Please explain this.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Actually, John Wesley, if the biographers are correct, never taught that sinless perfectibility was possible in this life. It was his followers who came up with that. I was raised in the Methodist Church--very liberal, except for some of the older ones who still believed biblical doctrine. It was very social gospel as well--that one went to heaven based on being pretty good and doing good works (which is why that makes my blood boil when I come across it). I never heard the true gospel in my church growing up. Had I done so, it would have probably saved me heartache.

Satan was working even then to pervert the gospel. Christianity has always been a "boiling pot" which I suspect God permits for a purpose. That is why I love His word because: 2 Timothy 3:16

A bit mechanistic for my tastes but, I suppose that it helped put the "fear of God" into some (either that or the fear of Father McMonagle--as my husband, a former RC--has said--LOL).

Yes. ONLY HE has ever achieved sinless perfection here on earth. It is to destroy a central doctrine in Christianity to insist that sinless perfection is possible for mere mortals like us--and it is prideful (guess who would like us to believe that we can "become like God"). Sin goes with the territory of mortality. When we become immortal, then we will become like Him and be safely beyond the grip of the evil one.

Yes. In an odd sort of way, teaching sinless perfection invites the evil one into one's life. A mega church pastor whose ministry I am acquainted with, became devoted to Calvinism, and used that as a springboard into saying that, since he was a member of the Elect, that nothing he did could cause God to be displeased with him. He paid lip-service to the idea of being a sinner but we show what we really believe in our behavior. He fleeced the denomination out of millions upon millions of dollars, and lived an extremely worldly life. It is difficult to see how he got away with all of the double-dealing and constant lying and abuse of everyone with whom he came into contact. He was recently tossed out of the pulpit but he has done a LOT of damage to the denomination which he and others founded.

Can't remember if I've answered this.
Please see my post no. 1664 which pretty much answers to the above.

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Can't remember if I've answered this.
Please see my post no. 1664 which pretty much answers to the above.

The stories of Charles, John, and Samuel Wesley, coming soon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
but no one thought that someone who was "blameless" was sinless--else why the compulsory Temple attendance at the Feast of Atonement?

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-3)...but the blood of Jesus does indeed take away sins (1 John 1:7, 1 John 3:5).

Lady Crosstalk said:
Who but Jesus ever walked the earth sinless?

1 John 1:10 would tell us that no one but Jesus could have walked sinless from conception to eternity...however I have already brought up verses that show that we can walk in freedom from the power of sin from the moment we repent and give our hearts to Christ.

GodsGrace said:
He DOES say that we will be truly free in Him.
Truly free from what?
Truly free TO what?

From the power of sin.

To the power of righteousness.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Grailhunter said:
The ladies are not exorcists, so it maybe time for you and your familiar demon to move along and haunt someone else.

Gen 6:3, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Mar 3:28, Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Having been baptized in Jesus' Name, I know that I have fulfilled the condition necessary to receive the Holy Ghost. See Acts 2:38-39.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

aspen said:
I do not believe we can be sinless on earth, but most people do not believe this. What is worse, especially because it is a pervasive belief within Christianity today, is total depravity. It is a lie straight from Hell sent to short circuit our sanctification. Even after we are justified and supposedly free from our complete worthless ‘worm’ status, you still hear Christian’s false humility at full volume - “I am nothing, it is the power of Jesus! I am filth and worthlessness; it is only Him within this pitiful shell called me! Any accomplishment or spiritual growth or transformation is Jesus’s work merely witnessed by me!” The result is far from living a victorious life. We are supposed to be is a transforming relationship with Jesus and encouraged towards loving perfectly like Him by the Holy Spirit He provided for us! Even in our sinful days, we were creatures who were created good.

If I were trying to destroy the work of God on Earth, I would promote dualism (distract people from loving others by teaching them to label Gods good creation with positive and negative opinions), personal entitlement, and simultaneously, total depravity.

We seem to be going to extremes.
While on earth we will have sin.
BUT we must not live in sin. I think it's very important
to understand the difference.

I hear from persons who say they do not have to follow any laws because they are not under the law. Of these there are two types:

1. A person who believes the above but lives a holy (set apart) life for God and does their best to obey God.

2. A person that feels he can live however he wants and still be saved because Jesus "did it all". These persons are in danger but do not even realize it.

I hear from persons who say the could live a sinless life and that this is possible.
Of course, it's not possible and discourages many new Christians who may have a faith in God but give up due to the impossibility they're faced with. They prefer to give up on God...throw in the towel...rather than to pursue a sinless life.

I like what you said about false humility.
Giving all the credit to God as if He's manipulating our mouth, arms and feet to do His will. They fear that taking any credit at all is being prideful and taking glory away from God....as if glory COULD BE taken away from God...this is also impossible. God IS glory...how does one take away a part of a person?

I keep hearing about how God sees our works as dirty rags from those that aren't even taking the verses in context. As if our good deeds were dirty rags to God when all Jesus spoke about for 3 years was to show us how to belong to the Kingdom of God by our behavior and our good deeds....which are only US doing the will of the Father,,,just as Jesus did. Even Paul said to follow his example as he follows Jesus' example.
1 Corinthians 11:1

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Grailhunter said:
So likewise here, you present yourself before 3 people that you know, you have no chance of pulling the wool over their eyes….no chance…no chance with your shotgun scriptures, and no chance to match wit, yet you persist with this sad perversion that you call a religion. I believe you are here hoping someone can save you from your own beliefs…..I suggested that you talk with the ladies, but it does not seem that it is helping you….so you tell me why you continue to talk?

The love of Christ compels me to continue to share the gospel message.

No, I do not need "salvation from my own beliefs"...I am very happy with them; for they have secured for me eternal life.

I do not call my relationship with Christ a "religion".

And I am not trying to "pull the wool over" anyone's eyes.

The fact that you have hardened your heart against the truth does mean that you have a much slimmer chance of entering the kingdom when the final tally is made.

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-3)...but the blood of Jesus does indeed take away sins (1 John 1:7, 1 John 3:5).

The prophets and kings of Israel understood that the blood of bulls and goats did not take away sin (see Luke 10:24). They knew that God would one day send His very own Lamb who would take away sin and that the sacrificial system was just a stop-gap until the Lamb would come. That is how John the Baptist could be understood when he saw Jesus and announced, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." (John 1:29) It was also why Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
I hear from persons who say the could live a sinless life and that this is possible.
Of course, it's not possible and discourages many new Christians who may have a faith in God but give up due to the impossibility they're faced with. They prefer to give up on God...throw in the towel...rather than to pursue a sinless life.

The prospect of eternal life vs. an eternity in hell ought to make the penitent to persevere in seeking the Lord for that second benefit spoken of in 2 Corinthians 1:15...in the meantime, I believe that Romans 4:11 would teach us that a person can be justified in Christ apart from the second benefit. The second benefit, I think, is mainly for those who have a conscience that they are afflicted by in a healthy manner. Those who truly cry out with Paul, Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death! can indeed capably be blessed with the sanctified life spoken of in Romans 8. Those who have been afflicted by the consciousness of sins can be relieved from that affliction, Hebrews 10:2, compare to Hebrews 1:3.

GodsGrace said:
I keep hearing about how God sees our works as dirty rags from those that aren't even taking the verses in context. As if our good deeds were dirty rags to God when all Jesus spoke about for 3 years was to show us how to belong to the Kingdom of God by our behavior and our good deeds....which are only US doing the will of the Father,,,just as Jesus did.

That which is done in our own strength, even in the power of the flesh, is indeed filthy rags according to Isaiah 64:6.

That which is done in faith, however, is fine linen according to Revelation 19:8 (kjv).

It is the difference between my own righteousness, which is of the law; and His righteousness, which is of the Lord by faith. Philippians 3:9.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Gen 6:3, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Mar 3:28, Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30, Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Having been baptized in Jesus' Name, I know that I have fulfilled the condition necessary to receive the Holy Ghost. See Acts 2:38-39.

Who here blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?
Which condition did you fulfill to receive the Holy Spirit?
Don't all Christians have the Holy Spirit at the time of believing?

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
The stories of Charles, John, and Samuel Wesley, coming soon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please post this Rollo,
I know John Wesley but not Samuel and Charles.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-3)...but the blood of Jesus does indeed take away sins (1 John 1:7, 1 John 3:5).

Then why the sacrificial system n the O.T.?

1 John 1:10 would tell us that no one but Jesus could have walked sinless from conception to eternity...however I have already brought up verses that show that we can walk in freedom from the power of sin from the moment we repent and give our hearts to Christ.

What you post is rather confusing JBF.
At times it sounds like you're saying that we could live sin-free while living on this earth.

At times, such as above, you state that we can walk from the FREEDOM OF THE POWER OF SIN, which is the bondage to satan, which we left at salvation.

WHICH IS IT?
The 1st is incorrect.
The 2nd is correct.

From

the power of sin.

To the power of righteousness.

Correct.
But does our walking away from the power of sin and being saved by it mean that we will NEVER SIN? Or does it mean we are not in bondage to satan with our sin nature?

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Who here blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?
Which condition did you fulfill to receive the Holy Spirit?
Don't all Christians have the Holy Spirit at the time of believing?

The condition for receiving the Holy Spirit is to ask, seek, and knock (Luke 11:9-13).

There is an absolute promise (found in Acts 2:38-39) that is conditional...and if anyone fulfills that condition, they are absolutely promised the Holy Ghost and cannot have a "familiar demon".

Because He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Because Jesus dwells in me and is stronger than any demon, every last one of them has to flee. They cannot abide in the same place as the Holy Ghost who dwells within me.

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Please post this Rollo,
I know John Wesley but not Samuel and Charles.

Are you a Methodist?
Methodists only
unless someone gives you a pass.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
Are you a Methodist?
Methodists only
unless someone gives you a pass.

Does a Nazarene count?
I think so...it's an offshoot of Methodism.
Jesus gave me a pass.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Then why the sacrificial system n the O.T.?

It pointed forward as a type of what was to come.

GodsGrace said:
At times it sounds like you're saying that we could live sin-free while living on this earth.
At times, such as above, you state that we can walk from the FREEDOM OF THE POWER OF SIN, which is the bondage to satan, which we left at salvation.

WHICH IS IT?
The 1st is incorrect.
The 2nd is correct.

I mean the 1st when I mention the 2nd.

GodsGrace said:
Correct.
But does our walking away from the power of sin and being saved by it mean that we will NEVER SIN? Or does it mean we are not in bondage to satan with our sin nature?

I would only point out that the holy scripture teaches that we can walk in freedom from sin...that we do not have to continue in slavery to our old way of life. Even taking John 8:34 into account.

Now the following (in larger letters) may be indeed taken out of context; but it is a statement that I encourage you to receive in the context of what I am saying in this post:

Mat 19:12, For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Then why the sacrificial system n the O.T.?

1 John 1:10 would tell us that no one but Jesus could have walked sinless from conception to eternity...however I have already brought up verses that show that we can walk in freedom from the power of sin from the moment we repent and give our hearts to Christ.

What you post is rather confusing JBF.
At times it sounds like you're saying that we could live sin-free while living on this earth.

At times, such as above, you state that we can walk from the FREEDOM OF THE POWER OF SIN, which is the bondage to satan, which we left at salvation.

WHICH IS IT?
The 1st is incorrect.
The 2nd is correct.

Correct.
But does our walking away from the power of sin and being saved by it mean that we will NEVER SIN? Or does it mean we are not in bondage to satan with our sin nature?

Exactly. I once met a man who was a "compulsive gambler"--he lost his house, cars and finally his family due to his "addiction". One night, after drinking most of a bottle of whiskey, he was despondent and contemplating suicide--even though he knew it would be very wrong. He cried out to the Lord to help him (he had been raised in a Christian home) and he was saved that night. Interestingly, he said that he never thought that he would ever give up gambling because he had tried to do so many times. After the Lord saved him, he said that he suddenly had a distaste for both drinking and gambling (the sin of gambling is often accompanied by alcoholism). He had been set free from the power of sin in those two areas, but he understood that he was not sin-free. He longed for the day that his body of sin would be changed into an immortal body that was totally sin-free, when he joined his Lord Jesus in heaven.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Exactly. I once met a man who was a "compulsive gambler"--he lost his house, cars and finally his family due to his "addiction". One night, after drinking most of a bottle of whiskey, he was despondent and contemplating suicide--even though he knew it would be very wrong. He cried out to the Lord to help him (he had been raised in a Christian home) and he was saved that night. Interestingly, he said that he never thought that he would ever give up gambling because he had tried to do so many times. After the Lord saved him, he said that he suddenly had a distaste for both drinking and gambling (the sin of gambling is often accompanied by alcoholism). He had been set free from the power of sin in those two areas, but he understood that he was not sin-free. He longed for the day that his body of sin would be changed into an immortal body that was totally sin-free, when he joined his Lord Jesus in heaven.

Indeed, we do have the element of sin dwelling within us; and sometimes it is a battle to not walk according to it.

But I am saying that we can win that battle, every time that we are tempted (because the element of sin can be rendered dead, even powerless, in our lives).

If we fail, the scripture teaches that a righteous man falls seven times, but gets back up again.

But we can walk in freedom and victory; so that we might never fall again (once you start to get tired of the seemingly endless cycle of falling and getting back up again).

See 1 Corinthians 10:13 (really think about what it is saying); and Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10.

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Indeed, we do have the element of sin dwelling within us; and sometimes it is a battle to not walk according to it.

But I am saying that we can win that battle, every time that we are tempted.

If we fail, the scripture teaches that a righteous man falls seven times, but gets back up again.

But we can walk in freedom and victory; so that we might never fall again.

See 1 Corinthians 10:13 (really think about what it is saying); and Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10.

I think the key teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13 is that we don't HAVE to sin--that we can trust in the Lord to provide a way to escape the temptation to sin. BUT, we must take that way of escape. In a moment of weakness, a believer might surrender to the temptation. That appears to be why Jesus taught us to pray: "...lead us not into temptation" or, in modern English: "...don't let us yield to temptation." (Matthew 6:13) A Christian can "put on the full armor of God" to thwart the devil's plan to destroy our witness and our lives here on earth--but sometimes, the believer doesn't. Our enemy is always the same and he always uses the same techniques. He knows our weaknesses and exploits them.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Who here blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?

God only knows if that sin has been committed by anyone here.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
I think the key teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13 is that we don't HAVE to sin--that we can trust in the Lord to provide a way to escape the temptation to sin. BUT, we must take that way of escape. In a moment of weakness, a believer might surrender to the temptation. That appears to be why Jesus taught us to pray: "...lead us not into temptation" or, in modern English: "...don't let us yield to temptation." (Matthew 6:13) A Christian can "put on the full armor of God" to thwart the devil's plan to destroy our witness and our lives here on earth--but sometimes, the believer doesn't. Our enemy is always the same and he always uses the same techniques. He knows our weaknesses and exploits them.

I think also that Philippians 2:13 also means that as sanctified believers we don't want to sin...

So if we don't want to sin, and also don't have to sin, why then would any of us sin?

Because we don't have to sin regardless of the influence of the enemy in our lives.

Of course it is important to be on guard against the temptations of the enemy. Jesus said, Watch and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

Matthew 26:41, Mark 14:38.

Please explain this.

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