Please explain this.

I think that my position is not clear to some, so I will attempt to reiterate it here.

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

We do not shift from walking by faith to attempting to earn our salvation by works, if we are going to continue in the true faith of Christianity.

The righteousness of God begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17).

Having received Christ by faith (Romans 5:2), we are to continue our walk with Him by faith (Colossians 2:6).

Having begun in the Spirit (by faith) we are not to seek to be made perfect by the flesh (seeking to maintain our salvation by works) (Galatians 3:1-3).

Now in John 15, it should be clear that when we abide in the vine, we will produce good fruit. This fruit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (Galatians 5:22-23) and manifests itself in good works (Titus 3:14).

But I want to say that we do not abide in the vine as the result of bearing good fruit.

We bear good fruit as the result of abiding in the vine.

According to some scripture above, it should be clear that the method by which we abide in the vine, from beginning to end, is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Through faith, we are connected to and draw up nourishment from the vine; and good fruit is produced as the result.

Now it is fair that when we are judged by the Lord, that we will be judged by our fruit.

Bearing good fruit is the evidence that there is a relationship...that we are connected to the vine.

If anyone does not bear good fruit, they will be cast away and burned in the fire.

However, the underlying reason is not because the person isn't bearing good fruit.

The underlying reason is that there is no relationship...and because of this the person does not bear good fruit.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

We are born again by faith; and I would add, we continue to live once we are born again, because of faith.

If we move over from faith to attempting to earn our salvation by what we do, we are no longer abiding...relationship has been compromised.

This is not to say that when we abide in Christ (by faith), we will not do good works or bear good fruit.

Motivation is everything. If we do good works because we feel we are disconnected and are seeking to re-obtain the connection by doing something for God, we have missed it. We need to come back to the Lord by establishing faith.

But if we do good works because we know that we have been redeemed and are simply thankful for the Lord's extravagant and scandalous grace towards us, then we are doing them from the perspective of one who is connected to the vine.

It saddens me that these principles will go right over the head of some because I am speaking in parabolic terms. But the Lord ordained it thus, that the main truths of scripture would be spoken in parables, so that "seeing they might see and not perceive," and "hearing they might hear and not understand."

There are those who simply will not get it.

Oh well, such is the way of life.

stunnedbygrace said:

I don't see continuing (abiding)and growing in trust as lifting a finger toward my salvation. I see it as the obedience of trust. When you have a problem wherein people say that to learn the obedience of trust and grow in grace is men trying to earn a saving, you scarcely know how to answer them.

I guess I find it curious that a man would say he was struck dead on the spot at his new birth experience. My pride of life and presumptuousness and tyranny were not struck dead on the spot, so I cannot relate to it.

Click to expand...

You speak of something conditional, like trust that needs to be earned. That is not the born again experience.

One is not born again unless they are first dead to their former self; and being dead, there is no one left of that person to learn trust--they have gone. Newness of life by spiritual re-birth comes as an infant taking in all that they can, even with bouts of rebel, but never with feet or body or ways of that old man that was. New birth has no need of learning trust...it comes with it.

What you are describing is conversion. Indeed, that is a process of being convinced over time to come fully aboard. If that is where one is, the entire Old and New Testament is your guide. But such a one should not be speculating or forming opinions, let alone teaching and preaching the higher knowledge of all truth that is promised. Such have much to look forward to.

Under the description of what you have described, we should in no way be at odds. Rather, please know that we who have been born of the spirit of God are here for you, here to help. We are family.

GodsGrace said:

And I said that if you want to use John 6:47 you're going to have to explain what BELIEVE means,,,AND at the time that it was used,,,IOW in the Greek.

Fact is there is no such verse where Jesus says all we have to do is have faith.
He spoke for over 3 years about things to do.

Click to expand...

believeth
Strong's 4100
verb, pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o, from 4102, ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing) i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):-believe(r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

4102, noun, pistis, pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of relig. truth, or the truthfulness of God or a relig. teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of relgious (Gospel) truth itself--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity

3982, verb, peitho, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by anal. to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); refl. or pass. to assent (to evdience or authority) to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

So then, obedience is something that is involved in real faith (after looking to the root of the root of the word); and I have never argued against this.

But the primary meaning of faith in all of this is trust.

GodsGrace said:

Fact is there is no such verse where Jesus says all we have to do is have faith.

Click to expand...

John 6:47 is such a verse.

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Mark, don't you think its interesting that those who often have "grace" in their usernames want to resort to making rules for themselves and others and seemingly pay only lip service to the theology of grace?

Click to expand...

How do we ever get through all the rhetoric and have a real discussion??

Make a valid point, and it's as if the other comes back, Oh, you're just ignorant/carnal/whatever anything but a real answer.

Much love! Just try to convince 'em of that though!

ScottA said:

You speak of something conditional, like trust that needs to be earned. That is not the born again experience.

One is not born again unless they are first dead to their former self; and being dead, there is no one left of that person to learn trust--they have gone. Newness of life by spiritual re-birth comes as an infant taking in all that they can, even with bouts of rebel, but never with feet or body or ways of that old man that was. New birth has no need of learning trust...it comes with it.

What you are describing is conversion. Indeed, that is a process of being convinced over time to come fully aboard. If that is where one is, the entire Old and New Testament is your guide. But such a one should not be speculating or forming opinions, let alone teaching and preaching the higher knowledge of all truth that is promised. Such have much to look forward to.

Under the description of what you have described, we should in no way be at odds. Rather, please know that we who have been born of the spirit of God are here for you, here to help. We are family.

Click to expand...

That has not at all been my experience since my new birth and a receiving of the Holy Spirit. My experience has been learning the obedience of trust and giving up my life.

ScottA said:

Do you mind me asking...?

I mean, personally, I was struck dead on the spot and given new life that very moment I came into His presence and in the knowledge of Him. It was finished. So, when I hear this kind of comment -- I find it bizarre.

Click to expand...

Hi Scott,

I really think this goes to the heart of the problem. There is a lack of belief:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We are free from sin BECAUSE we are dead to the flesh and dead to the law. He died, and we died.

Without joining Jesus in His death, there is no salvation.

But it seems many don't realize that, and therefore believe they are still under the power of the flesh, and of sin. But we aren't.

Much love!!

stunnedbygrace said:

I guess I find it curious that a man would say he was struck dead on the spot at his new birth experience. My pride of life and presumptuousness and tyranny were not struck dead on the spot, so I cannot relate to it.

Click to expand...

But you have died in Him. Your pride of life and presumptousness and tyranny were struck dead.

Romans 6
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Much love!

marks said:

How do we ever get through all the rhetoric and have a real discussion??

Make a valid point, and it's as if the other comes back, Oh, you're just ignorant/carnal/whatever anything but a real answer.

Much love! Just try to convince 'em of that though!

Click to expand...

Yes--I've still to get an answer to my question to "Episkopos" of how he can know he has enough good works to keep him from losing his salvation. The good-deed-doers can never answer that question. I was raised in a "social gospel" liberal church--I know well what the issues are. I thank God, that I got to a church where the pastor actually preached the real gospel.

GodsGrace said:

Wow.
You thought I was ignorant.
Thanks.
JUST wow.
What more needs to be said....

Click to expand...

Ignorance can be fixed?

justbyfaith said:

John 6:47 is such a verse.

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Click to expand...

Yes, well, you know the problem with John 6:47...
Apparently you like to repeat without moving forward.

That verse does not work.
And I've told you why.

stunnedbygrace said:

That has not at all been my experience since my new birth and a receiving of the Holy Spirit. My experience has been learning the obedience of trust and giving up my life.

Click to expand...

I believe you...and I don't really want to question your place in God's work in your life. It is wonderful whatever that is.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Yes--I've still to get an answer to my question to "Episkopos" of how he can know he has enough good works to keep him from losing his salvation. The good-deed-doers can never answer that question. I was raised in a "social gospel" liberal church--I know well what the issues are. I thank God, that I got to a church where the pastor actually preached the real gospel.

Click to expand...

I find a good many questions I ask people go unanswered. It seems that many would rather ignore the fact that they have no answers to these foundational questions. Easier to not confront your views though.

Myself, I challenge myself to just believe what I read in the Bible. And wouldn't you know . . . it turns out to be more amazing and glorious and wonderful and powerful than I ever dreamed! And no need to redefine even one word to make it fit "my" doctrine. Because if something doesn't fit, it's not the Bible I try to change.

And you know something else? I likewise see a very clear pattern on the forum of who is humble and apologetic, and who is proud and unapologetic. And I don't mean about doctrine, I mean about behavior. Who is naughty, and who is nice.

Much love!

GodsGrace said:

Yes, well, you know the problem with John 6:47...
Apparently you like to repeat without moving forward.

That verse does not work.
And I've told you why.

Click to expand...

For those of us who missed it--perhaps you would like to reiterate why you think it does not mean what justbyfaith and others here think it does.

justbyfaith said:

believeth
Strong's 4100
verb, pisteuo, pist-yoo'-o, from 4102, ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing) i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ):-believe(r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

4102, noun, pistis, pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of relig. truth, or the truthfulness of God or a relig. teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of relgious (Gospel) truth itself--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity

3982, verb, peitho, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by anal. to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); refl. or pass. to assent (to evdience or authority) to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

So then, obedience is something that is involved in real faith (after looking to the root of the root of the word); and I have never argued against this.

But the primary meaning of faith in all of this is trust.

Click to expand...

Sorry JBF, I just saw this.

All of the above shows that if we believe in someone we obey what they tell us to do. I've been told on this very thread that it is not necessary to obey God.

You might like reading this:

John 3:36... He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Note two verbs in v. 36. First, "he who believes" is literally, "He who is believing in the Son..." Second, notice that the one who is believing "has eternal life." The verb is present, not future. This means that eternal life begins at belief.

Now notice the antithesis of the first sentence in v. 36 in relation to the second sentence. It does not say, "he who is not believing will not see life," rather, it equates not believing with "he who does not obey the Son." These "will not see life." Thus, John equated belief with obedience; faith with action. Clearly no one can claim to believe in Christ yet not obey Him. This exposes the easy-believism as heresy. There can be no salvation in Christ—no true belief—without the fruit of obedience. Anyone can believe Jesus (2:23), but the question is, Does Jesus believe in them? (cf. 2:24-25). After all, even the demons believe, shuddering in the presence of Christ (James 2:19; cf. Mark 1:24). But only those whose faith results in obedience to Christ have eternal life. Without obedience to Christ, eternal life is eternal destruction (2 Thess. 1:9).

The latter part of v. 36 says that for he who does not obey Christ, the "wrath of God abides on him." First, note the word "wrath." The word itself does not entail a sudden gust of passion or a burst of anger. Rather, it is the settled disapproval of God against sin. God is neither easily angered nor malicious, but He is steadfastly committed to opposing and judging all disobedience. Thus, the rejection of His Son can be followed only by retribution, and this is in keeping with the God of love, for His settled wrath against sin is attached to His holy character.

source: http://harvestbiblechurch.net/blog/faith-and-obedience-are-synonymous

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I have lost count of the number of times I have actually been attacked by professing believers when I make the simple – and fully biblical – point that true saving faith is also an obedient faith. One cannot claim to be a believer in Christ if one fails to obey Christ.

Christ in other words must be both Saviour and Lord. You can’t believe in him to get saved, and then ignore him or disobey him the rest of your Christian walk. It does not work that way. And of course I am not talking about sinless perfectionism here.

source: Believing and Obeying - CultureWatch


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UNBELIEF

un-be-lef':

The word (the King James Version) represents two Greek words, apeitheia, "disobedience" (only in Romans 11:30,32; Hebrews 4:6,11), and apistia, "distrust," the antithesis to "faith". (which see). The two words are not only akin etymologically but run into one another by mental connection, certainly where spiritual relations are concerned, as between man and God. For when God has spoken, in precept and yet more in promise, distrust involves, at least potentially, an element of disobedience. His supreme claim is to be trusted to command only what is right, and to promise only what is true. He is infinitely sympathetic in His insight, and infallibly knows where distrust comes only of the dim perceptions and weak mis-givings of our mortal nature, and where, on the other hand, a moral resistance lies at the back of the non-confidence. But the presence of that darker element is always to be suspected, at least, and searched for in serious self-examination.

We may remark that it is a loss in our language that "unbelief" is the only word we can use as the antithesis to "faith"; for "faith" and "belief" (which see) are not exactly synonyms. "Unfaith" would be a welcome word for such use, if it were generally so understood.

source: Unbelief Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary


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A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers." See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.



cont'd

cont'd

See also : pisteuoLuke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.

pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.

See also : peithoRom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13. Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.

It is best understood with significance C1(a), e.g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance C1(b), e.g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.

2 Tim 2:13, AV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."

Matt 13:58; Matt 17:20), three times in Mark (Mark 6:6; Mark 9:24; Mark 16:14), four times in Romans (Rom 3:3; Rom 4:20; Rom 11:20,23); elsewhere in 1 Tim 1:13; Heb 3:12,19.
1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; in 2 Cor 6:15, RV, "unbeliever" (AV, "infidel"); so in 1 Tim 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Cor 7:12-15; 1 Cor 14:22-24; 2 Cor 4:4;Titus 1:15; Rev 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Cor 10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matt 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27, but in Luke 12:46, RV, "unfaithful," AV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.

Luke 1:1 (AV, "are most surely believed," lit., "have had full course"), the RV renders "have been fulfilled." See FULFILL, KNOW, PERSUADE, PROOF.

See also : pistos
Result 2- Unbeliever
2 Cor 6:15; 1 Tim 5:8, RV; plural in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; AV only, Luke 12:46 (RV, "unfaithful"). See BELIEF FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE.

See also : apistos
Result 3- Disbelieve
1 Pet 2:7, "be disobedient"); "disbelieve" (or "disbelieved") in the RV, in Mark 16:11,16; Luke 24:11,41; Acts 28:24; "disbelieve" is the best rendering, implying that the unbeliever has had a full opportunity of believing and has rejected it; some mss. have apeitheo, "to be disobedient," in 1 Pet 2:7; Rom 3:3, RV, "were without faith;" 2 Tim 2:13, RV, "are faithless. Cp. apeitheo under DISOBEDIENT. See BELIEVE.

source: Define BELIEVE | Definition for word BELIEVE Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary BELIEVE

end.

marks said:

Hi Scott,

I really think this goes to the heart of the problem. There is a lack of belief:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We are free from sin BECAUSE we are dead to the flesh and dead to the law. He died, and we died.

Without joining Jesus in His death, there is no salvation.

But it seems many don't realize that, and therefore believe they are still under the power of the flesh, and of sin. But we aren't.

Much love!!

Click to expand...

Yes, many seem to stop and make a career (abide) somewhere between seeking God after being drawn by Him, and spiritual rebirth. And this they seem to do, believing that conversion is salvation itself, rather than simply the promise of salvation. For some reason many see Christianity as a journey rather than a destination. I should think that "playing church" is somewhat to blame. Unfortunately.

ScottA said:

Yes, many seem to stop and make a career (abide) somewhere between seeking God after being drawn by Him, and spiritual rebirth. And this they seem to do, believing that conversion is salvation itself, rather than simply the promise of salvation. For some reason many see Christianity as a journey rather than a destination. I should think that "playing church" is somewhat to blame. Unfortunately.

Click to expand...

You never get to your destination...
unless you make the journey.

Lady Crosstalk said:

Mark, don't you think its interesting that those who often have "grace" in their usernames want to resort to making rules for themselves and others and seemingly pay only lip service to the theology of grace?

Click to expand...

Hey there Lady...watch your mouth...

No bad language on this Site