistic faith in the Lutheran territories of Germany.) be changed to conform to the doctrinal views contained in the Remonstrance. The Armenians objected to those doctrines upheld in both the Catechism and the Confession relating to divine sovereignty, human inability, unconditional election or predestination, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints. It was in connection with these matters that they wanted the official standards of the Church of Holland revised. Now non of this was adopted by the Catholics because their doctrines of such things had been set more than a millennium before. Let me know if I missed anything. o_O I have been told I need to add emo's because I come a crossed a little dry.
 
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John Caldwell

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You covered it.

It is interesting to me that Arminius died a Calvinist (his view had been determined to be orthodox but was challenged again....but he died before the articles). Arminianism is of Calvinistic trajectory.

Oh....o_O....keeping it :cool::D
 

Grailhunter

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Yes. At least three (if not four) of the points of the Remonstrants are practically Calvinistic.

So you guys are talking about Calvinist Grace. You had me going there for a minute. Grace is a significant belief in all denominations and in each are defined a little differently.
 
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