Please explain this.

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
I think also that Philippians 2:13 also means that as sanctified believers we don't want to sin...

So if we don't want to sin, and also don't have to sin, why then would any of us sin?

Because we are weak and mortal creatures and at the moment that we yield to temptation, we, like Eve and Adam before us, WANT to sin--even though we might immediately regret it. There is much to learn in the original Fall. Satan was working on Eve before she was even conscious of it--she lied (exaggerated) when she said that God said they could not even TOUCH the forbidden fruit. God had only said that they could not eat it. Once she lied (out of a bit of Satanically-inspired, self-importance?) Eve would have been putty in the devil's "hands". Adam, who was there with her, was likely supposed to protect her from the wiles of the devil. Instead, he too succumbed.

Because of the shame that the enemy heaps on us in the aftermath, we are miserable until we confess our sin to God and He forgives. David said in Psalm 32:3---> "When I refused to confess my sin, my body wasted away and I groaned all day long."

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
The prospect of eternal life vs. an eternity in hell ought to make the penitent to persevere in seeking the Lord for that second benefit spoken of in 2 Corinthians 1:15...in the meantime, I believe that Romans 4:11 would teach us that a person can be justified in Christ apart from the second benefit. The second benefit, I think, is mainly for those who have a conscience that they are afflicted by in a healthy manner. Those who truly cry out with Paul, Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death! can indeed capably be blessed with the sanctified life spoken of in Romans 8. Those who have been afflicted by the consciousness of sins can be relieved from that affliction, Hebrews 10:2, Hebrews 1:3.

Hey JBF,
Could you do me a favor, please? It would just save me a lot of time.
I also am trained in backing up my statements with scripture...but I feel like we both know them enough...so could you just say what you want to say instead of sending me to verses? I'll know if what you're saying is right or not.

IOW, you stated 2 Cor 1:15 the second benefit.
What is the second benefit? (Just tell me)
I think we all cry out wretched man that I am...
we all appreciate the Lord's sacrifice for us and our salvation.
Also, what do you mean by the sanctified life?

HOW are we relieved by our conscience?

IOW, just talk to me!
I'm trying hard to understand you.
I think you're a nice person.

That which is done in our own strength, even in the power of the flesh, is indeed filthy rags according to Isaiah 64:6.

That which is done in faith, however, is fine linen according to Revelation 19:8 (kjv).

It is the difference between my own righteousness, which is of the law; and His righteousness, which is of the Lord by faith. Philippians 3:9.

What do we do in our own strength?
Jesus said we can do nothing unless we abide in HIM.
Everything we do we do for God. Everything we do is in faith. (that are good deeds...no sin!)
How many times have I posted Colossians 3:23-24

Maybe we could go over Isaiah later on.

For now, let me say that no one that is saved is under the Law.
We live by love....
But we still have to follow the 10 commandments because Jesus said so.
But we are under grace...the Holy Spirit gives us the strength to follow the commandments with love and not by force as in the Mosaic Law, or the M. Covenant.

I can say that in the O.T. we had to earn our righteousness.
In the N.T. we are seen as righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ.
This does not mean that we stop doing everything good.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
The condition for receiving the Holy Spirit is to ask, seek, and knock (Luke 11:9-13).

There is an absolute promise (found in Acts 2:38-39) that is conditional...and if anyone fulfills that condition, they are absolutely promised the Holy Ghost and cannot have a "familiar demon".

Because He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Because Jesus dwells in me and is stronger than any demon, every last one of them has to flee. They cannot abide in the same place as the Holy Ghost who dwells within me.

Very mysterious.
I understand nothing of what you wrote.
Make believe I'm 10 years old and you have to explain the above.

Christianity is very simple and I fear you are making it very complicated.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
It pointed forward as a type of what was to come.

NO NO NO.
That is a cop out.
I need an answer.
WHY did the O.T. persons make sacrifices if the blood of bulls and goats DID NOT remove sin,,,,as you stated in your post.

Then what was the reason for making these sacrifices?
It was NOT to point us to Christ.
We say this but they did not know this...it's an after thought.

I mean the 1st when I mention the 2nd.

Another mystery. I just may have to stop writing to you.
You MUST pick between one of these two ideas:

1 At times it sounds like you're saying that we could live sin-free while living on this earth.

2. At times, such as above, you state that we can walk from the FREEDOM OF THE POWER OF SIN, which is the bondage to satan, which we left at salvation.

Well, which one is it?
It CANNOT be both since they do NOT reconcile.

I would only point out that the holy scripture teaches that we can walk in freedom from sin...that we do not have to continue in slavery to our old way of life. Even taking John 8:34 into account.

What does "freedom from sin" mean?

Now the following (in larger letters) may be indeed taken out of context; but it is a statement that I encourage you to receive in the context of what I am saying in this post:

Mat 19:12, For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

What exactly am I to receive IF YOU ARE NOT CLEAR ABOUT IT?

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Indeed, we do have the element of sin dwelling within us; and sometimes it is a battle to not walk according to it.

But I am saying that we can win that battle, every time that we are tempted (because the element of sin can be rendered dead, even powerless, in our lives).

If we fail, the scripture teaches that a righteous man falls seven times, but gets back up again.

But we can walk in freedom and victory; so that we might never fall again (once you start to get tired of the seemingly endless cycle of falling and getting back up again).

See 1 Corinthians 10:13 (really think about what it is saying); and Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10.

If what you say above is true..the bible does indeed contradict itself and it's no wonder many will not come to an irreconcilable God.

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
If what you say above is true..the bible does indeed contradict itself and it's no wonder many will not come to an irreconcilable God.

This is the statement of JBF's that is untrue: "But we can walk in freedom and victory; so that we might never fall again (once you start to get tired of the seemingly endless cycle of falling and getting back up again)."

We know that Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned when He walked the earth. No one else will ever be sin-free in this life. If that were true (that we can be sin-free in our mortal bodies) why do we need to be resurrected? If JBF's statement above is true, these old bodies should be good enough. But our mortal flesh always has an element of our sin nature (and thus death). Otherwise, why did Jesus come to be our sacrificial Lamb? If we can be sin-free after we believe in Him (and He always existed--the OT prophets spoke of Him and that He would one day come--"in the fulness of time") then why did we need Him to make atonement for us? It diminishes what He did, out of obedience to the Father, if we say that we can be sin-free by grace through faith. That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
This is the statement of JBF's that is untrue: "But we can walk in freedom and victory; so that we might never fall again (once you start to get tired of the seemingly endless cycle of falling and getting back up again)."

We know that Jesus is the ONLY one who never sinned when He walked the earth. No one else will ever be sin-free in this life. If that were true (that we can be sin-free in our mortal bodies) why do we need to be resurrected? If JBF's statement above is true, these old bodies should be good enough. But our mortal flesh always has an element of our sin nature (and thus death). Otherwise, why did Jesus come to be our sacrificial Lamb? If we can be sin-free after we believe in Him (and He always existed--the OT prophets spoke of Him and that He would one day come--"in the fulness of time") then why did we need Him to make atonement for us? It diminishes what He did, out of obedience to the Father, if we say that we can be sin-free by grace through faith. That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Very good points!

atpollard · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
So, on Total Depravity, I fall 1/2 and 1/2.

I believe that mankind is born in sin and cannot obey God or come to Him apart from the drawing effect of the Holy Spirit.

However, a man can be given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) so that he becomes even capable of obeying the Lord.

Thus, while I hold that Total Depravity is a reality, I do not hold that it is true across the board.

See 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The old things being the old lifestyle of sin, the new things being the new life of holiness that we will live as the result of having the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Both Calvinist and Arminians believe that.

Calvinists believe that only the “elect” (those God “foreknew”, “predestined”, “called”, “justified” and “glorified” [Rom 8:28-30]) are given a new heart, while the others are “vessels created for destruction” [Rom 9:19-24].

Wesleyan Arminians believe in something called “Prevenient Grace” (Preceding Grace) which is a special outpouring of grace given to all people that frees them from the Adamic curse and allows them the ability to choose or reject the Gospel of Christ.

All true Christians acknowledge that AFTER Justification we are given a new heart and made a new creature and died to our old self and the rest of the promises that the Bible has for believers in Christ. Calvinists and Arminianists disagree about the details about how man gets from being born sinful to believing, repenting, confessing and getting baptized. Both start born in sin and end born from above in Christ; the debate falls mostly between those two mile markers.

[except for Perseverance which tends to be based on what one thinks about who is holding on to whom.]

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 14, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
Are you a Methodist?
Methodists only
unless someone gives you a pass.

did you make it to the first lesson
It's called "Charles in Charge".

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

Lady Crosstalk said:
Because we are weak and mortal creatures and at the moment that we yield to temptation, we, like Eve and Adam before us, WANT to sin--even though we might immediately regret it. There is much to learn in the original Fall. Satan was working on Eve before she was even conscious of it--she lied (exaggerated) when she said that God said they could not even TOUCH the forbidden fruit. God had only said that they could not eat it. Once she lied (out of a bit of Satanically-inspired, self-importance?) Eve would have been putty in the devil's "hands". Adam, who was there with her, was likely supposed to protect her from the wiles of the devil. Instead, he too succumbed.

Because of the shame that the enemy heaps on us in the aftermath, we are miserable until we confess our sin to God and He forgives. David said in Psalm 32:3---> "When I refused to confess my sin, my body wasted away and I groaned all day long."

When we confess our sins to God and He forgives, we will begin to love Him much (Luke 7:36-50). Because of this, I believe that we will have the desire not to sin...i.e. we will not want to sin.

The fact that we, as sanctified believers do not want to sin and do not have to sin...seems to me to draw the conclusion that as sanctified believers we will not sin.

GodsGrace said:
Hey JBF,
Could you do me a favor, please? It would just save me a lot of time.
I also am trained in backing up my statements with scripture...but I feel like we both know them enough...so could you just say what you want to say instead of sending me to verses? I'll know if what you're saying is right or not.

For the most part, I am not going to forsake giving the scriptural support for my statements....because people are watching who don't know the holy scriptures; and also, there are those here who have even in the past few days called me a heretic and a liar. Therefore I feel that I need to back up my statements with scripture, in order that the sound doctrine that I bring may be accepted in spite of those accusations.

GodsGrace said:
IOW, you stated 2 Cor 1:15 the second benefit.
What is the second benefit? (Just tell me)

I thought you said you were Nazarene. The Nazarene Church teaches that the second benefit amounts to being sanctified wholly, as defined in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv). This is where I got it from.

GodsGrace said:
Also, what do you mean by the sanctified life?

HOW are we relieved by our conscience?

Once being purged from sins, the people would have had no more conscience of sins (Hebrews 10:2). That Jesus has purged our sins (where the blood of bulls and goats failed to do so) is evident from Hebrews 1:3.

The sanctified life is a life that is free from practical sinning. It is a life where you are walking in the repentance that God has granted to you; and do not commit in the practical sense the things that you did that were sinful before you became a believer. It indicates total and complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

GodsGrace said:
IOW, just talk to me!
I'm trying hard to understand you.
I think you're a nice person.

I'll do my best. But I am still going to attempt to back up my words with scripture. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask the Holy Spirit for illumination; because much of what I'm saying is from God's word and God's word requires illumination from the Spirit if we are going to understand it.

GodsGrace said:
NO NO NO.
That is a cop out.
I need an answer.
WHY did the O.T. persons make sacrifices if the blood of bulls and goats DID NOT remove sin,,,,as you stated in your post.

The answer that I have given you is the traditional answer.

GodsGrace said:
Then what was the reason for making these sacrifices?
It was NOT to point us to Christ.

Says who?

Indeed it was.

GodsGrace said:
You MUST pick between one of these two ideas:

1 At times it sounds like you're saying that we could live sin-free while living on this earth.

2. At times, such as above, you state that we can walk from the FREEDOM OF THE POWER OF SIN, which is the bondage to satan, which we left at salvation.

Well, which one is it?
It CANNOT be both since they do NOT reconcile.

Tell me, please, how it is that you think that these two things do not reconcile. To me, they are speaking of one and the same exact thing.

GodsGrace said:
What does "freedom from sin" mean?

It means that we do not have to live according to who we used to be. We are not bound so that we cannot do anything but sin. We are made capable of walking in consistent holiness and righteousness through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

GodsGrace said:
If what you say above is true..the bible does indeed contradict itself and it's no wonder many will not come to an irreconcilable God.

How do you figure?

Lady Crosstalk said:
If we can be sin-free after we believe in Him (and He always existed--the OT prophets spoke of Him and that He would one day come--"in the fulness of time") then why did we need Him to make atonement for us?

The atonement in part provides the Holy Spirit to come and dwell within us so that we can have victory over, and freedom from, the practical committing of sins. It also brings forgiveness over our past sins so that a holy God can come and dwell in a forgiven vessel. Because a forgiven vessel is considered to be holy; and the Lord will not come to dwell in an unholy vessel.

Lady Crosstalk said:
It diminishes what He did, out of obedience to the Father, if we say that we can be sin-free by grace through faith.

How do you figure?

To me, the Bible teaches in specific verses that we can walk in freedom from the power of sin.

Lady Crosstalk said:
That is NOT what the Bible teaches.

It is what the Bible teaches.

Do I need to quote the verses again? Perhaps right now I will only reference them.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.

To be quoted below in post #1693 (Please explain this.).

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

atpollard said:
Both Calvinist and Arminians believe that.

Calvinists believe that only the “elect” (those God “foreknew”, “predestined”, “called”, “justified” and “glorified” [Rom 8:28-30]) are given a new heart, while the others are “vessels created for destruction” [Rom 9:19-24].

Wesleyan Arminians believe in something called “Prevenient Grace” (Preceding Grace) which is a special outpouring of grace given to all people that frees them from the Adamic curse and allows them the ability to choose or reject the Gospel of Christ.

All true Christians acknowledge that AFTER Justification we are given a new heart and made a new creature and died to our old self and the rest of the promises that the Bible has for believers in Christ. Calvinists and Arminianists disagree about the details about how man gets from being born sinful to believing, repenting, confessing and getting baptized. Both start born in sin and end born from above in Christ; the debate falls mostly between those two mile markers.

[except for Perseverance which tends to be based on what one thinks about who is holding on to whom.]

atpollard said:
All true Christians acknowledge that AFTER Justification we are given a new heart and made a new creature and died to our old self and the rest of the promises that the Bible has for believers in Christ.

If that is the case, then Calvinists are not true Christians. For I have often found them contending that we are given a new heart and made into a new creature before we are saved by grace through faith; even before we repent and give our hearts to Christ. And the problem I find with this is that it implies that a person can be saved apart from repentance and faith in Jesus.

justbyfaith · Jul 14, 2019

[1Th 5:23-24 KJV] 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

[Heb 10:14 KJV] 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[1Jo 3:7 KJV] 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[1Jo 3:3 KJV] 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

[1Jo 2:6 KJV] 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[Jde 1:24 KJV] 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

[2Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[1Jo 2:10 KJV] 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

atpollard · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
If that is the case, then Calvinists are not true Christians. For I have often found them contending that we are given a new heart and made into a new creature before we are saved by grace through faith; even before we repent and give our hearts to Christ. And the problem I find with this is that it implies that a person can be saved apart from repentance and faith in Jesus.

I worded that poorly. All Christians admit the new heart to be our condition after we are saved and we disagree on exactly when that event happens. When are we saved? Is is when you confess, believe, are baptized, receive the Spirit, or something else? Even scripture sends conflicting signals ... our sins were forgiven at the cross (2000 years ago) and all who believe are not judged (present tense) and those who endure to the end will be saved (future tense) ... so some difference of human opinion has to be expected.

My pastor comes from a Moravian background and they have a motto in the Moravian Church that I find useful:

“In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity.”

Is knowing the exact moment when God chooses to transform a heart of stone to a heart of flesh really an “essential” that all Christians must agree on? I see it as a non-essential that you non-Calvinist have the liberty to be completely wrong about.

Which is why I try to maintain charity (good will) towards all with whom I disagree about non-essentials.

Now if someone attacks the deity of Christ, then the gloves come off and things get ugly ... because who Christ is and what he did falls under “essentials”.

atpollard · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
For I have often found them contending that we are given a new heart and made into a new creature before we are saved by grace through faith; even before we repent and give our hearts to Christ.

That is a correct statement about Calvinism.
What does scripture say about the old heart?

“intent of man's heart is evil from his youth“ [Genesis 8:21]

“THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;” [Romans 3:11]

“dead in your trespasses and sins”
“according to the prince of the power of the air”
“sons of disobedience”
“in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind”
“by nature children of wrath” [Ephesians 2:1-3]

“a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them” [1 Corinthians 2:14]

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4] [the gospel] “is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving”

Is this the heart that is capable of choosing Christ?
Or will God need to make the first move ...

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

[Ephesians 2:4-5 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

atpollard · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
And the problem I find with this is that it implies that a person can be saved apart from repentance and faith in Jesus.

This is NOT what Calvinism teaches. Rather ... “He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” [Philippians 1:6]

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
did you make it to the first lesson
It's called "Charles in Charge".

Yes. I made it to the first lesson.
What did it teach me?

GodsGrace · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
When we confess our sins to God and He forgives, we will begin to love Him much (Luke 7:36-50). Because of this, I believe that we will have the desire not to sin...i.e. we will not want to sin.

The fact that we, as sanctified believers do not want to sin and do not have to sin...seems to me to draw the conclusion that as sanctified believers we will not sin.

For the most part, I am not going to forsake giving the scriptural support for my statements....because people are watching who don't know the holy scriptures; and also, there are those here who have even in the past few days called me a heretic and a liar. Therefore I feel that I need to back up my statements with scripture, in order that the sound doctrine that I bring may be accepted in spite of those accusations.

I thought you said you were Nazarene. The Nazarene Church teaches that the second benefit amounts to being sanctified wholly, as defined in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv). This is where I got it from.

Once being purged from sins, the people would have had no more conscience of sins (Hebrews 10:2). That Jesus has purged our sins (where the blood of bulls and goats failed to do so) is evident from Hebrews 1:3.

The sanctified life is a life that is free from practical sinning. It is a life where you are walking in the repentance that God has granted to you; and do not commit in the practical sense the things that you did that were sinful before you became a believer. It indicates total and complete surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

I'll do my best. But I am still going to attempt to back up my words with scripture. If you don't understand what I'm saying, ask the Holy Spirit for illumination; because much of what I'm saying is from God's word and God's word requires illumination from the Spirit if we are going to understand it.

The answer that I have given you is the traditional answer.

Says who?

Indeed it was.

Tell me, please, how it is that you think that these two things do not reconcile. To me, they are speaking of one and the same exact thing.

It means that we do not have to live according to who we used to be. We are not bound so that we cannot do anything but sin. We are made capable of walking in consistent holiness and righteousness through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

How do you figure?

The atonement in part provides the Holy Spirit to come and dwell within us so that we can have victory over, and freedom from, the practical committing of sins. It also brings forgiveness over our past sins so that a holy God can come and dwell in a forgiven vessel. Because a forgiven vessel is considered to be holy; and the Lord will not come to dwell in an unholy vessel.

How do you figure?

To me, the Bible teaches in specific verses that we can walk in freedom from the power of sin.

It is what the Bible teaches.

Do I need to quote the verses again? Perhaps right now I will only reference them.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.

To be quoted below in post #1693 (Please explain this.).

Yes. I see the problem here,,,and there is one,
but it'll have to wait till tomorrow morning.
1 a.m. here.

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 14, 2019

GodsGrace said:
Yes. I made it to the first lesson.
What did it teach me?

If you don't know that Charles Wesley was in charge, then you know nothing.

atpollard · Jul 14, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
If you don't know that Charles Wesley was in charge, then you know nothing.

What’s wrong with Charles Wesley? Perhaps you could point out the issue from some of his writings (6000 Hymns):

Arise, My Soul, Arise

1.⁠Arise, my soul, arise!
Shake off thy guilty fears;
The bleeding Sacrifice
In my behalf appears;
Before the throne my Surety stands,
Before the throne my Surety stands;
My name is written on his hands.

2.⁠He ever lives above,
For me to intercede,
His all redeeming love,
His precious blood to plead;
His blood atoned for all our race,
And sprinkled now the throne of grace.

3.⁠My God is reconciled ;
His pardoning voice I hear;
He owns me for his child;
I can no longer fear;
With confidence I now draw nigh,
With confidence I now draw nigh,
And Father, Abba, Father, cry. Amen.

Hymn For Christmas Day (1739)

HARK how all the Welkin rings
"Glory to the Kings of Kings,
"Peace on Earth, and Mercy mild,
"GOD and Sinners reconcil'd!

Joyful all ye Nations rise,
Join the Triumph of the Skies,
Universal Nature say
"CHRIST the LORD is born to Day!

CHRIST, by highest Heav'n ador'd,
CHRIST, the Everlasting Lord,
Late in Time behold him come,
Offspring of a Virgin's Womb.

Veil'd in Flesh, the Godhead see,
Hail th' Incarnate Deity!
Pleas'd as Man with Men t' appear
JESUS, our Immanuel here!

Hail the Heav'nly Prince of Peace!
Hail the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and Life to All he brings,
Ris'n with Healing in his Wings.

Mild he lays his Glory by,
Born—that Man no more may die,
Born—to raise the Sons of Earth,
Born—to give them Second Birth.

Come, Desire of Nations, come,
Fix in Us thy humble Home,
Rise, the Woman's Conqu'ring Seed,
Bruise in Us the Serpent's Head.

Now display thy saving Pow'r,
Ruin'd Nature now restore,
Now in Mystic Union join
Thine to Ours, and Ours to Thine.

Adam's Likeness, LORD, efface,
Stamp thy Image in its Place,
Second Adam from above,
Reinstate us in thy Love.

Let us Thee, tho' lost, regain,
Thee, the Life, the Inner Man:
O! to All Thyself impart,
Form'd in each Believing Heart.

[Now I disagree with the Wesley brothers opinions on prevenient grace, but I have no axe to grind against them as fellow workers in the vineyard of God.]

Lady Crosstalk · Jul 14, 2019

justbyfaith said:
When we confess our sins to God and He forgives, we will begin to love Him much (Luke 7:36-50). Because of this, I believe that we will have the desire not to sin...i.e. we will not want to sin.

Look carefully at the account of the Fall. Adam and Eve walked in the Garden with God for who knows how long before the Fall--they would have had the closest of "personal relationships" with Him. Eve knew the consequences of disobedience and that they were dire. But she WANTED to sin. Read it starting at 3:6 (Satan, acting through the snake had previously set her up by planting doubt about what God had said and His character), "The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her." The anatomy of the Fall is plain to see. She WANTED to disobey even though she had been warned. Later, Cain, like his mother WANTED to disobey God, even though he had been warned. Like Adam and Eve, we start off "blameless" and innocent but, in this world of sin and death, we soon learn the way of sin. "As in Adam all die, so, in Christ, shall all be made alive."

The fact that we, as sanctified believers do not want to sin and do not have to sin...seems to me to draw the conclusion that as sanctified believers we will not sin.

No. The problem is that we will not be completely sanctified until we go to heaven to be with the Lord. Look at this example: I love my husband dearly--we have been married for several decades. I know him very well and trust him more than I trust any other mortal human in the world. My desire is that I would never offend him with my behavior and I trust that he has the same desire. BUT, occasionally, the vestiges of sin that dwells in my flesh, sometimes tangles with the vestiges of sin that still dwells in his flesh. When we have had a quarrel, we are both miserable until we make up and then we go forward. Do you really expect anyone to believe that you never sin? If you are married, ask your spouse if it is true that you never sin. If you insist that you never sin, 1 John 1:8 calls you a liar.

For the most part, I am not going to forsake giving the scriptural support for my statements....because people are watching who don't know the holy scriptures; and also, there are those here who have even in the past few days called me a heretic and a liar.

Denying that you ever sin, makes you a liar (1 John 1:8). And denying the exclusivity of Jesus' walk of complete and utter holiness, makes you a heretic, because it attacks one of the fundamental truths of our faith. Even little children know that Jesus never sinned (a Lamb without blemish). The great preacher, D.L. Moody was challenged on the idea of sin remaining in one who is filled with the Holy Spirit. He was asked how he could sin if he indeed had the filling of the Holy Spirit. His simple answer was something to the effect that indeed he had been indwelt at the beginning of his faith journey and had been filled many times since then, but, he said, "I leak."

Please explain this.

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