What I actually believe -- sharing love of Christ

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Jane_Doe22

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@Jane_Doe22

I have to leave...
I looked quickly through Wikepedia under Mormonism...LDS.
So far I haven't seen anything alarming.
The Trinity is different....
Instead of 3 in 1
It becomes 1 in 3

Some Christians think like this...it's not easy to understand the Trinity

LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians (aka Christians that believe the Athanasian Creed) both believe:
Every single word about Christ in the Bible.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Father is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God (are monotheists).
Christ was/is the great I Am, the Only Begotten Son of God.
Christ was one with the Father before the Earth was created. He then created the Earth, was born of a virgin, lived a mortal life with lots of suffering, took the world’s sins upon Himself, died on a cross, rose again on the 3rdday, later rose to heaven, and is coming back again.

The difference comes in:
LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation (Consubstantiality - Wikipedia).

What difference does this make in the day to day:
Not much at all. Realistically, a lot of people sitting in Trinitarians pews have never even heard of the Athanasian Creed. This is a level of deeper theology which doesn’t really affect day-to-day.

I'd find it interesting to really understand the differences.
I happy to explain things! Unfortunately, Prof Google isn't really you friend here (there's a ton of bad information out there).

I like that you're not calvinist.
Haha- LDS Christian are the must extreme un-Calvinist people you can find!
Maybe tomorrow?
I'll be following along.
Sounds great.[/QUOTE]
 
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GodsGrace

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*thumbs up*

(just explaining my views for the rest of this)
Any person God selects can be His servant. Just like in ancient times, in which God picked people like un-educated fishermen, sheep-herders that were on the run for murder, and people that had aided in persecution of God's people. As well as picking educated people too.

Ask God for yourself.

Ok. I likewise personally can't accept the idea that revelation stops, because to me that would be God changing by suddenly stop talking to his people.

Believing that revelation today does exist doesn't mean that you should automatically believe everyone claiming it. Not at all! Again, stressing the part where every person should get on their knees and ask God themselves. There are false teachers out there, but also good ones.

Applies to the Book of Revelation. Just like the nearly identical verse in Dueteronmy applies to Dueteronmy. It doesn't mean God changes and stops talking. Many scholars actually think that some of the books in the Bible might have been written after the Book of Revelation too.
Ask God for myself regarding further revelation?
No...and here's why:
1. I have the bible that could answer any question for me.
This is why we have the bible.
2. I see persons on these forums that ask God....unfortunately, for some reason, He doesn't seem to give us all the same reply. This is a problem as far as I can tell.

I don't think revelation STOPS....
I think it becomes more clear and does continue in that way...
I just don't believe in any NEW revelation.

Of course, I don't know much about LDS, so I'm speaking generally.

I think God is still speaking to His people...
I just think He's repeating the same things...over and over.

As to Revelation 22:18-19 about addng and taking away words....I too questioned this the first time I heard it. It IS referencing Revelation,,,but since John wrote those words, I've come to believe, as most do, that he meant all of his words and not just prophecy in Rev.

IOW,,, if we take it to mean ONLY Rev....does that mean we could add to his words in John or 1 John..etc?

I believe it means all the words in the bible since Jesus was the end of revelation.
 

GodsGrace

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LDS Christians and Athanasian Christians (aka Christians that believe the Athanasian Creed) both believe:
Every single word about Christ in the Bible.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Father is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Christ doesn’t pray to Himself. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God (are monotheists).
Christ was/is the great I Am, the Only Begotten Son of God.
Christ was one with the Father before the Earth was created. He then created the Earth, was born of a virgin, lived a mortal life with lots of suffering, took the world’s sins upon Himself, died on a cross, rose again on the 3rdday, later rose to heaven, and is coming back again.

The difference comes in:
LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through consubstantiation (Consubstantiality - Wikipedia).

What difference does this make in the day to day:
Not much at all. Realistically, a lot of people sitting in Trinitarians pews have never even heard of the Athanasian Creed. This is a level of deeper theology which doesn’t really affect day-to-day.


I happy to explain things! Unfortunately, Prof Google isn't really you friend here (there's a ton of bad information out there).


Haha- LDS Christian are the must extreme un-Calvinist people you can find!

Sounds great.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I hate learning from Prof. Google too!
I only use links when absolutely necessary and only what I know to be correct. (In my learnings, of course).

The Athanasian Creed.
I don't find any problem with it.
I believe the great I AM is God Father,,,but Jesus said He was in the N.T. so it's a nuance I'm not willing to debate. Have a doubt about this though...never thought about it. Everything else seems just fine.

I don't understand very well the difference between the 3 being one in unity or
cosubstantiation --- although I do know what those two terms mean. It's the unity I don't quite get. We say the 3 are 1 in substance, which is the same as cosubstantiation. So what is UNITY?
 

Jane_Doe22

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(Usual disclaimer: I'm just explaining my views. I totally acknowledge that other people have different views. I'm not remotely interested in arguing with anyone).
Ask God for myself regarding further revelation?
No...and here's why:
1. I have the bible that could answer any question for me.
This is why we have the bible.
God speaking to you through the Bible is an example of personal revelation, and by far the most common method.
2. I see persons on these forums that ask God....unfortunately, for some reason, He doesn't seem to give us all the same reply. This is a problem as far as I can tell.
But as you've seen people on their own can interpret the Bible a million ways. That's also why we (as individuals and as a world) have the source material (God Himself) to double check and guide our understanding of scripture. Without revelation from God and His Spirit, we're just a bunch of folks each arguing their interpretation trying to "prove" which is right.
I don't think revelation STOPS....
I think it becomes more clear and does continue in that way...
I just don't believe in any NEW revelation.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I think God is still speaking to His people...
I just think He's repeating the same things...over and over.
Well He does do a lot of that -- we humans are really bad listeners :)
As to Revelation 22:18-19 about addng and taking away words....I too questioned this the first time I heard it. It IS referencing Revelation,,,but since John wrote those words, I've come to believe, as most do, that he meant all of his words and not just prophecy in Rev.
John didn't write the entirety of the Bible, he wrote a book. Some of the other books might not have even been written at that time. The collection of books that is now known as the Bible wasn't assembled until decades later.
IOW,,, if we take it to mean ONLY Rev....does that mean we could add to his words in John or 1 John..etc?
.
We don't add anything-- we listen.
God may continue to speak as much as He wants, and we should listen.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Agreed. I hate learning from Prof. Google too!
I only use links when absolutely necessary and only what I know to be correct. (In my learnings, of course).

The Athanasian Creed.
I don't find any problem with it.
I believe the great I AM is God Father,,,but Jesus said He was in the N.T. so it's a nuance I'm not willing to debate. Have a doubt about this though...never thought about it. Everything else seems just fine.

I don't understand very well the difference between the 3 being one in unity or
cosubstantiation --- although I do know what those two terms mean. It's the unity I don't quite get. We say the 3 are 1 in substance, which is the same as cosubstantiation. So what is UNITY?
"22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
-Jesus Christ, the Intercessory Prayer, John 17:22-23.

The Father and the Son and the Spirit have the exact same unified love for man. The exact same united righteousness. The exact same united commands, mercy, glory, etc. To obey the Son is to obey the others-- they are one. To honor one the Father is to honor the others-- they are one. To love the Son is the love the others-- they are one. Etc.
 

GodsGrace

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(Usual disclaimer: I'm just explaining my views. I totally acknowledge that other people have different views. I'm not remotely interested in arguing with anyone).

God speaking to you through the Bible is an example of personal revelation, and by far the most common method.

But as you've seen people on their own can interpret the Bible a million ways. That's also why we (as individuals and as a world) have the source material (God Himself) to double check and guide our understanding of scripture. Without revelation from God and His Spirit, we're just a bunch of folks each arguing their interpretation trying to "prove" which is right.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Well He does do a lot of that -- we humans are really bad listeners :)

John didn't write the entirety of the Bible, he wrote a book. Some of the other books might not have even been written at that time. The collection of books that is now known as the Bible wasn't assembled until decades later.

We don't add anything-- we listen.
God may continue to speak as much as He wants, and we should listen.
JD, there's no use in continuing down this path...it will get us nowhere.

Please talk to me about what you believe in your faith system, or your theology.
For instance, what do you believe about......
baptism
necessity to obey God
eternal security
what happens immediately at death
is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife?
communion
confession

see. I like the BIG stuff!
 

Jane_Doe22

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JD, there's no use in continuing down this path...it will get us nowhere.

Please talk to me about what you believe in your faith system, or your theology.
For instance, what do you believe about......
baptism
necessity to obey God
eternal security
what happens immediately at death
is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife?
communion
confession

see. I like the BIG stuff!
Cool-- I always love putting the big subjects first.

Let's start with salvation: salvation comes through Jesus Christ. He, the perfect Son of God, died on the Cross, and offers the free gift of salvation to all. We are to have faith in Him and be His disciples. This isn't a whimsical half-hearted saying "yeah, I believe in Christ" while continuing to kiss Satan's feat the exact same as before. Rather it's a real full blown rebirth- coming to follow Him. Real change. Ultimately a person should have faith in Him, repent of their sins, be baptized, and strive to follow Him. Of course by yourself you're going to fall on your face with this -- cause you're a flawed human being. Which is why you're not by yourself: Christ is there with you every step. We (empowered by Christ) strive to follow Him, repent when we reject Him and screw up, and He embraces us again.

(Will write more in a minute)
 
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Jane_Doe22

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JD, there's no use in continuing down this path...it will get us nowhere.

Please talk to me about what you believe in your faith system, or your theology.
For instance, what do you believe about......
baptism
necessity to obey God
eternal security
what happens immediately at death
is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife?
communion
confession

see. I like the BIG stuff!
Continuing... (Note: I'm keeping these answers super short, feel free to ask for an elaboration).

Baptism: being baptized is a super important part of being a disciple of Christ. It's when a person formally accepts Him, covenanting with Him, and takes His name upon themselves. A proper baptism is a believers baptism, done by immersion, and with proper authority.

Necessity to obey God: "If you love me, keep my commandments". A disciple of Christ should strive to keep His commandments. Of course, you by yourself are going to fall on your face. Hence Christ being there every step of the way (see my previous post).

Eternal security: I don't believe in OSAS. If you at the bottom of your heart love God and strive to follow Him, you are/will be His. Conversely, if you don't you're not.

what happens immediately at death: not the Final Judgement wherein every one gets there 'final grade' so to say. The Final Judgement comes after Christ's return and the Millennium. What happens immediately after your mortal death is a 'preliminary grade' so to say-- those people which have accepted Christ have that joy while they await Christ's return. Those that have not yet accepted Christ (such as the many that who never heard of Him during their mortal life) have the opportunity to hear and accept Him now.

is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife? No. Marrying a second person is a grievous sin and grounds for instant excummuniation.

(to be continued)
 
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Jane_Doe22

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JD, there's no use in continuing down this path...it will get us nowhere.

Please talk to me about what you believe in your faith system, or your theology.
For instance, what do you believe about......
baptism
necessity to obey God
eternal security
what happens immediately at death
is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife?
communion
confession

see. I like the BIG stuff!
communion: I'm assuming you're asking about the Lord's Supper. LDS Christians partake in Communion/ the Lord's Supper / Sacrament every week. We do so in memory of Him and His sacrifice. All are welcome to join. For people whom has been formally baptized & covenanted with God, this also serves as a renewal of those promises.

confession: Christ alone is the one that forgives sins. No earthly servant in and of themselves can do that. For majority of sins, confession and repentance doesn't involve any other directly people (unless of course you need to apologize to them or something like that). For super entangling sins (like fornication), a person should come to their local bishop and get their help working through repentance. The bishop serves as guide/helper/authority, not the person who actually does the forgiving (that's Christ).
 
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GodsGrace

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Continuing... (Note: I'm keeping these answers super short, feel free to ask for an elaboration).

Baptism: being baptized is a super important part of being a disciple of Christ. It's when a person formally accepts Him, covenanting with Him, and takes His name upon themselves. A proper baptism is a believers baptism, done by immersion, and with proper authority.

Necessity to obey God: "If you love me, keep my commandments". A disciple of Christ should strive to keep His commandments. Of course, you by yourself are going to fall on your face. Hence Christ being there every step of the way (see my previous post).

Eternal security: I don't believe in OSAS. If you at the bottom of your heart love God and strive to follow Him, you are/will be His. Conversely, if you don't you're not.

what happens immediately at death: not the Final Judgement wherein every one gets there 'final grade' so to say. The Final Judgement comes after Christ's return and the Millennium. What happens immediately after your mortal death is a 'preliminary grade' so to say-- those people which have accepted Christ have that joy while they await Christ's return. Those that have not yet accepted Christ (such as the many that who never heard of Him during their mortal life) have the opportunity to hear and accept Him now.

is yours the faith that states one can have more than 1 wife? No. Marrying a second person is a grievous sin and grounds for instant excummuniation.

(to be continued)
I'm agreed to all.
I just think that if immersion is not possible, then sprinkling is OK.
I say this because it's what the ECFs believed and not everywhere is it easy to come by that much water.

I could speak to you about those that have not heard about Christ,,,,but I'm just too tired today.

could you remind me please?
Those that have not heard about Jesus or are worshipping a "different" God....
 

GodsGrace

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communion: I'm assuming you're asking about the Lord's Supper. LDS Christians partake in Communion/ the Lord's Supper / Sacrament every week. We do so in memory of Him and His sacrifice. All are welcome to join. For people whom has been formally baptized & covenanted with God, this also serves as a renewal of those promises.

confession: Christ alone is the one that forgives sins. No earthly servant in and of themselves can do that. For majority of sins, confession and repentance doesn't involve any other directly people (unless of course you need to apologize to them or something like that). For super entangling sins (like fornication), a person should come to their local bishop and get their help working through repentance. The bishop serves as guide/helper/authority, not the person who actually does the forgiving (that's Christ).
Again I agree.
Do you believe in the real presence?
 

Hisman

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I think God is still speaking to His people...
I just think He's repeating the same things...over and over.

How about adding - He is speaking the same thing over but at a 'deeper level' than the last level that we understood?

So, agree it wouldn't be 'new' as such ( not to Him anyway) but it would be new and deeper from our own personal and previous understanding of whatever He last showed us.

If this is not so, then why was Pauls heart cry- "Oh that I might know Him...."
Paul knew there were hidden depths.
And spent his life revealing in his writings some of the 'hidden depths' of Christ.
 
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GodsGrace

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How about adding - He is speaking the same thing over but at a 'deeper level' than the last level that we understood?

So, agree it wouldn't be 'new' as such ( not to Him anyway) but it would be new and deeper from our own personal and previous understanding of whatever He last showed us.

If this is not so, then why was Pauls heart cry- "Oh that I might know Him...."
Paul knew there were hidden depths.
And spent his life revealing in his writings some of the 'hidden depths' of Christ.
I agree 100%.

This is what I mean when I say that revelation becomes more clear.
Thanks for saying it in a much better way.
And welcome to the forum.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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I'm agreed to all.
I just think that if immersion is not possible, then sprinkling is OK.
I say this because it's what the ECFs believed and not everywhere is it easy to come by that much water.

I could speak to you about those that have not heard about Christ,,,,but I'm just too tired today.

could you remind me please?
Those that have not heard about Jesus or are worshipping a "different" God....
God is infinitely just.
A person who has not accept Christ needs to accept Him and repent of their wicked ways. Those whom have not have the opportunity to do so before their mortal death will have the opportunity to do so as spirits after their mortal death but before the Millennium and Final Judgement.
Again I agree.
Do you believe in the real presence?
No: the Lord's Supper is symbolic, not literal flesh and blood. And it has the power to bring men closer to Christ.
 

Jane_Doe22

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How about adding - He is speaking the same thing over but at a 'deeper level' than the last level that we understood?

So, agree it wouldn't be 'new' as such ( not to Him anyway) but it would be new and deeper from our own personal and previous understanding of whatever He last showed us.

If this is not so, then why was Pauls heart cry- "Oh that I might know Him...."
Paul knew there were hidden depths.
And spent his life revealing in his writings some of the 'hidden depths' of Christ.
I agree 100%.

This is what I mean when I say that revelation becomes more clear.
Thanks for saying it in a much better way.
And welcome to the forum.
I"m a little unsure of what you both mean here. Obviously God knows everything and there's nothing new to Him. We know relatively very little and are still learning (both as individuals and a collective), and hence learn things that are new to us.
 

GodsGrace

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God is infinitely just.
A person who has not accept Christ needs to accept Him and repent of their wicked ways. Those whom have not have the opportunity to do so before their mortal death will have the opportunity to do so as spirits after their mortal death but before the Millennium and Final Judgement.

No: the Lord's Supper is symbolic, not literal flesh and blood. And it has the power to bring men closer to Christ.
OK.
I won't debate the Real Presence because I'm not sure myself.
I understand both sides,,,I can only say that the wafer or piece of bread should be honored since it is an honor to receive it and to remember what Jesus did for us.
If some want to believe in the real presence that's fine with me.

I do have a problem with the "second change" after death.
Here's why:

1. Somebody dies. They wake up and Jesus is telling them about how they could be saved forever and live with Him.
What idiot is going to say no?

2. What about the fact that this is not mentioned anywhere in the N.T.?

3. Paul said that man dies one time and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

4. I can understand that some might believe that we "sleep" until the resurrection, but nowhere can it be understood that we have a second chance.

Do you have scripture?
 

GodsGrace

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I"m a little unsure of what you both mean here. Obviously God knows everything and there's nothing new to Him. We know relatively very little and are still learning (both as individuals and a collective), and hence learn things that are new to us.
I'm sure @Hisman will also reply,,,
but what I can say is that this has been my point....
God knows everything...
He let us know what we need to know to help us...since we will NEVER understand everything about the spiritual world.

But He is not letting us know anything NEW that was NEVER revealed before.
This is not possible or Jesus mission can be said to have failed because He neglected to tell us what Father God wanted Him to.

Jesus even said He speaks for God Father...
John 12:49

Unless Jesus comes back,,,there can be no FURTHER revelation that is NEW to us.
 

Jane_Doe22

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OK.
I won't debate the Real Presence because I'm not sure myself.
I understand both sides,,,I can only say that the wafer or piece of bread should be honored since it is an honor to receive it and to remember what Jesus did for us.
If some want to believe in the real presence that's fine with me.
Cool.
LDS Christians honor the Lord's Supper, remembering Him and His sacrifice. Just not literally deifying the Supper.
I'm totally cool acknowledging other folks positions o this matter, and as usual don't plan of trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just explaining my views here, totally acknowledging that they are not standard ones.
1. Somebody dies. They wake up and Jesus is telling them about how they could be saved forever and live with Him.
What idiot is going to say no?.
No Jesus yet-- it's not the Second Coming yet. The person is just a spirit, and still a person-- that same stubbornness, pride, and love for sin is still there.
2. What about the fact that this is not mentioned anywhere in the N.T.?
I could respond to this several ways. one LDS Christian go and point to some verses in the NT talking about this ( like 1 Peter 3:18–20, 1 Peter 4:6, Luke 16:19–31) as evidence. Other LDS-Christian-specific scriptures point blank talk about it (Doctrine and Covenants 138).

But speaking personally, for me, the NT isn't a letter from a dead man, it's totally ok that all the marvels of God are not thoroughly laid out therein. And I've never met another Christian who truly believed in sola scriptura-- there's always something else there too. I just don't see much of any theological point being "proven" using sola scriptura method, and I'm not really pushed to try to "prove" this or any other point with such a methodology.

I do realize that that's probably not what you were expecting to hear.
3. Paul said that man dies one time and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27
Literal death does come one time, and then after that there is judgment (both temporary judgement and the later Final Judgement). And Paul was preaching to people whom have heard the Gospel.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I'm sure @Hisman will also reply,,,
but what I can say is that this has been my point....
God knows everything...
He let us know what we need to know to help us...since we will NEVER understand everything about the spiritual world.

But He is not letting us know anything NEW that was NEVER revealed before.
This is not possible or Jesus mission can be said to have failed because He neglected to tell us what Father God wanted Him to.

Jesus even said He speaks for God Father...
John 12:49

Unless Jesus comes back,,,there can be no FURTHER revelation that is NEW to us.
I don't quite understand your stance here. Every time a person or group learns something more, then they have learned something new to them. To not be learning something is to just not be learning at all and instead atrophy. It seems like total silence between man and God.

Sorry if I'm being dense here and just not "getting" what you're saying, and thank you for your patience in explaining it to me.
 
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GodsGrace

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Cool.
LDS Christians honor the Lord's Supper, remembering Him and His sacrifice. Just not literally deifying the Supper.
I'm totally cool acknowledging other folks positions o this matter, and as usual don't plan of trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just explaining my views here, totally acknowledging that they are not standard ones.

No Jesus yet-- it's not the Second Coming yet. The person is just a spirit, and still a person-- that same stubbornness, pride, and love for sin is still there.

I could respond to this several ways. one LDS Christian go and point to some verses in the NT talking about this ( like 1 Peter 3:18–20, 1 Peter 4:6, Luke 16:19–31) as evidence. Other LDS-Christian-specific scriptures point blank talk about it (Doctrine and Covenants 138).

But speaking personally, for me, the NT isn't a letter from a dead man, it's totally ok that all the marvels of God are not thoroughly laid out therein. And I've never met another Christian who truly believed in sola scriptura-- there's always something else there too. I just don't see much of any theological point being "proven" using sola scriptura method, and I'm not really pushed to try to "prove" this or any other point with such a methodology.

I do realize that that's probably not what you were expecting to hear.

Literal death does come one time, and then after that there is judgment (both temporary judgement and the later Final Judgement). And Paul was preaching to people whom have heard the Gospel.
What do you mean, NO JESUS YET?
Till the 2nd coming....
what does the person do in the meantime?
WHO is preaching to them?
Could these be the "ghosts" we hear about? (I'm serious).


I don't know ANYONE who knows for sure who those spirits in prison are.
I can't even talk about it. And 4:6 is the same.

Luke 16 is Hades where the dead waited for Jesus death and resurrection.
Those that were saved were waiting in Abraham's bossom,,,those that were not saved were divided by a chasm and in "torment".
When Jesus opened the gates of heaven...those in Abraham's Bossom went to heaven, and so has everyone else since Jesus died.
Mathew 27:51

Regarding the Covenant 138
HERE is my problem....
Why should I care what vision Joseph Smith had?
No. Really. Why?
He's just another guy, right?

I really would like to read that whole chapter but it's getting late here...tomorrow.

This is the same problem I have with John Calvin.
HIS institutions are quoted and read and believed.
It's like HE is more important than scripture.

Some think the catholic church is like this...
but it's not. NO ONE MAN is revered in the catholic church.
One woman is,,,but she didn't come up with any theology.

Do you see my point?
I think what you believe is OK...
but I don't like that there's a MAN at the head of the church.