The Stunning Implications Of Matthew 25:31:46

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marks

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Yes, although I would say that unless they actually got somehow in their bus, putting the new engine in it just proved to be a waste of time, LoL.

The Lord wants us to get somewhere, and that somewhere is bearing good fruit/ producing good works. If we sit on our duffs thinking we are someone just because we have a bus with a good engine in it yet can't drive and never get anywhere, we are like the huge tree that never bears fruit for the Lord, which needless to say is a real bummer for Him.

But I enjoy your analogy ; )
Well, I'll continue to proclaim that our works do not save us in any way shape or form. If they could, then God would have let it be that way.

If you say "saving-faith works", I agree. If you say "faith-works save", I heartily disagree. Salvation is by grace through faith, and it is by faith in Jesus that we have access to the grace in which we stand.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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if you want to drill into it, I'll need to go slowly.

That would be the understatement of the day, my friend, LoL. :) There's enough there to fill about 15 threads.

I should have seen it coming since you were mentioning "flood gates" and what not, but I think we'd better leave that for another day... or another month and three quarters... If Enoch sees that post he may stretch you out over the course of the next week on this thread alone.

Anyway, I can see there's a whole bunch I would contend with, but let's save it for another day. I wouldn't be fair to Scott if I entertained discussion on all that and didn't allow his spiritualized interpretations to be discussed.
 

Hidden In Him

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Well, I'll continue to proclaim that our works do not save us in any way shape or form. If they could, then God would have let it be that way.

If you say "saving-faith works", I agree. If you say "faith-works save", I heartily disagree. Salvation is by grace through faith, and it is by faith in Jesus that we have access to the grace in which we stand.

Much love!

Not a problem. That's why I wanted to discuss it. <thumbs up!>
 

Enoch111

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If what Scott A. says is true, those on the earth would need to be told because no one can see a spirit.
According to Scott, you just need to spiritualize everything gratuitously, and it will mean that you are spiritual. But when you take Scripture in its plain literal sense, you are carnal! Amazing. I am wondering now how he plans to deal with this: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk 24:39)
 
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Mal'ak

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So it's just a tickle my ears discussion. Fine. If you want to leave God and everything spiritual out of your discussion, I will indeed butt out.

But if you think there is anything unspiritual to discuss on Matthew 25:31-46...you are dead wrong. Which is not off topic to say so...but very much on topic.

I do not agree with Hidden about all you need to do is believe, but spiritual is also literal. Just because something is a physical event, does not mean it is flesh. When God led the Hebrews through the desert as a pillar of fire, it was a spiritual event, but literally happened. When satan came down to tempt Jesus, it was a spiritual event but literally and physically happened.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming". Everyone on Earth will literally see Jesus come, most will mourn because they know they have been doing evil under the anti-Christ.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

"Lamb stood on the mount Sion", now the spiritual is the "Lamb", which is spiritually interrupted as Jesus since he is the Lamb of God that took away our sins. The "stood on the mount Sion" is literal, when Jesus returns he will stand on the mountain in Israel in the presence of all the world and "they shall see the Son of Man coming" again as it said in Matthew 24.
 

Hidden In Him

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@ScottA: Go ahead and respond to Enoch's posts if you like. The focus of the thread is pretty much played out now anyway.

Blessings in Christ, and I appreciate your posting just the same.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Ok, so if the believing Jews are being protected and all the believers have been raptured, who does the dragon go to war against?

I think that the Antichrist will have trouble holding his "kingdom". Those who belong to Satan are always vying with each other for power. Revelation indicates that the "Kings of the East" will come against the forces of Antichrist. Satan's kingdoms always ultimately fail because they are inevitably divided against themselves. The Lord said so. "If Satan is divided against Satan, his kingdom will not stand." In contrast, the Kingdom of God will last forever.

And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

The Jewish Christians will be at great risk but God will preserve them. Just as He protected Jewish believers from the Romans who massacred the people of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. After the Jews rose up against Roman rule yet again, the Romans had a grim determination to put an end to Jewish insurrections (they didn't but that is another tale). The Roman General Titus was assigned the task of laying siege to Jerusalem to attempt to destroy the Zealots (a political faction who constantly waged guerilla warfare against the Romans). Side note: It is believed that Judas may have possibly been a Zealot--which may explain some of the reason why he betrayed Jesus. The kingdom the Zealots sought was physical/political, not spiritual.

Anyway, back to our tale. Titus was laying siege to Jerusalem but then he was unexpectedly called back to Rome by his father, the Emperor Vespasian. It gave the Jewish Christians (who believed that this might be the time that Jesus predicted as the time of the End) to make their escape to Pella. Interestingly, Titus had given explicit instructions NOT to touch the Temple as his troops put down the rebellious Jews. But his sub-commanders apparently had other ideas because they had heard that there was a LOT of gold in the Temple. They killed all of the Temple guards and then the priests. Then they took all of the golden implements. To get the very last of the gold, they set fire to the Temple so that the gold lining the inside of the walls would melt and flow downward. They even pried the foundations stones apart to get to the gold which had flowed into the cracks between the stones. That fulfilled Jesus' prophecy that "not one stone will be left upon another".
 

friend of

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I "believed" in Jesus from the time I was a child but I never heard the truth of the full gospel until I was an adult. I even spent time being a deist/agnostic in university, before becoming a true believer, after hearing the truth

Same boat w/ you

"A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The 'sheep' acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The 'goats' showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

I don't think the verses in OP are necessarily pertaining exclusively to the last times either. Once again we come back to Faith without works being dead useless and inauthentic when all's said and done. God's sheep are already actively doing good in the world today and sowing for the world to come. The verse can really apply to both time periods.
 

GodsGrace

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Ever contemplated the implications of the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats? I've been mulling this parable over this morning, and I'm seeing something that I've never heard taught before.

Some teach that this parable will be fulfilled after the Millennium, but the context seems to suggest it will actually take place after the second coming. As the text states, it occurs after He "comes in His glory... [to] sit upon His throne" (Matthew 25:31). Since this throne He is referring to will be where He sits after His coming (i.e. to earth), it must therefore be a reference to His earthly throne in Jerusalem, after He returns and sets up His earthly kingdom.

When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels are with Him, then will He sit upon the throne of His glory. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, and the goats on His left. (Matthew 25:31-33)

Here is where it gets interesting: If that is the case, then these sheep and goats are people who survived the tribulation period between when He returned and caught away His saints and when He later returned in power with the angels of His glory to destroy the Antichrist and his armies at the battle of Armageddon. These are people who were not raptured, yet will nevertheless inherit eternal life for having helped His people during the time of the tribulation.

Notice what He tells them:

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you who have been blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat. I thirsted, and you gave Me water to drink. I was a stranger, and you took Me in. I was naked, and you clothed Me. I was sick, and you visited Me. I was sin prison, and you came to Me."
Then the righteous will answer, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungering, and fed you? Or thirsting, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?" And having answered, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you did it unto Me." (Matthew 25:34-40)

Why would He distinguish between these righteous ones and those He refers to as His brethren? If they themselves were already His brethren, He would not have used this language. Rather, the language suggests they were merely those who helped His brethren in their time of need.

Now what are the implications of this? Notice how the wicked are judged on the basis of how they in turn did NOT help His brethren, and that in the end, He will assign them to eternal fire whereas He will reward the righteous with eternal life:

Then He will say also to those on His left, "Depart from Me, those who have been cursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the Devil and His angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat. I thirsted, and you gave Me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in. I was naked, and you did not clothe Me. I was sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me." Then they also will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?" Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say unto you, in as much as you did it not to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me." And these shall go away unto eternal punishment, but the righteous unto eternal life. (Matthew 25:41-46)

There is no mention made of these righteous ones "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ," nor are they judged righteous on this basis. They are judged righteous on their deeds alone. The likely reason here is because we today are saved by grace through faith. But faith in what? Faith in the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. But when this parable is finally fulfilled, He will now be sitting on His throne displaying Himself to all the earth that He is God, and the time for needing to have "faith" in this will be over. It will now be obvious, and faith in His divinity will no longer be in question.

Does it not demonstrate the importance God ultimately places on our actions where salvation is concerned?

This is the most controversial thread I believe I've ever posted, so I will simply open it for discussion. This will be the first time (and possibly the last, LoL) where I openly share something in public after first seeing it. Usually I sit in something for many months and study it through, but I will simply open the flood gates and see what happens for a change.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks to any who reply
Hidden In Him
On phone,,,,, can't write.
Marking for alerts.
Welcome to the club!
Jesus didnt know about being saved.
He knew about the kingdom....
Also ck out John 5:28
Also judgement on good deeds.
Tomorrow.
 

Jay Ross

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Some teach that this parable will be fulfilled after the Millennium, but the context seems to suggest it will actually take place after the second coming.

This one sentence seems to be the stumbling block in this thread.

When does the Lord return in all of His Glory with the Hosts of Heaven?

The three parable of Matthew_25 can be set at the following time markers, the first parable concerns an event at the beginning of the Millennium Age, the second parable describes Satan's plans to have his good and faithful servants oppressing the people of the earth during the first 1,000 years of the Millennium age while he is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit, to distract people from hearing God's salvation message, and the third parable describes the judgement of the nations at the GWTR judgement.

Ezekiel_34:17 indicates that there will be two judgements occurring at the end of time. The first judgement with separate first flock of people from the second flock of people. It will separate those who call Jesus/God, "Lord, Lord," from those who do not acknowledge that Jesus/God exists and go after their own heart's desires. The second Judgement is of the flock who call Jesus/God, "Lord, Lord," where proof of their true hearts desire are judged by their righteous works to further the Kingdom of God up to that point in time when they are standing before the Throne of grace.

You posted this thread around 8 hours ago while I was soundly asleep in my warm bed, and there have been over 70 responses before I had time to even read the OP to this thread.

Being able to nail down when the second advent of Christ will occur when He comes to Judge the peoples of the earth is the pin on which our understanding hangs on.

My understanding is that the parable of the Judgement of the Nations will occur at the time of Revelation_20:11-13 which will happen at the end of the Millennium Age. Both scriptural passages concern the judgement of the people and their "works," that reflect their heart's dependence on God and His Salvation work in our lives.

Shalom
 

ScottA

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I do not agree with Hidden about all you need to do is believe, but spiritual is also literal. Just because something is a physical event, does not mean it is flesh. When God led the Hebrews through the desert as a pillar of fire, it was a spiritual event, but literally happened. When satan came down to tempt Jesus, it was a spiritual event but literally and physically happened.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming". Everyone on Earth will literally see Jesus come, most will mourn because they know they have been doing evil under the anti-Christ.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

"Lamb stood on the mount Sion", now the spiritual is the "Lamb", which is spiritually interrupted as Jesus since he is the Lamb of God that took away our sins. The "stood on the mount Sion" is literal, when Jesus returns he will stand on the mountain in Israel in the presence of all the world and "they shall see the Son of Man coming" again as it said in Matthew 24.
You (and most of Christendom) are mixing what is made manifest with what those things represent in heavenly places. It is not what is made manifest that is literal--those are "created" things. On the contrary, it is those things of God in the heavenly, spiritual realm that are literal. This is what is meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth." One by one then:

1) The Hebrews and the pillar of fire were made manifest (created things). On the contrary, God who hid Himself, whom is spirit, is what is literal while those things are not.

2) Scripture does not indicate that Satan's interaction was spiritual or physical. Each of the terms used can be interpreted either way...but then again that would mean a shape-shifter serpent in the garden and a threesome or transfiguration when Jesus rebuked Peter referring to him as Satan, etc..

3) Matthew 24:30 does not say the Son of man would appear in the world, but rather in heaven. And when He comes, He does not come except to come for us, "that where He is, we might be also"...which is in the spiritual, heavenly realm of the Father. But indeed, all will see Him coming, but in the clouds...which is to say, in the spirit. And all will mourn who did not seeing Him "as He is."

4) Mount Sion, like Jerusalem, is not a place on earth--not literal, except as made manifest by revelations. Again, all the world is not literal as God is literal, but merely "created."
 

marks

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You (and most of Christendom) are mixing what is made manifest with what those things represent in heavenly places. It is not what is made manifest that is literal--those are "created" things. On the contrary, it is those things of God in the heavenly, spiritual realm that are literal. This is what is meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth." One by one then:

1) The Hebrews and the pillar of fire were made manifest (created things). On the contrary, God who hid Himself, whom is spirit, is what is literal while those things are not.

2) Scripture does not indicate that Satan's interaction was spiritual or physical. Each of the terms used can be interpreted either way...but then again that would mean a shape-shifter serpent in the garden and a threesome or transfiguration when Jesus rebuked Peter referring to him as Satan, etc..

3) Matthew 24:30 does not say the Son of man would appear in the world, but rather in heaven. And when He comes, He does not come except to come for us, "that where He is, we might be also"...which is in the spiritual, heavenly realm of the Father. But indeed, all will see Him coming, but in the clouds...which is to say, in the spirit. And all will mourn who did not seeing Him "as He is."

4) Mount Sion, like Jerusalem, is not a place on earth--not literal, except as made manifest by revelations. Again, all the world is not literal as God is literal, but merely "created."
Hi Scott,

Good post!

I see things a bit different, just the same, I think I understand your POV better for it.

I like the way you put that, . . . not literal as God is literal, but merely "created".

Much love!
 

ScottA

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In addition, Jesus said that the people on the earth would NOT have to be told that He has come--that it would be as obvious as lightning in the sky. If what Scott A. says is true, those on the earth would need to be told because no one can see a spirit.
No. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, all are changed", "old things have passed away, all things have been made new." This is the return of Christ.
 

friend of

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the first parable concerns an event at the beginning of the Millennium Age, the second parable describes Satan's plans to have his good and faithful servants oppressing the people of the earth during the first 1,000 years of the Millennium age while he is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit, to distract people from hearing God's salvation message

You got it wrong. Satan is imprisoned and his servants are pretty much screwed without him. The Millenial reign is a time of great joy and light for the world as Christ visibly reigns with His servants fulfilling His will on the earth. God's salvation message will be readily apparent at this time and all will hear of it. Jesus will be judging the nations from His throne.
 

Jay Ross

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You got it wrong. Satan is imprisoned and his servants are pretty much screwed without him. The Millenial reign is a time of great joy and light for the world as Christ visibly reigns with His servants fulfilling His will on the earth. God's salvation message will be readily apparent at this time and all will hear of it. Jesus will be judging the nations from His throne.

That can be your POV but can you dismiss what I have posted with such gay abandonment as you have done. It seems that you had already made up your mind as to the outcome that you want to happen.

Shalom
 

marks

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No. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, all are changed", "old things have passed away, all things have been made new." This is the return of Christ.

I could see this in "the corruptible must be clothed with incorruptability", in the sense that we put on the new man, created righteous and holy.

But what about the mortal putting on immortality? We still die in that way.

Much love!
 

marks

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No. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, all are changed", "old things have passed away, all things have been made new." This is the return of Christ.
What is the future of planet earth?

Curious . . .