The 4 Pivotal Subjects in Scripture

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APAK

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I believe one of the major obstacles that has caused division and continues to cause division within Christendom is not in the identification of the four areas that constitute the four major and dominating subjects in scripture. It is what and who they are, in relation to us, and then to each one of them, to each other. These four pivotal subjects are of course:


1. God/Elohim/Adonai/ LORD/the Almighty One, ‘I am existing,’ ‘I will be what I will be,’ etc., with the personal name of YHWH or Yahweh

2. Father of his people, and his Son, Father of spirits etc.

3. Son of God, Lamb of God, with the Greek name of Jesus or in Hebrew, Yahshua and even Joshua, and as the Messiah or Christ

4. Holy Spirit, Spirit or Spirit of God…etc.

Notice, that all denominations align themselves to their own meaning and understanding of the 4 subjects. Once this agreed upon and sanctioned belief is placed in writing, as an article of faith or creed or in some other document, all other major truths in scripture is then biased toward and drawn from this denominational or sect core doctrine and perspective. It is now ‘their own’ 4 subjects in scripture, as if they now own it and must protect it.

If it’s not 100% correct, not 100% scriptural and not 100% sanctioned by the Spirit, it then becomes a pillar of truth for men, a product of their own imaginations and their destiny. They become their 4 subjects in scripture.

It’s so vital then we get it right the first time and not go inventing new versions regarding these 4 subjects.

Now from before Christ, during the time of Christ and immediately afterwards, the key to getting it right, is what does scripture say of all four of these subjects listed above. It is not what necessarily someone else said about them and their significance and how they relate to each other say 50 years, 100 years or 400 years, or many more years later. Although this information can be useful.

I believe it is critical that we first always return and dig into scripture with the guidance of the Spirit to assist in understanding.

Secondly, we must know the context of scripture for understanding it. What was the context, the words said before and afterwards? What other scripture(s) supports this or that scripture regarding the 4 subjects. What was the culture, the language(s), their common sayings, their living conditions and who governed them, their friends and enemies etc. The context can be immediate and general. The context can be just drawn from the Hebrews, or just from the Israelites or just from the apostles, or just Christ’s words, or from all of them, collectively.

Without doing all this, we can and have easily succumb to the whims and imaginations of men and their own perspective of the 4 subjects listed above, very quickly. They can and have even become the official secular doctrine, if enough people believe in it and/or with sufficient or overwhelming political power of a few, with a dictator in power.

I will stop here and maybe add more later…??

//

Not to single someone out as the catalyst for this thread, however, what got me going on this subject, AGAIN, was the recent post and my exchange with @Enoch111 . He presented what he considered a false teaching by the JWs in their interpretation of thei 3 of the 4 subjects listed above using two verses of scripture they (JWs) presented.

Really, thanks Enoch for awakening me to this subject again, as if it really became dormant.


Blessings


APAK
 

Episkopos

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It's important to understand that no one gets more kudos from God for correctly identifying the exact way God does things...or how He is "put together" in Himself. This is more of a curiosity thing ABOUT God. If we could send a spacecraft or mount a telescope to investigate these things scientifically...we would. Fortunately God is not reachable by carnal means....so men will continue to speculate, thinking certain theories (or theory) are actually salvific....foolishness. Dividing over the theory of these things is just silly and shows a lack of taking God's commandments seriously.

I would have a different list as follows.

1. God is love, but He is also a righteous judge with no favourites. Fear Him!
2. Humility is key if you want to live before God...in this life or in the hereafter.
3. Faith in God is not the same as belief about Him. Watch and pray.
4. Always be honest to do what is right in His sight. God cannot justify a willful dishonesty.

Proverbs 22:4
4 By humility and the fear of the Lord
Are riches and honor and life.


<><
 
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APAK

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I do understand your post. However, the list I put forth was meant to convey the foundation and 4 primitive key players in the Bible. I tried to avoid using the terms such as calling them 4 'persons,' or things, or forces, etc, for obvious reasons. I just called them 'subjects' as to try and stay neutral.

Before I would be concerned with your list, that is actually good, I want to settle and address these 4 subjects or key drivers that base our beliefs. As you know there are different models out there..... Uni..isms. Duo..isms. Tri...isms, Mono..isms One...whatever and however they are categorized. And I wanted to address all these at once, first. I would consider your list helpful in defining these 4 subjects and/or built upon these 4 subjects once described fully using scripture.

Thanks Epi..Bless your path

APAK
 

Enoch111

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It is what and who they are, in relation to us, and then to each one of them, to each other.
Everything about the Godhead is sufficiently revealed in the Bible to prevent any confusion. Some chose to disbelieve because they wish to apply human rationality to divine revelation which simply requires faith. Here is the simple truth:

God The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit
God The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit
God The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son
Yet these are not three Gods but one God.
 

101G

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Everything about the Godhead is sufficiently revealed in the Bible to prevent any confusion. Some chose to disbelieve because they wish to apply human rationality to divine revelation which simply requires faith. Here is the simple truth:

God The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit
God The Son is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit
God The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son
Yet these are not three Gods but one God.
IF THIS IS TRUE, is not the the person in John 1:3 who made all things is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 who made all things, yes or no?

PICJAG.
 

marks

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The 4 Pivotal Subjects in Scripture

Aka Another Trinity Debate?
 

APAK

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The 4 Pivotal Subjects in Scripture

Aka Another Trinity Debate?

Well I did not intent it to be that at all and I cannot stop folks from sharing their opinions. Some of them cannot help themselves. They do not care to share or discuss scripture without first unveiling their pet models that stops the discussion cold. How unfortunate. I guess once they do this I cannot resist telling them via scripture they are completely obtuse and wrong at times. And the thing is, nearly all of these types have no reply for me. They just reply again with a rendition of their model records, over and over again. It shows that they do not have any in depth or knowledge of scripture. If my only fault is to have this reaction then so be it. When I see an error I point it out. And if I error I stand corrected. That's the way it should work. Unfortunately many think they were born on the spiritual high road. Their minds at least are rigid, unable to see in front of their ingrained models.

This OP was meant for folks to step back from anything they were taught and any models they were taught. For them to discover or rediscover truth that they may have missed via the process I briefly outlined in the OP. What have they got to lose I say.

To be frank as you may well know already, there are not too many folks that love to read scripture for meaning and study, with others. Most here and in general in the circles of Christianity do not understand or have patience to understand context in scripture that can produce an interpretation that is drastically different without using context. And unfortunately the majority of 'Christians' are in the latter camp as they keep presenting their pet selective scripture, ignorant of it context. So how can one have a decent discussion on scripture with this type of prejudicial view of scripture by such an audience? Next to impossible.

There is hope marks, and I believe in it tremendously. It is just a matter of time and the work of the Spirit

Bless you,

APAK
 
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ScottA

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I believe one of the major obstacles that has caused division and continues to cause division within Christendom is not in the identification of the four areas that constitute the four major and dominating subjects in scripture. It is what and who they are, in relation to us, and then to each one of them, to each other. These four pivotal subjects are of course:


1. God/Elohim/Adonai/ LORD/the Almighty One, ‘I am existing,’ ‘I will be what I will be,’ etc., with the personal name of YHWH or Yahweh

2. Father of his people, and his Son, Father of spirits etc.

3. Son of God, Lamb of God, with the Greek name of Jesus or in Hebrew, Yahshua and even Joshua, and as the Messiah or Christ

4. Holy Spirit, Spirit or Spirit of God…etc.

Notice, that all denominations align themselves to their own meaning and understanding of the 4 subjects. Once this agreed upon and sanctioned belief is placed in writing, as an article of faith or creed or in some other document, all other major truths in scripture is then biased toward and drawn from this denominational or sect core doctrine and perspective. It is now ‘their own’ 4 subjects in scripture, as if they now own it and must protect it.

If it’s not 100% correct, not 100% scriptural and not 100% sanctioned by the Spirit, it then becomes a pillar of truth for men, a product of their own imaginations and their destiny. They become their 4 subjects in scripture.

It’s so vital then we get it right the first time and not go inventing new versions regarding these 4 subjects.

Now from before Christ, during the time of Christ and immediately afterwards, the key to getting it right, is what does scripture say of all four of these subjects listed above. It is not what necessarily someone else said about them and their significance and how they relate to each other say 50 years, 100 years or 400 years, or many more years later. Although this information can be useful.

I believe it is critical that we first always return and dig into scripture with the guidance of the Spirit to assist in understanding.

Secondly, we must know the context of scripture for understanding it. What was the context, the words said before and afterwards? What other scripture(s) supports this or that scripture regarding the 4 subjects. What was the culture, the language(s), their common sayings, their living conditions and who governed them, their friends and enemies etc. The context can be immediate and general. The context can be just drawn from the Hebrews, or just from the Israelites or just from the apostles, or just Christ’s words, or from all of them, collectively.

Without doing all this, we can and have easily succumb to the whims and imaginations of men and their own perspective of the 4 subjects listed above, very quickly. They can and have even become the official secular doctrine, if enough people believe in it and/or with sufficient or overwhelming political power of a few, with a dictator in power.

I will stop here and maybe add more later…??

//

Not to single someone out as the catalyst for this thread, however, what got me going on this subject, AGAIN, was the recent post and my exchange with @Enoch111 . He presented what he considered a false teaching by the JWs in their interpretation of thei 3 of the 4 subjects listed above using two verses of scripture they (JWs) presented.

Really, thanks Enoch for awakening me to this subject again, as if it really became dormant.


Blessings


APAK
It is good and helpful to discuss our differences, but I would suggest that those four subjects (or whatever 4) are made up of what Paul referred to as "the elementary principles of Christ." Elementary, meaning only to be dwelt upon for a time before "pressing on." Certainly, after all this time, this foundation should not now still be a stumbling block...and yet it is.

Now, that is not to say that we do not still have a need to stand upon and to teach the elementary principles. Indeed we should. But, along with my suggestion and reminder of where we are and where we should be, I must say that the report card on the gentile Christians is every bit as bad as Israel at the time of Christ, whom He scorned with woe as blind leaders of the blind.

Will no one press on? I find that amazing.

And yet "pressing on" has its "principles" also. "In spirit and in truth" does not leave the slightest bit of wiggle room for imagination, speculation, conjecture, human logic, and the great variety of nut cases we have witnessed. If we are actually going to "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness", it would seem that the only alternative is to turn inward. Which sadly, explains Jesus' warning, saying "if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Therefore, because we all enter in and proceed in our own time, I recommend limiting interaction with others in the same way one limits activity in water: Swim together and fellowship together, but do not negotiate beyond ones own spiritual place of maturity, where speculations and conjecture only make matters worse, causing divisions. It is in the "negotiating" that we fail to love one another.
 
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Enoch111

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IF THIS IS TRUE, is not the the person in John 1:3 who made all things is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 who made all things, yes or no?
God the Son is the primary Person who created things.

So let's look at Isaiah 44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself...

Who is the Redeemer? Is He not the one who shed His blood for our redemption? And is He not the Lord Jesus Christ? And is not also God and "the LORD"? So here is the confirmation that Isa 44:24 is about the Son.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)
 

APAK

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@ScottA WELL SAID...!!

You do present your understanding of the topic in a different way with several key points, and your recommendations. And it does dovetail in what I attempted to convey....good job.

I wish folks could read your post over and over until they get it and what I said....you must be inspired then brother.

I think though I will take a strict Sabbatical from here. All good! until then au revoir!


Bless you,

APAK
 
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APAK

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God the Son is the primary Person who created things.

So let's look at Isaiah 44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself...

Who is the Redeemer? Is He not the one who shed His blood for our redemption? And is He not the Lord Jesus Christ? And is not also God and "the LORD"? So here is the confirmation that Isa 44:24 is about the Son.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Enoch I wish you well....let me get back with on your post, maybe later that sooner this time.....then I expect you to show me your reasonable scriptural proof of your claim for your Isaiah scripture. Like explaining the context in your own words where you are 100% certain the subject of your scripture is the Son of God, and could not be anyone else. Then show me its immediate context as further support. I suspect that even the previous and post chapters, 43 and 45 can also support your claim if true.

Yes indeed the question is,who is the real redeemer? Is the one that carries the name, the redeemer or the one that gave the name?

Bless you and family,

APAK