The Coming Great Apostasy

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Copperhead

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We have yet to see any scriptural proof of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

Oh don't be silly. Yes there has been ample scripture support shown here and on other threads. You just choose to disagree with it. Which is fine. But that doesn't mean you are the final arbiter of these issues. You are just another member in the body. Only worth anything because of Yeshua. You are not above the apostles or anyone else for that matter. You see passages differently than others, and I have no problem with that. None of us see every passage in the same way. We are not a body of robots. But you come across somewhat as leaven on this issue.

And at the transfiguration of Yeshua in front of Peter, John, and James, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. We know that Moses' body was taken by Michael per Jude. And Elijah was caught up. Then they appear along side Yeshua. Seems rather clear cut. Where were they hiding if not in Heaven?

Your comments exhibit one who is taking this way too far. You make derogatory and inflammatory statements about those who hold views other that yours, and seem to have increased the intensity of your vitriol toward others and their views. I really am starting to question if you truly are of the body because I have never seen any evidence of the Spirit in your comments to others. It is bordering on the appearance that you are plant here to cause dissension in the body. Oh, how I hope that is not true for your sake.
 
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Keraz

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Evidently you do not understand the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture otherwise you would not be making such comments.
Evidently you do not understand our purpose as Christian believers.
Jesus plainly told us to do what we can to spread the Gospel and to maintain the faith until He Returns. Matthew 28:19-20
Do you even believe that Christ is presently in Heaven, and that all those who die in Christ go to Heaven?
Jesus is in heaven, but also spiritually with us on earth.
You are like most; cannot comprehend how the Spiritual realm is anywhere and everywhere, quite a different concept from our earthly situation.
Where are those who die? The dead 'sleep' in their graves, Eccl 9:5-6, +. The next conscious moment for them will be standing before God at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-5
 

Keraz

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Oh don't be silly. Yes there has been ample scripture support shown here and on other threads. You just choose to disagree with it.
I have good company: Jesus disagrees with the idea of anyone going to live in heaven.
John 3:13, John 8:21-23, John 7:34, John 17:15, Revelation 3:10
You make derogatory and inflammatory statements about those who hold views other that yours,
You may see my posts in that light, because they rattle your cage.
What should be a reasoned discussion becomes a nasty exchange, as I present proofs for the case of God's people remaining on earth and doing what God wants of His people.
You, and all the other people who have been deluded, as Jesus said could happen, Matthew 24:4, do not have any real proof of the rapture to heaven of the Church theory, so you make me out to be a bad guy; resorting to accusations that I hate your belief.
Opposing and hating, are not the same.
I feel an obligation to show my fellow Christians the Bible truth, that is my duty. If people reject that, it is to their detriment.
 

Copperhead

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You may see my posts in that light, because they rattle your cage.

They only rattle my cage because you who claim to be a part of Messiah acts so unlike Messiah and shows contempt for others in the body. One who should reflect Yeshua is reflecting the world system. And you piling on of scripture doesn't mitigate that. Even Satan knows the scripture better than you and quoted it and misapplied it when it suited his purpose and still does.

You cannot rattle my cage they way you think you are. You are far too much of an amateur to pull that off. That hasn't been possible since i spent the decade of the 1970's in the Army.
 
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Copperhead

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If one was to contend and prevails as it was here are they not serving God and yes you are correct it was given to him by an Angel due to this, he was not born to it.
Sadly what you are doing is denying that Jesus came and are looking to another.

You are totally in error on that part of your post. You might want to read the account of Jacob in Genesis 32. He wrestled with the Lord, quite likely a pre-NT incarnation of Yeshua. Thru the account it is clear that Jacob is wrestling with God and Jacob / Israel even named the place Peniel "facing El", El being the shortened form of Elohim, because he had seen the Lord face to face. And the entire time of that account, Jacob was still the elect of Yahweh. He was indeed born into the promise established by Yahweh as an unconditional covenant with Abraham. His name was changed from Jacob to Israel by the Lord, not some angel.

And denying that Yeshua came and am looking for another? Man, you need to see a doctor.
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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You are totally in error on that part of your post. You might want to read the account of Jacob in Genesis 32. He wrestled with the Lord, quite likely a pre-NT incarnation of Yeshua. Thru the account it is clear that Jacob is wrestling with God and Jacob / Israel even named the place Peniel "facing El", El being the shortened form of Elohim, because he had seen the Lord face to face. And the entire time of that account, Jacob was still the elect of Yahweh. He was indeed born into the promise established by Yahweh as an unconditional covenant with Abraham. His name was changed from Jacob to Israel by the Lord, not some angel.

And denying that Yeshua came and am looking for another? Man, you need to see a doctor.
He did not wrestle with God. it was an Angel a Messenger of the Lord. no one came to know God until Jesus came. he may of seen his majesty their of. no one wrestles God.
Sure he was a devout Jew, that's why the angel came to him.

Just using the name Yeshua is crap, it's Jesus the Christ ! I think that you may not truly know who Jesus is. are you looking for another ? many are and that's why the obsession with the 2ed coming. because they do not know him, that means that they are not truly born again, for if they were they would know him and are in the Kingdom of God now.
If you are not in the Kingdom now you must be outside of it looking for another ?

I am trying to work out what you are.
 

Keraz

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One who should reflect Yeshua is reflecting the world system. And you piling on of scripture doesn't mitigate that
What I reflect, what I promote; is just what the Prophetic Word informs us about out future. You object to it because it conflicts with you beliefs. All can see that you do this, as you present nothing other than your opinion and now you resort to character assassination.
What WILL happen:

The enemies of the Lord gather - Micah 4:11-12, Ezekiel 36:2

They conspire to attack Israel - Psalms 83:1-8, Isaiah 21:2

They prepare their weapons - Psalms 7:12, Ezekiel 7:14 [This is the situation today]


At the moment of attack, God will use His Creation: the sun to send fire - Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-43, Isaiah 30:26 & 30, Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, , Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:12-17

The sun will explode with an extremely bright flash and the moon will reflect bright red - Isaiah 30:26, Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Habakkuk 3:4-5

The Lord will make their weapons recoil upon themselves, the Electro-Magnetic Pulse hit will cause them to explode - Psalms 7:13-16, Joel 3:4, Obadiah 15

Then the sun, moon and stars will be obscured by the approaching Coronal Mass Ejection - Psalms 18:11-12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 32:7-8, Amos 8:9

A huge superhot mass of hydrogen plasma approaches the earth – Joel 1:15-20, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Everyone on earth will be shocked and terrified - Jeremiah 6:24-26, Ezekiel 21:5-7a, Isaiah 13:6-8, Revelation 6:15-17

The atmosphere will be pushed aside – Revelation 6:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4

The whole earth will be enveloped by fire - Isaiah 66:15, Zeph. 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7

Only a remnant will survive in the Holy Land - Zechariah 13:8-9, Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27

He will punish the nations, all the wicked will die - Isaiah 63:1-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 14 18-20, Isaiah 66:17, Isaiah 29:20-21, Hebrews 10:27

His enemies will become ashes - Malachi 4:3, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:2, Matthew 3:12b

Millions will die around the world - Psalms 97:3-5, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 13:12

The Lord will protect those who call to Him - Isaiah 43:2, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

But many people will take shelter until it passes. Isaiah 2:19, Revelation 6:15

The survivors form a One World Govt. - Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 17:12

The Holy Land will be regenerated - Ezekiel 36:8, Joel 2:21-24, Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Jeremiah 33:12-14

And the Lord's righteous people will gather there. - Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9-14

They will become the new nation of Beulah - Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 36:3-38, Jer. 31

They will build a new Temple – Zechariah 6:15, Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 40 to 48

The attack by a Northern army will be won by the Lord – Ezekiel 38:22, Joel 2:20

The leaders of Beulah will sign a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the O.W.G. Daniel 9:27, Isaiah 28:15

At the mid point he will break it and conquer Beulah -Daniel 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

This commences the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation - Rev 8:2

Those who kept their faith in God will be taken to a safe place on earth. Daniel 11:32b, Revelation 12:14

3.5 years later, Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign - Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-4

The Lord has told us His plans and He will not relent or change them - Jeremiah 4:28

There are plenty more prophesies and details to prove this scenario.

Believe it or not; up to everyone to decide! Psalms 19:11-12, Isaiah 48:6
 

JohnPaul

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You are 100% correct! I preach the same all the time!
Consider this, the mark of the beast is going to bring the "falling away first", and it won't be "religious" in any way. In fact it will appeal to "the natural man".

After their orchestrated " Chaos" is in full swing, the purpose of it is to line up everyone for their one world government.
So then, who will have faith then? Only born again Christians, and that's all. All others will have sold out their "birthright" for food and paying the bills (remember Esau).
The mark will be directly tied in with your "digitized" bank account.
No mark? Then no access to your account!

Yes, peace on earth sounds so right doesn't it?
But that's NOT what Jesus said!
Luke 12[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
What is a Born Again Christian? Educate me I’m new here.
 

Copperhead

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Just using the name Yeshua is crap, it's Jesus the Christ ! I think that you may not truly know who Jesus is. are you looking for another

You have some serious issues and need to see a doctor. If you have a problem with the Messiah's true Hebrew name and title, especially since He is a Hebrew and Judean, it could be that you don't know who He is. Your call. I have no problem with anyone who calls Him Jesus, as it is the common name in the English speaking world because of translation and tradition. I never give any one grief for not calling Him Yeshua. I prefer to do so because of the literal meaning of the name in Hebrew. But I will buy you a fine meal at a premier restaurant if you can find the literal name "Jesus" in the Hebrew or the literal title "the Christ" in Hebrew. You can't. The complete name and title pronunciation is Yeshua haMashiach. And that He would be called this name was prophecies in Zechariah.

Yes, Jacob wrestled with God. There is no angel in the account.....

Genesis 32:22-32 (NKJV) And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob's hip in the muscle that shrank.
 
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Copperhead

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You object to it because it conflicts with you beliefs.

No, I object to you because of the lack of evidence of the Spirit and a rather worldly style in your response to me an others. Your use of ridicule and demeaning the character and of folks who hold other views. I question you being of the Body. Like I stated, piling on a stack of Bible references does not prove a thing. Even Satan used scripture in arguing with the Lord.
 

Keraz

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No, I object to you because of the lack of evidence of the Spirit and a rather worldly style in your response to me an others. Your use of ridicule and demeaning the character and of folks who hold other views. I question you being of the Body. Like I stated, piling on a stack of Bible references does not prove a thing. Even Satan used scripture in arguing with the Lord.
How can you make a judgment on my Spirit? You cannot properly know anyone without meeting and spending time with them.

I do not ridicule you personally; just saying that you have been fooled by false teachings, is not ridicule.

I provided 89 Bible refs in #948, in a coherent and logical sequence of the end time events.
Why don't you, or anyone show me where I'm wrong, if you do think that?
 

Copperhead

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How can you make a judgment on my Spirit? You cannot properly know anyone without meeting and spending time with them.

I do not ridicule you personally; just saying that you have been fooled by false teachings, is not ridicule.

I provided 89 Bible refs in #948, in a coherent and logical sequence of the end time events.
Why don't you, or anyone show me where I'm wrong, if you do think that?

I didn’t make a judgement on your spirit. I said there was a lack of evidence of the Spirit in you by the way you deal with those who hold other views. I did make the comment that you come across like leaven.

We have been over many of the passages you posted. Most of them you take allegorically so there is no base line to discuss them further.
 

Keraz

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I did make the comment that you come across like leaven.
You are right, that is what I am; just as the ancient prophets were, lone voices in the wilderness.
I promote what they wrote, so to be ignored, castigated, and rejected as they were, is all I should expect.
As many scriptures say; only as these things happen, will the 'dough' people finally understand.
We have been over many of the passages you posted.
I don't recall any proper discussion with you about the actually prophesied end time events. Please address #948.
Most of them you take allegorically so there is no base line to discuss them further.
Wrong. I believe in a literal fulfilment of every prophecy, excepting where the prophets use obvious allegory and metaphor. Which can most often be explained literally from other verses.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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You have some serious issues and need to see a doctor. If you have a problem with the Messiah's true Hebrew name and title, especially since He is a Hebrew and Judean, it could be that you don't know who He is. Your call. I have no problem with anyone who calls Him Jesus, as it is the common name in the English speaking world because of translation and tradition. I never give any one grief for not calling Him Yeshua. I prefer to do so because of the literal meaning of the name in Hebrew. But I will buy you a fine meal at a premier restaurant if you can find the literal name "Jesus" in the Hebrew or the literal title "the Christ" in Hebrew. You can't. The complete name and title pronunciation is Yeshua haMashiach. And that He would be called this name was prophecies in Zechariah.

Yes, Jacob wrestled with God. There is no angel in the account.....

Genesis 32:22-32 (NKJV) And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob's hip in the muscle that shrank.
A true Christian who speaks English calls him Jesus Christ.

The thing is that when one may say Jesus but that does not mean that they are talking about the Lord Jesus you know.

When one understands the workings of Satan you know, now lets say I have come across people like that, they will say things that are out of line or off skew by just a bit and we can all be in agreement with what we thought was conveyed. but when one thinks about it all later going over it all one can find holes in such and then at the next meting I would put it to them, just to make sure we were all on the same page and I found that they were not. now they may be coming in from a different angle at times to mean the same thing but that is not the case all the time as some have their own religious agendas, they have not the Holy Spirit but are all about worldly works and their aim is to get from one point to another, just like freemasonry is. now they make out rubbish like look Israel is coming back for one and say it's Gods work ? but the fact is this is a mans works only and nothing to do with God at all.

Another is bastardising names that they love to tamper with and it's all to do with skewing just a bit or totally so as to lead all astray and rubbish names like creating deceptions like calling some people Messianic Jews and all the nonsense that is involved with that gibberish is laughable. but fools will swallow it.
Satan is the master of deceptions.
As for your attempt on putting forward a skew on Israel, such comes across to me as only a worldly point of view that any atheist clown on the street would come to such a conclusion. not to mention that they do, I can be talking to an atheist and their opinion is the same as that of the crafty devils making out that they are Christians but are truly not Christians at all, they do not believe that Jesus is the Christ and they do not abide in him, for if they did they would not be peddling such total pathetic rubbish that they do.

Are you a Messianic Jew supporter ? such people do not truly support Jesus Christ at all and they are not truly Christians at all.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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I had one Satanic so called Christian leader ask me about the Jewish people I know, he thought that they were Messianic Jews from what a mate tolled him some time before and I pointed out that they were only Jews and that their is no such thing truly as to Messianic Jews. they claim to be but they don't cut the grade to cut it to be even true Christians, so that sorts that lie out for a start and fact is they are on about another Jesus and they certainly do not know Jesus Christ in fact.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Gen 32: 24 He took them and sent them across the stream, with everything that belonged to him. 25 but Jacob himself remained behind all alone.

Now in understanding the gravity of what is going on in all this part of the story and not sound biting like in just pointing to some lines, one with the Holy Spirit would know that the Man who blessed Jacob and all was an Angel. only a worldly idiot would think otherwise, as if he was just some dude out of the blue that popped out and did such and then said anything of such worth.
And the KJ points it out and says Prince with God = Servant of God. = Israel !
To try to bastardise this claiming that it was some no body dealing with Jacob is insane, not to mention any non believer would claim the same dribble you are pushing with such.
 

Davy

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I gave you two book references from reputable college professors that are well versed in the history of the issue. That fact that you have decided to bury your head in a bucket of bias doesn't change the facts. You have provided no substantial proof except nonsense you have heard from others. Hardly worthy of consideration.

Pre-trib is all a hoax, including their attempt at Revisionist history.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2004_macpherson_revisers-rapture.html