Please explain this.

Enoch111 said:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

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I’m on my iPad in bed , so I can’t respond well here.

But, your post just sends us back round in a circle.
Did you really read what I posted?

It doesn’t seem so. Unless you just read it with your filtered glasses on.

Obviously “to you” doers of the word must mean “going here, going there, busy doing good things”

To me the verse means DOING WHAT HE TOLD US TO DO....= Follow , and DO the two COMMANDS that He left is.

Then LOVE DIRECTS OUR DOING.


(I’m obviously not “SHOUTING” ....I can’t use the Bold or underline on my iPad , sorry )

Enoch111 said:

It would seem that you have gone overboard here. There are numerous Scriptures which plainly tell us what we ought to do. As Christians need need to keep a proper balance and follow what the Word says (as below):

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But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

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What kind of born-again Christian would "shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him" if "dwelleth the love of God in him"?? If you love God, you will have love and compassion for the people around you--especially those in the community of faith. But if works are required--how can you be sure that you have ENOUGH good deeds to please Him?

I agree with HR that Abraham was accounted righteous without works... As we all are. It is our faith in God promises... Our trust in His word... Our belief that what God says God means... That is faith.
But I disagree with HR that James contradicts Genesis and denies the gospel. The faith that James speaks of is a complete faith. A faith that is affirmed by the fruits of righteousness that grow from it. God doesn't judge us by our confessions of faith. Confessions of professions are meaningless on their own... Which is what James said. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is that of demons. They believe, but are lost.
The other side of the coin reveals those whose works are carnal and not of faith. Self effort and fleshly strivings are as dead as dead faith. Everything must be of God, or else it is vain.

ScottA said:

That is not biblical.

If one is [actually] saved "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." Not even that person themselves. "No one."

...Thus, if you will go back and view all things according to this truth...it will set you free. This too is what is written.

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Dear Scott.
I AM FREE.
Do you realize that by your above reply to me what you're saying is that it is not necessary to obey God?

You said obeying God IS NOT BIBLICAL. !!

I said this:
But, you know, I'd like to REMAIN saved all my life...
and that requires obedience to God...so the answer then would be
YES

YOUR reply is that I said something that IS NOT BIBLICAL.

Please post some scripture to back up your belief that it is not necessary to obey God.

I suppose all we silly Christians that are obeying God are not being biblical...I'd like you to please show us where it's stated that God does NOT require obedience.

Thanks.

Grailhunter said:

GodsGrace is exactly right.

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I guess @ScottA believes that the only way to be free is to not obey God.

I wonder if that's what Jesus meant when He said He would set us free?
I thought He meant from satan and his effects.
Silly me.

brakelite said:

I agree with HR that Abraham was accounted righteous without works... As we all are. It is our faith in God promises... Our trust in His word... Our belief that what God says God means... That is faith.
But I disagree with HR that James contradicts Genesis and denies the gospel. The faith that James speaks of is a complete faith. A faith that is affirmed by the fruits of righteousness that grow from it. God doesn't judge us by our confessions of faith. Confessions of professions are meaningless on their own... Which is what James said. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is that of demons. They believe, but are lost.
The other side of the coin reveals those whose works are carnal and not of faith. Self effort and fleshly strivings are as dead as dead faith. Everything must be of God, or else it is vain.

Click to expand...

Could you PLEASE show me where in Genesis Abraham was righteous with God WITHOUT works?

Thanks.

ScottA said:

That is not biblical.

If one is [actually] saved "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." Not even that person themselves. "No one."

...Thus, if you will go back and view all things according to this truth...it will set you free. This too is what is written.

Click to expand...

This is an error to think like that.

It's the "lover's" mistake of putting intimacy above purity. Putting shalem above tamim.

God will not go easier on someone if they have an intimate relationship with Him. That's a wrong view. God is righteous...and we reap as we have sown.

So then WE ourselves do leave His hand...as sheep that go astray. We can easily misuse our freedom at any point along the way.
Scott....you have an intimate knowledge of God...but that makes your position assailable by the enemy. We must be careful to not leave an opening for him to attack.

Isaiah 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

When we start thinking we are special or ..."that would never happen to me" that's precisely the thing the enemy is waiting for to cause us to fall.

The fear of the Lord continues to be the foundation of wisdom..and when we let that go, foolishness then raises itself up.

We are not to test the Lord.

justbyfaith said:

ddd

Good works are the result of being sanctified...they are not required as the means for being made holy. If I give $5, or even $5,000,000 to the poor, that doesn't sanctify me in the slightest. I might do such a thing because of God' sanctifying work within my heart. But the outward action doesn't change my inside. The only thing that changes me on the inside is my faith in Jesus Christ.

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If you give money to the poor it DOES sanctify you.
Sanctify just means being set aside to do God's work.
If you help the poor you are doing God's work...which is cooperating with Him and His plan for us.

Your faith changes you on the inside.
Your sanctification also changes you on the inside.
The more you do for God,,,the more He sets you aside for works.

Philippians 2:13 TLB
For God is at work within you, helping you want to obey Him,
and then helping you do what He wants.

See Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19.

The law no longer condemns us from the outside (as written on tablets made of stone); but it governs us on the inside (as written on fleshy tables of human hearts).

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Romans 6:14 WORKS OF THE LAW is being spoken of here.
Did you not like
Romans 6:13 ?
Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God.

Romans 7:4 SPEAKING ABOUT THE LAW of MOSES
Romans 7:6 Yes, we are to serve God with our hearts. But we DO have to serve.
Galatians 2:19 SPEAKING ABOUT THE LAW OF MOSES
Ephesians 2:15 SPEAKING ABOUT HOW JESUS JOINED JEWS AND CHRISTIANS
Colossians 2:14 JESUS TAKES AWAY OUR SINS AT THE CROSS. CORRECT.
Hebrews 7:18-19 CORRECT. THE NEW COVENANT IS BETTER THAN THE OLD.


You REALLY need to learn the difference between the Works of the Law and the Works of Obedience of Faith.

We are not required to obey the Lord as Christians. We were required to obey Him before we became Christians, when we were under the law; and couldn't. Now we are not required to obey; but we do obey because His Spirit has come to live on the inside of us; shedding abroad His love in our heart (see Galatians 3:24-25).

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You just said:
WE ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY THE LORD AS CHRISTIANS.
Amazing.

(AND: we were required to obey Him BEFORE we became Christians).

I think you have it backwards.
When we were NOT Christians we were NOT required to obey God.
Can't get any more lost than lost.

We still are required to obey the Moral Law.
Beore it was on stone.
Now it's in our heart.
But we still have to obey it.
Jeremiah 31:33
Ezekiel 36:26
NOW that we ARE Christian we ARE required to obey God.

We receive the Spirit by faith; and the love of the Lord through the Spirit. This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). It is also the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

The moral law no longer condemns us from the outside when we fail to be obedient; and we also fail less and less because it governs us from the inside through the love that has been shed abroad in our hearts.

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Agreed.
But you ARE confused....

In that scripture it teaches that those who have done evil will be raised to the resurrection of damnation. All of us have done evil (1 John 1:10, Romans 3:23). So then, are all raised to the resurrection of damnation?

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You're making up your own gospel JBF.
See John 5:28-29 and listen to what Jesus says and stop trying to tip toe around it.

Continued salvation is based on faith, not obedience/works. The righteousness of the Lord begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through...Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3.

Do you wear tziztit, tallit, and tefilin? If you don't, then you are a transgressor of the law.

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WHICH law would that be?
You need to learn the difference.
Mathew 7:24-29

He did indeed do all of this for me. Because as I do those things, His Spirit is dwelling on the inside of me, energizing me and doing those things through me. Jesus said, Apart from me you can do nothing.

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Agreed.
But you ARE confused.

John 8:31, 51
Therefor JESUS was saying to those Jews that had believed Him:
IF you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine.

Truly, truly, I say to you, If anyone keeps My word, he shall
never see death.

GodsGrace said:

Please post some scripture to back up your belief that it is not necessary to obey God.

Click to expand...

Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:18, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18 all show that we are no longer subject to the law as a requirement.

However, because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6); not because we are looking to a requirement, but because we have received the righteousness which is by faith.

GodsGrace said:

Could you PLEASE show me where in Genesis Abraham was righteous with God WITHOUT works?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Very simply, Genesis 15:6.

GodsGrace said:

If you give money to the poor it DOES sanctify you.

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Whoah! This is where your theology is way off. Giving money to the poor is the result of having been sanctified by the Spirit (see 2 Thessalonians 2:13); we do not sanctify ourselves by what we do. God sanctifies us; and what we do shows forth the sanctification that has been wrought in us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

GodsGrace said:

Romans 6:14 WORKS OF THE LAW is being spoken of here.
Did you not like
Romans 6:13 ?
Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God.

Click to expand...

You are deflecting the issue. Don't worry; it is a common thing for people, when they do not like what a scripture says, to think that something in the context will nullify what the verse is saying to them. Often they can find verses in the context that seem to do so. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, context never nullifies the meaning of any singular scripture. The scripture that they are trying to get away from remains; and the Holy Spirit will deal with them concerning it in His time; otherwise they may very well perish.

GodsGrace said:

You just said:
WE ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY THE LORD AS CHRISTIANS.
Amazing.

(AND: we were required to obey Him BEFORE we became Christians).

I think you have it backwards.
When we were NOT Christians we were NOT required to obey God.
Can't get any more lost than lost.

Click to expand...

Fact is, before we were Christians, we were under the law; which was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. So, you need to think about what this means.

GodsGrace said:

We still are required to obey the Moral Law.
Beore it was on stone.
Now it's in our heart.
But we still have to obey it.
Jeremiah 31:33
Ezekiel 36:26
NOW that we ARE Christian we ARE required to obey God.

Click to expand...

Now that we are born again, we love Jesus; and will obey the Lord because of that love. But not because we are required to do so. We are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14). This means that the law can no longer condemn us from the outside; it only governs us from the inside. In other words, it is not a requirement any longer; now it is a privilege. God says, "I desire that you obey me in this..." and we do so because we love Him. If this is not our relationship with Him, then we should question whether or not we are still under the law (the schoolmaster) and therefore not yet recipients of the faith that God speaks of in Galatians 3:24-25.

GodsGrace said:

You're making up your own gospel JBF.
See John 5:28-29 and listen to what Jesus says and stop trying to tip toe around it.

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You didn't answer the question. And I wouldn't call the natural conclusion to the question, "good news".

The following post may help: Commentary on Romans.

GodsGrace said:

But you ARE confused.

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See Matthew 7:3-4.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Yes--that is why the Rich Man (in Luke 16) is condemned and in the place of torment. Abraham comments that the Rich Man and his brothers have the Law of Moses and the prophets to have informed them. James addresses his book to Messianic Jews.

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WHO were Messianic Jews at the time of Jesus?
You mean Jewish Christians?
Please provide scripture for Lazarus and the rich man.
Do you mean Luke 16:28-31?
How does that make your point?

Luke 16:18-31
28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

All it's saying is that the rich man asks that Lazarus be sent to warn his brothers....and Abraham replied that his brothers had THE SCRIPTURES to warn them.

And also, if the brothes did not even listen to MOSES and the prophets they won't even listen to someone who rises from the dead.

JESUS rose from the dead. And some today don't even listen to HIM.

And I do believe you've misunderstood Luke 16:18-31
They SHOULD have listened to Moses and the prophets.

Who does the work? Do we do the work on ourselves or does the Spirit of Christ do it from within us?

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You tell me.
YOU do the work,,,with the help of God.

Just like Jesus did:

Acts 10:37-38
you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.


We will reap what we sow:

Romans 2:5-11
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Again--The Book of Hebrews is written to Jews who were beginning to fall away from Christ because they were being persecuted--like the "second soil" in Jesus' parable of the "four soils".

You are making law where there is no law. "It was for freedom that Christ has set us free." (Galatians 5:1)

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Yes,,, I know it is possible to fall away from our faith as in Luke 8:13.
But I don't know why you're posting this.
I don't make the laws...
GOD DOES.

Maybe a Christian is not, but a LOT of church-goers are. It is a problem which has plagued Christianity from the very beginning. (Think Ananias and Sapphira--we don't know that they were not real Christians.)

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How am I to know of what you're speaking?
Please us syntax.

He was speaking to Jews (He was "sent to the lost sheep of Israel"). He was showing them how they fell far short of actual obedience. When He told His disciples that it was difficult for rich men to make it into the Kingdom of God, they were startled and then asked who could possibly make it. They were used to the idea and had been taught that those who were wealthy were wealthy because of their righteousness. But, don't ignore Jesus' response that, with man, it is impossible, but that with God, all things are possible.

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Yes, Jesus was teaching the Jews how they fell short of obedience.
This is because Jesus required that we obey Him if we are to be His disciples.
John 8:31

Go back and read the context of that passage. Then go and do a study of the Five Crowns (not diadems but stephanos --a victor's wreath given out in a sporting competition) and see for what deeds they will be awarded.

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Again,,,no syntax.
I'm concerned with man's SALVATION,,just as Jesus was.
Jesus died on that cross to be our redeemer to get us into heaven and keep us out of hell.

I don't believe He died on the cross so we could get some type of award.
YOU study the five crowns...
I'LL study salvation.

Also, I find that people who want to hold on to a works righteousness more often than not make the mistake of thinking that there is a separation between works and the works of the law. The fact of the matter is, these are basically one and the same.

I suggest taking the time to meditate on Romans 9:30-33, Romans 10:1-4; really think about what these verses mean for a righteousness that is by works.

@H. Richard,

I agree with much of what you say, my brother.

I just don't think that you have to toss out the entire book of James in order to be able to say it.

justbyfaith said:

Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:18, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18 all show that we are no longer subject to the law as a requirement.

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My dear man,
I asked you for scriptural support for your statement that
IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD.

What you're posting above are verses about THE LAW.
I've been thru these verses with you several times and will make no further comment on them except to say that you have NO UNDERSTANDING
between THE LAW of Moses
AND THE LAW OF JESUS
AND OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.
I'm not posting any verses.
I do believe you should start from the beginnin with Mathew and quietly read the N.T. on your own and then come back to report.

However, because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Romans 8:4,1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6); not because we are looking to a requirement, but because we have received the righteousness which is by faith.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter WHY you obey God...
what matters is that you OBEY HIM.

Do you think you're doing any new Christians reading along a favor by teaching that it is NOT NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD?
James 3:1
You have much responsibility in your hands.
Your words are important to the Kingdom of God.
You should be teaching what God wants you to teach...
Not what you THINK you know or what you THINK God wants.

From the time God placed Adam in the garden,He's wanted obedience.
WHEN did He stop wanting this?
Could you post that scripture too please?
And could you not post the same ole' verses about WORKS.

Very simply, Genesis 15:6.

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Genesis 15:6 WHAT???
How about using some syntax?
Are you speaking about Abraham?
You said he didn't have to do works to be righteous.
Please explain
Genesis 12:1 which came WAY BEFORE Genesis 15:6

Whoah! This is where your theology is way off. Giving money to the poor is the result of having been sanctified by the Spirit (see 2 Thessalonians 2:13); we do not sanctify ourselves by what we do. God sanctifies us; and what we do shows forth the sanctification that has been wrought in us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Click to expand...

Again, I don't make theology. Theologians make theology.
I just learn and read and UNDERSTAND the N.T. and what GOD REQUIRES FROM US.

Apparently you have some difficulty with God.
You think He's your buddy down the Street and not God Almighty.

You are deflecting the issue. Don't worry; it is a common thing for people, when they do not like what a scripture says, to think that something in the context will nullify what the verse is saying to them. Often they can find verses in the context that seem to do so. But when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, context never nullifies the meaning of any singular scripture. The scripture that they are trying to get away from remains; and the Holy Spirit will deal with them concerning it in His time; otherwise they may very well perish.


Fact is, before we were Christians, we were under the law; which was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Now that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. So, you need to think about what this means.

Click to expand...

I don't DEFLECT.
I exegete every verse that's given to me.

Did you just say above that when we were not Christians, we were under the Law?
That's interesting. So you DO believe good works save us?

And NOW that we are Christian the law is no longer for us.
Well, if that's not the most backwards thing I've heard so far today.
YOU are the one that needs to reflect on what you write.

Now that we are born again, we love Jesus; and will obey the Lord because of that love. But not because we are required to do so. We are no longer under the law (Romans 6:14). This means that the law can no longer condemn us from the outside; it only governs us from the inside. In other words, it is not a requirement any longer; now it is a privilege. God says, "I desire that you obey me in this..." and we do so because we love Him. If this is not our relationship with Him, then we should question whether or not we are still under the law (the schoolmaster) and therefore not yet recipients of the faith that God speaks of in Galatians 3:24-25.

You didn't answer the question. And I wouldn't call the natural conclusion to the question, "good news".

The following post may help: Commentary on Romans.

You have three fingers pointing back at you, Matthew 7:1-6.

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I don't know what you're talking about.
Again I refer you to James 3:1

Stop reading COMMENTARIES and START READING THE BIBLE.
I don't read commentaries, thanks for the suggestion.

I like to read what Paul wrote...not what some commentator thinks about it.

brakelite said:

I agree with HR that Abraham was accounted righteous without works... As we all are. It is our faith in God promises... Our trust in His word... Our belief that what God says God means... That is faith.
But I disagree with HR that James contradicts Genesis and denies the gospel. The faith that James speaks of is a complete faith. A faith that is affirmed by the fruits of righteousness that grow from it. God doesn't judge us by our confessions of faith. Confessions of professions are meaningless on their own... Which is what James said. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is that of demons. They believe, but are lost.
The other side of the coin reveals those whose works are carnal and not of faith. Self effort and fleshly strivings are as dead as dead faith. Everything must be of God, or else it is vain.

Click to expand...

Exactly so.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Exactly so.

Click to expand...

Exactly so.....what?

Did Abraham LEAVE HIS HOME when God told him to?

DID HE OBEY GOD?
IS THAT A WORK?

Genesis 12:1

brakelite said:

I agree with HR that Abraham was accounted righteous without works... As we all are. It is our faith in God promises... Our trust in His word... Our belief that what God says God means... That is faith.
But I disagree with HR that James contradicts Genesis and denies the gospel. The faith that James speaks of is a complete faith. A faith that is affirmed by the fruits of righteousness that grow from it. God doesn't judge us by our confessions of faith. Confessions of professions are meaningless on their own... Which is what James said. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is that of demons. They believe, but are lost.
The other side of the coin reveals those whose works are carnal and not of faith. Self effort and fleshly strivings are as dead as dead faith. Everything must be of God, or else it is vain.

Click to expand...

Any work you do after salvation is a work for God.
Colossians....look for it.

GodsGrace said:

Any work you do after salvation is a work for God.
Colossians....look for it.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "Now if any man build upon this foundation [the foundation of Jesus Christ because of God's grace to him--see verse 10] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

GodsGrace said:

Exactly so.....what?

Click to expand...

I was indicating that I agreed with everything Brakelite said in that post.

Did Abraham LEAVE HIS HOME when God told him to?

DID HE OBEY GOD?
IS THAT A WORK
Genesis 12:1

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That was God's call to Abraham and it was followed by God's promise to him. But the Covenant which God made with Abraham was not the New Covenant which we have in Christ.

GodsGrace said:

between THE LAW of Moses
AND THE LAW OF JESUS
AND OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.

Click to expand...

Very simply, the law of Jesus includes the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-20); and obedience of faith means being obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, even walking according to the love of the Lord shed abroad in your heart (?).

GodsGrace said:

It doesn't matter WHY you obey God...
what matters is that you OBEY HIM.

Click to expand...

Your motivation concerning obedience can mean the difference between salvation and condemnation. If you are trying to earn acceptance before God, then you are expecting the Lord to owe you salvation: and the Lord will not owe you anything...see Romans 4:4.

GodsGrace said:

Do you think you're doing any new Christians reading along a favor by teaching that it is NOT NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD?

Click to expand...

That is not exactly what I am teaching. You are taking my literal words (out of the context of the rest) and running with them.

I am saying that if you are truly born again of the Holy Spirit, you will obey the Lord. But not because of an imputation of an outward requirement on you. Rather, because you love Jesus (Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, Luke 7:36-50) for that He has saved you and given you a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27).

For those who have not entered into a relationship with Jesus, they are indeed required to obey the Lord (i.e. IT IS NECESSARY FOR THEM TO OBEY GOD); and will also find themselves unable to do so, because they do not have the inward working and power of the Holy Ghost within them.

For those who have a relationship with Jesus, the requirement is lifted, because we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin(s). Nothing can separate us from the love of God, not things present, nor things to come (and this includes present and future sin(s)). And there is a remission of sins that are past. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord will not impute sin, Romans 4:8. Hebrews 9:12 also speaks of this principle. He has obtained eternal redemption for us.

GodsGrace said:

From the time God placed Adam in the garden,He's wanted obedience.
WHEN did He stop wanting this?

Click to expand...

He never stopped wanting obedience. He stopped requiring it when He forgave us of past, present, and future sin(s).

GodsGrace said:

Please explain
Genesis 12:1 which came WAY BEFORE Genesis 15:6

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The moment Abraham was justified was in the moment of Genesis 15:6. He had faith before that, but was not given a promise to hold on to. His leaving Ur of Chaldees was an outward working of his inward faith. But his invisible faith of believing the LORD's promise, that his seed would be as the stars in heaven, justified him in the LORD's sight. He was not justified before this. I do not know why; because it looks like he had faith before this. Maybe because in Genesis 15:6, his faith became tangible to God.

GodsGrace said:

Did you just say above that when we were not Christians, we were under the Law?
That's interesting. So you DO believe good works save us?

Click to expand...

See Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48.

We cannot possibly be saved by our good works. Anyone seeking to be justified by works is required to obey the whole law from conception into eternity; you would have to be born wearing tzitzit and tallit and tefilin.

GodsGrace said:

And NOW that we are Christian the law is no longer for us.
Well, if that's not the most backwards thing I've heard so far today.
YOU are the one that needs to reflect on what you write.

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The good news of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing; but it is the power of God for salvation to us who believe.

I have said that the law governs us from the inside as Christians; but it no longer condemns us from the outside.

GodsGrace said:

Stop reading COMMENTARIES and START READING THE BIBLE.
I don't read commentaries, thanks for the suggestion.

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I spend most of my time reading the Bible only. The commentary I referred you to is written by me. So don't think of it as a commentary. Think of it as what I would say to you concerning the doctrinal issue at hand.

btw, commentaries can be useful.

Because while we do not need anyone to teach us (1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27); certain people in the body of Christ have been given insight, understanding, wisdom, revelation, and knowledge that can help us in our walk. According to Ephesians 4:11-12, teachers are given to the body of Christ for the perfecting of the saints and for the edifying of the body of Christ.