Predestination...barn-yard simple!

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jonnycool

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Jordan.Col 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.National distinctions have nothing to do with the gospel. No circumcised or uncircumcised.john.
 

Jordan

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And the idea of Predestination makes a mockery of God so if everybody is already predestined to Heaven and Hell why give us free will...
But He did not give us free will Christina. In fact, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18.It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.You are so incorrect.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance....Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Mark 2:17 - When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.You still want to say we don't have Free Will jonnycool?
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jonnycool

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You still want to say we don't have Free Will jonnycool?
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.You still want to say we have?Free will is a meaningless concept. Did you choose to be born or do you choose to die? ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21....They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.Nice to meet you man.john.
 

Jordan

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...You still want to say we don't have Free Will jonnycool?
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.You still want to say we have?Free will is a meaningless concept. Did you choose to be born or do you choose to die? ..."Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21....They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.Nice to meet you man.john.None of those verses says anything about no free will. But you can surely believe in the doctrine of men if you desire.I'll take God's Words anyday over men.
 

jonnycool

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Ok Jordan.
Actually yes you where do you think God fore knew you from???
Hello Christina.If I understand you correctly - There was never a moment when I was not in God's mind. He has loved me from eternity - God knows all things from everlasting to everlasting.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.This verse is misunderstood.Did God know before the creation of the world who would go to heaven and who would go to hell? If God isn't willing that any go to hell why does He create those He knows are going there? Why create hell at all if He isn't willing any go there?Is there a power God is bound to? DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"Since He does as He pleases then why does something He doesn't pleases happen?Jesus did not die for every man that ever lived, 1 Sam 3:14 proves this. Why do Christians say He did?If Jesus died for the sins of every man that ever lived why do some go to hell? Is it a sin not to submit? Didn't Jesus die for our sins?What do you think?john.
 

Christina

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Please do not talk around the question I know the scriptures I am asking you a question Where did he fore know us from ? And please dont generlize. He says he knew us before. Before what from where?
 

Jordan

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Ok Jordan.(Christina;62081)
Actually yes you where do you think God fore knew you from???
Hello Christina.If I understand you correctly - There was never a moment when I was not in God's mind. He has loved me from eternity - God knows all things from everlasting to everlasting.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.This verse is misunderstood.Did God know before the creation of the world who would go to heaven and who would go to hell? If God isn't willing that any go to hell why does He create those He knows are going there? Why create hell at all if He isn't willing any go there?Is there a power God is bound to? DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"Since He does as He pleases then why does something He doesn't pleases happen?Jesus did not die for every man that ever lived, 1 Sam 3:14 proves this. Why do Christians say He did?If Jesus died for the sins of every man that ever lived why do some go to hell? Is it a sin not to submit? Didn't Jesus die for our sins?What do you think?john.John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.I Timothy 4:10 - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.Need I say more?
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jonnycool

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Christina.
Please do not talk around the question I know the scriptures I am asking you a question Where did he fore know us from ? And please dont generlize. He says he knew us before. Before what from where?
I'm sorry if you think I did not answer you but my answer can only be as I gave, God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting.
He says he knew us before. Before what from where?
Where does it say 'he knew us before'?Jordan.If Jesus was the Saviour of all men why are all men not saved? Jesus is the Saviour of all types of men but not all men are saved.If Jesus is the Saviour then by that very definition He saves. Being Saviour means to save it does not mean to give one the oppotunity to save oneself if one is willing.What is it? The Good Shepherd loses sheep?john.
 

jonnycool

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John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.The 'world' does not mean everyman that ever lived. As I said, 1 Sam 3:14 proves a limited atonement, it proves Jesus did not die for everyman that ever lived so the 'world' does not mean that.In fact, the world hasn't a pray. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.For God so loved the world that He cut Israel off to claim me.Jesus told the Jews, Matt 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "So 'world' does not mean everyman that ever lived. It excludes Israel the shadow and it excludes the Church, the true Israel. Rom 11:12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!john.
 

Christina

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Christina.I'm sorry if you think I did not answer you but my answer can only be as I gave, God knows everything from everlasting to everlasting.Where does it say 'he knew us before'?Jordan.If Jesus was the Saviour of all men why are all men not saved? Jesus is the Saviour of all types of men but not all men are saved.If Jesus is the Saviour then by that very definition He saves. Being Saviour means to save it does not mean to give one the oppotunity to save oneself if one is willing.What is it? The Good Shepherd loses sheep?john.
thats what fore knew means Fore =before he knew us before .. So my question was before what and from where and though I appreciate the answer it isnt an answer ...God is saying he fore(before) knew us
 

Jordan

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...Jordan.If Jesus was the Saviour of all men why are all men not saved? Jesus is the Saviour of all types of men but not all men are saved.If Jesus is the Saviour then by that very definition He saves. Being Saviour means to save it does not mean to give one the oppotunity to save oneself if one is willing.What is it? The Good Shepherd loses sheep?
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

Christina

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thats what fore knew means Fore =before he knew us before .. So my question was before what and from where and though I appreciate the answer it isnt an answer ...God is saying he fore(before) knew us
I'll help you out here jonnyEphesians 1:4 now what do you think this means
 

jonnycool

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I see!
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Foreknowledge means to have knowledge of things to be. Before they happen Christina. I'd go further and say it's a knowing of us, the chosen, in an intimate way.
...and from where...
Eternity is the only answer. Nothing is new to Him. He foreknew everything that is ever going to be to the end of eternity and there is no end.How am I doing? If this is still falling short chuck me a line and tell me what's on your mind concerning this please.John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.Then He isn't the Saviour of all men is He Jordan?John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.john.
 

Christina

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Ephesians 1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:How can this be ? unless he knew us before this World
 

Jordan

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...John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.Then He isn't the Saviour of all men is He Jordan?John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.john.
He opened salvation to ALL human people, past, present and future. The only person he didn't is a fallen angel.
 

jonnycool

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Hello Jordan.
He opened salvation to ALL human people, past, present and future.
1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "Limited atonement is explicitly taught in scripture.Salvation is not open to all but salvation belongs to those who believe. RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...Not all men hear.PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.All those who do not hear the word of God go to hell. No other option is held out in the scriptures.Not all men hear.Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " `though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'john.
 

Christina

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God created all souls/spirit before we were born flesh this is where he fore knew us from This is also the state to which we will return (1 Cor 15:50- 15:52) So if he fore knew all of us in our soul state and we will return to our soul State. Why are we here in these flesh clay bodies ?
 

jonnycool

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What does it mean?Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- In Him you mean! Gotcha.Who chose? God the Father.Who's 'us'? The saints of verse 1 and by association all Christians.In Christ. The Second Adam who we are now decended from instead of decent through the sinner Adam thus leaving the corrupt nature behind and taking on the new nature of Christ, by imputation, perfect like God.In God's sight Christians are now holy and blameless in the judicial sense and we are being transformed into the likeness of Jesus. (Because He died for my sins I am blameless because He took my blame for me.)Hang on. Firstly, you're jumping ahead of me and second, I must go to sleep soon.
How can this be ? unless he knew us before this World
But He knows all things. You're not going to say we had a pre-existence are you Christina? john.
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Jordan

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Hello Jordan.(Jordan;62096)
He opened salvation to ALL human people, past, present and future. The only person he didn't is a fallen angel.
1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "Limited atonement is explicitly taught in scripture.Salvation is not open to all but salvation belongs to those who believe. RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...Not all men hear.PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.All those who do not hear the word of God go to hell. No other option is held out in the scriptures.Not all men hear.Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " `though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'john.Ever heard of Free Will. It's ones choice. And you are making God a liar.