Please explain this.

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Lady Crosstalk

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Looks to me like we agree on everything except eternal security.
Even on what Perfect means and the Rich Young Ruler.
Interesting that we don't agree on that one doctrine.

However, I must say that your belief in eternal security is palatable to me...OSAS is not.
That is why I always defend eternal security and not OSAS. :) I have seen too many "OSAS believers" who don't actually seem like believers at all. Interestingly, the Apostle John makes the case for eternal security in the closing passages of 1 John. 1 John 5:13--->"I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (emphasis mine). The whole of 1 John gives the criteria for judging whether one has or does not have eternal life. There are at least 20 evidence points. :)
 

GodsGrace

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That is why I always defend eternal security and not OSAS. :) I have seen too many "OSAS believers" who don't actually seem like believers at all. Interestingly, the Apostle John makes the case for eternal security in the closing passages of 1 John. 1 John 5:13--->"I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (emphasis mine). The whole of 1 John gives the criteria for judging whether one has or does not have eternal life. There are at least 20 evidence points. :)
OK.
But what IS the evidence point?
It's in your verse.
 

GodsGrace

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Did you want me to list all twenty?
NO!
Just the one in your verse.
I'll do it.

Here's your verse:

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

IOW, We may know that we have eternal life IF we believe in the name of the Son.

John is writing to those who BELIEVE in the name of the Son.

We need to stop and find out what believe means.
I'll bet you know....

Just to make it simple,,,it means to follow Jesus, to learn from Him...to do as He did.

IF we do those things,,,we are assured of our eternal security.

What if we don't?
If you answer that we're still saved, then you DO believe in OSAS.
Think about it.
Later.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

IOW, We may know that we have eternal life IF we believe in the name of the Son.

John is writing to those who BELIEVE in the name of the Son.

Just to make it simple,,,[believe] means to follow Jesus, to learn from Him...to do as He did.
The Greek word, pistus or one of its cognates is used for "believe" in the NT. There was a different Greek word used for "to know" which was a mere intellectual grasp of a concept. (I forget what it is at the moment.) In any case, pistus implied a heartfelt desire to follow the object of faith (a deity of some sort) and to do as he/she did. Those who don't follow Christ in their behavior (i.e. they are grossly sinful) should be worried that they are not in the faith at all.

IF we do those things,,,we are assured of our eternal security.

What if we don't?
If you answer that we're still saved, then you DO believe in OSAS.
Think about it.
Later.

I don't think that a person who could tread on the Blood of Jesus in that way, is saved at all and never was. 1 John gives us that criteria because John notes that those who "went out" were not believers in the first place.
 
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GodsGrace

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The Greek word, pistus or one of its cognates is used for "believe" in the NT. There was a different Greek word used for "to know" which was a mere intellectual grasp of a concept. (I forget what it is at the moment.) In any case, pistus implied a heartfelt desire to follow the object of faith (a deity of some sort) and to do as he/she did. Those who don't follow Christ in their behavior (i.e. they are grossly sinful) should be worried that they are not in the faith at all.



I don't think that a person who could tread on the Blood of Jesus in that way, is saved at all and never was. 1 John gives us that criteria because John notes that those who "went out" were not believers in the first place.
John was speaking about gnostics.
They had already invaded the church...he wrote his epistles late...maybe about 80 or 85 AD. The word you might be thinking of, in fact, is gnosis...to know.

You'll find that unbelief has the connotation of disobedience in the word...so we can know that to believe means to obey, as your description above states. To believe, to be a disciple, to do as we are taught.

You can believe that the person was never saved to begin with..
I just don't see how we could go against scripture to come to this conclusion.
Jesus Himself said that some are saved temporarily and then they fall away.
Luke 8:13 HE said they BELIEVED, which is necessary for salvation,,,,TEMPORARILY. And THEN,,they fell away...FROM WHAT?

Hebrews has 10:39 stating that "we are not those that shrink back to destruction",,,
doesn't this mean that some had shrunken back to destruction?

What about 2 Timothy 4:7 ? Paul said that he had KEPT THE FAITH.
 
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Enoch111

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Why would I read the Westminster Confession instead of Calvin's Institutes?
Because the Institutes are one man's writings, whereas the Westminster Confession of Faith is the joint declaration of all the English-Speaking Reformed Churches (which are also Calvinistic). Presbyterian churches (at least the conservative one) expect their members to accept this Confession of Faith wholeheartedly. The London Baptist Confession of Faith is almost a replica of the Westminster Confession. And there are quite a few Reformed Baptist churches around.

There are many sound doctrines in the Westminster Confession but the teachings on TULIP are also found there, and TULIP is a false gospel. Since the Reformers were trying to get away from the false Gospel of the Catholics it is rather disappointing that they too adopted a false gospel.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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I'm going to post part of what you linked....
I'd like @Grailhunter @Lady Crosstalk and @justbyfaith
to read this. I've been trying to make the point to JBF that not everything can be learned from JUST reading the bible...this will how him what I mean because I'm not sure he knows.

This will be referring to the yoke of Jesus.
Mathew 11:28

Constantine's ☧ symbol

In 313 emperor Constantine published the Edict of Milan, which allowed people to worship whatever deity they wanted without loss of property rights, and that caused people to confuse Yahwism with a religion and Yahweh and thus Christ with just another god. One particular brand of Yahwism spoke of "Savior", "Lord of Lords" and "Son of God," which mimicked Rome's imperial religion, as well as of immortality and resurrection, which were also phrases used by the Roman cult of Sol Invictus (the Invincible Sun), to which Constantine was devoted. In 310, Constantine had famously marched upon the armies of Maxentius, after he had seen a vision of a symbol coming out of the sun. According to some accounts, the symbol was accompanied by the message, "In Hoc Signo Vinces", meaning "with this symbol you will conquer", and which obviously catered to the sensibilities of a devout follower of Sol Invictus. The symbol was ☧, the interlaced Greek letters Χ (chi) and Ρ (rho).

This symbol would become one of the most recognized Christian symbols, but it wasn't back then. In Constantine's days, this symbol was used by Greek pagan scholars, who wrote it in the margins of texts to mark a passage they found striking (the ancient equivalent of a highlighter marker). ΧΡ is short for χρηστος (chrestos), meaning pleasant or profitable, fit for use. In the New Testament this same word is used to describe usefulness of things or people towards other people. It's also employed to describe the quality of Christ's yoke: for my yoke is chrestos and my load is light (MATTHEW 11:30), which doesn't emphasize the easiness of following Jesus but rather its basis in practical usefulness. Paul appears to hint at the practice of marking useful passages in texts when he says, "Test all things and hold on to the good" (1 THESSALONIANS 5:21; albeit by using the adjective καλος).

source: The amazing name Nazarene: meaning and etymology


Of course, one of the first problems one runs into is that men (and women) are liars and they distort history to suit themselves--the victors get to write the history books. The original Mithraism from Persia, bore little resemblance to the mithraism practiced during the early centuries of the Christian era. There is a great deal of evidence that it was influenced by Christianity rather than the other way around. Mithraism as practiced by the Romans, was a way to avoid having to meet the moral demands of Christianity while, at the same time, supporting the cultural influence for the good, found in Christianity. Even unbelievers recognized that Christianity could be a way to stem the cultural chaos of the late Roman Empire. There is a story (not sure if it is true or not) of one of Constantine's government officials being questioned by Constantine about "what kind of people are these Christians?". When Constantine's official answered that they were good citizens, that they paid their taxes, took care of their families and generally behaved very well. It must have started Constantine thinking because, according to the story, soon after, he declared that his army would become Christian and he forced the entire army to be baptized as Christians (at sword-point).
 
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GodsGrace

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Because the Institutes are one man's writings, whereas the Westminster Confession of Faith is the joint declaration of all the English-Speaking Reformed Churches (which are also Calvinistic). Presbyterian churches (at least the conservative one) expect their members to accept this Confession of Faith wholeheartedly. The London Baptist Confession of Faith is almost a replica of the Westminster Confession. And there are quite a few Reformed Baptist churches around.

There are many sound doctrines in the Westminster Confession but the teachings on TULIP are also found there, and TULIP is a false gospel. Since the Reformers were trying to get away from the false Gospel of the Catholics it is rather disappointing that they too adopted a false gospel.
Right!
I never thought of your last sentence.
I have read some of the institutes....very little, but what I read there is just not the God that I know.

Even less of the Westminster Confession.
Will be doing that soon. I think that's pretty long too.
(like the Catechism of the Catholic church)
 

Grailhunter

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Of course, one of the first problems one runs into is that men (and women) are liars and they distort history to suit themselves--the victors get to write the history books. The original Mithraism from Persia, bore little resemblance to the mithraism practiced during the early centuries of the Christian era. There is a great deal of evidence that it was influenced by Christianity rather than the other way around. Mithraism as practiced by the Romans, was a way to avoid having to meet the moral demands of Christianity while, at the same time, supporting the cultural influence for the good found in Christianity. Even unbelievers recognized that Christianity could be a way to stem the cultural chaos of the late Roman Empire. There is a story (not sure if it is true or not) of one of Constantine's government officials being questioned by Constantine about "what kind of people are these Christians?". When Constantine's official answered that they were good citizens, that they paid their taxes, took care of their families and generally behaved very well, it must have started Constantine thinking because, according to the story, soon after, he declared that his army would become Christian and he forced the entire army to be baptized as Christians (at sword-point).

A lot of the story of Constantine and the battle, and all of the sequences as the Empire began to turn Christian, cannot be proven. But with the stories we have in hand we can look at documented history and see that the drastic turn of events in Christianity favor could have happened the way the stories say they happened. The more you know about the Romans and the Roman Empire, the more you know how unlikely this would have happened. Nothing, no event, so drastically changed the Empire. The Romans were not perfect...wow...for sure, but neither were God's champions in the OT.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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John was speaking about gnostics.
They had already invaded the church...he wrote his epistles late...maybe about 80 or 85 AD. The word you might be thinking of, in fact, is gnosis...to know.
That would be one word but I am vaguely thinking that there is another word. I should look it up.

You'll find that unbelief has the connotation of disobedience in the word...so we can know that to believe means to obey, as your description above states. To believe, to be a disciple, to do as we are taught.
Yes.

You can believe that the person was never saved to begin with..
I just don't see how we could go against scripture to come to this conclusion.
Jesus Himself said that some are saved temporarily and then they fall away.
Luke 8:13 HE said they BELIEVED, which is necessary for salvation,,,,TEMPORARILY. And THEN,,they fell away...FROM WHAT?
I would say that those who fell away probably were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Remember that the Apostle Paul encountered some "believers" in Ephesus (see Acts chapter 19) who had only received water baptism for repentance from John the Baptist (or one of his disciples). When Paul laid hands on them, they received the Holy Spirit. (Before that, they hadn't even known that there was a Holy Spirit to receive.) It seems that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary to reach Eternal Security. I believe that I had it on an occasion separate from my initial conversion (it was probably a few weeks after). I think this is the "completion" of faith spoken of in the NT. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on His disciples after He was resurrected. He said, at that time, "Receive the Holy Spirit." I think it fell on the Church generally (recorded in Acts 2) at Pentecost.


Hebrews has 10:39 stating that "we are not those that shrink back to destruction",,,
doesn't this mean that some had shrunken back to destruction?
Yes, most likely. They did not persevere to the completion of their faith. It has nothing to do with works, though.

What about 2 Timothy 4:7 ? Paul said that he had KEPT THE FAITH.
Probably that he was secure in the knowledge that he had presented the gospel--the true faith--properly.:)
 
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GodsGrace

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That would be one word but I am vaguely thinking that there is another word. I should look it up.

Yes.

I would say that those who fell away probably were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Remember that the Apostle Paul encountered some "believers" in Ephesus (see Acts chapter 19) who had only received water baptism for repentance from John the Baptist (or one of his disciples). When Paul laid hands on them, they received the Holy Spirit. (Before that, they hadn't even known that there was a Holy Spirit to receive.) It seems that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary to reach Eternal Security. I believe that I had it on an occasion separate from my initial conversion (it was probably a few weeks after). I think this is the "completion" of faith spoken of in the NT. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on His disciples after He was resurrected. He said, at that time, "Receive the Holy Spirit." I think it fell on the Church generally in Acts 2 at Pentecost.


Yes, most likely. They did not persevere to the completion of their faith. It has nothing to do with works, though.

Probably that he was secure in the knowledge that he had presented the gospel--the true faith--properly.:)
Could we talk about what it means to receive the Holy Spirit?
I don't speak in tongues, although I know some that do.
When I came to know God, it was like lightening...but it never became more than that in the sense that I felt a second "baptism".

IOW, when one becomes born again and is born from above...
what more could there be?
To me speaking in tongues is a gift (in case we get into it)...NOT proof of reception of the Holy Spirit.

I think every born again believer is indwelt...
YOU do not apprently...I'm referring to this difference above.
If you care to address it.
 

JohnPaul

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Women to men....
since they started.
And I remember them wanting to be men BEFORE we now have this problem of men that are very effeminate. I mean the young guys.

I remember when men looked like this:

I don’t like all this gay stuff, homosexuality is a sin, yet I see a lot of churches with rainbow flags, how can they accept that and preach the word of God?
 

GodsGrace

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I don’t like all this gay stuff, homosexuality is a sin, yet I see a lot of churches with rainbow flags, how can they accept that and preach the word of God?
It fills up the pews, doesn't it?
It's not easy to proclaim the true gospel...
some can't take the truth...so they make it say what they want it to say.

The N.T. does teach us that we will accept what our ears want to hear and that the gospel would be watered down as the end approaches.
Matthew 24:11-13
Colossians 1:23
2 Peter 2:1-3
2 Timothy 4:3

I do want to say that there are persons that are non-practicing homosexuals that love the Lord and live for Him. We should not make of all the hay one bundle.
 

JohnPaul

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It fills up the pews, doesn't it?
It's not easy to proclaim the true gospel...
some can't take the truth...so they make it say what they want it to say.

The N.T. does teach us that we will accept what our ears want to hear and that the gospel would be watered down as the end approaches.
Matthew 24:11-13
Colossians 1:23
2 Peter 2:1-3
2 Timothy 4:3

I do want to say that there are persons that are non-practicing homosexuals that love the Lord and live for Him. We should not make of all the hay one bunch.
Yes, and the ones that refrain from homosexual activity and pray for help and forgiveness there is an exception. Homosexuality is a mental disorder is it not?
 
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Grailhunter

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That would be one word but I am vaguely thinking that there is another word. I should look it up.

Yes.

I would say that those who fell away probably were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Remember that the Apostle Paul encountered some "believers" in Ephesus (see Acts chapter 19) who had only received water baptism for repentance from John the Baptist (or one of his disciples). When Paul laid hands on them, they received the Holy Spirit. (Before that, they hadn't even known that there was a Holy Spirit to receive.) It seems that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary to reach Eternal Security. I believe that I had it on an occasion separate from my initial conversion (it was probably a few weeks after). I think this is the "completion" of faith spoken of in the NT. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on His disciples after He was resurrected. He said, at that time, "Receive the Holy Spirit." I think it fell on the Church generally in Acts 2 at Pentecost.


Yes, most likely. They did not persevere to the completion of their faith. It has nothing to do with works, though.

Probably that he was secure in the knowledge that he had presented the gospel--the true faith--properly.:)

Ladies, I would like to interject a thought here....We can discuss Christianity here with years of study to back us up...but I want to remind you of the people that Christ and the Apostles were talking to. No New Testament Bible, odds are good that Paul's intellectual details went over the heads of most of the Christians at the time. The urgency of the ministry was to save as many as possible. A very simple message would be the only way that could happen. I believe Christ gave a certain about of grace to this new message and those that heard it, if not he would have been working against Himself. The discussion from our time period about who was in and who was out and exactly what they were thinking is difficult to discern. The story of those that fell away could be a lot like that of the prodigal son. Just as today, the seeds fall on different soil...from there it is between them and God....and it may take a while. I do not write this as a correction but as something to think about.
 
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GodsGrace

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Yes, and the ones that refrain from homosexual activity and pray for help and forgiveness there is an exception. Homosexuality is a mental disorder is it not?
We don't really know anymore JP.
It used to be considered a mental disorder back in the 50's and 60's...not sure when it changed to what it has become TODAY...
which seems to be a gender phenomenon.
What do I mean by this?
It does seem that some may actually choose this life-style.
It seems that children the age of 8 and 10 are mixed up as to their gender
because of all the publicity and TV shows that show this is OK.
I think we're going through a very confused period, and I fear it will only get worse.

What do you think?