Galatians 5

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atpollard

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So your position is that the Christian can do these works of the flesh (adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like) and still be unconditionally saved anyway??!?!?!
  • [Mat 5:22 NASB] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell
  • [Mat 5:28 NASB] 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
  • [Mat 5:32 NASB] 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for [the] reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Are you saying that you are never guilty of any sin on that list ... or that you will never enter heaven??!?!?!
 

atpollard

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Do you regard "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" as a law, or no?
Oooh Oooh, can I answer? :)

YES! Loving God with all your might (reader’s digest version) and loving your neighbor is the “heart and soul” of God’s MORAL LAW. It is commanded of us and we are expected to strive towards it. The Fruit of the Spirit is the Two Greatest Commandments being lived out in our lives through the power of God in us.

Like all of God’s Laws, we are not a slave to the Law of loving our neighbor. So when we fail to live up to the lesson of our “teacher”, we do not cease to be God’s children. Our RIGHTEOUSNESS (right standing) is found in Christ, not in our performance. That leaves us free to try and fail and try again, always motivated by Love for God and our desire to please him.

Love replaced fear as our motivation.
For those who believe, there is no judgement (John 3:18).
 

Hidden In Him

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Oooh Oooh, can I answer? :)

YES! Loving God with all your might (reader’s digest version) and loving your neighbor is the “heart and soul” of God’s MORAL LAW. It is commanded of us and we are expected to strive towards it. The Fruit of the Spirit is the Two Greatest Commandments being lived out in our lives through the power of God in us.

Very good! We have an answer, LoL! Yes, these two commandments were at the very heart of God's moral law, and both were contained in the Law of Moses.

Now, verses 1-11 tell us what laws were no longer binding, and verses 14-17 tell us what laws were still binding yes? I will proceed from there, but just to make sure we are agreed:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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  • [Mat 5:22 NASB] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell
  • [Mat 5:28 NASB] 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
  • [Mat 5:32 NASB] 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for [the] reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Are you saying that you are never guilty of any sin on that list ... or that you will never enter heaven??!?!?!
Christians sin, (1 John 1:7-10) so that is not the issue. The issue is can the Christian sin, remain impenitent of his sins, and still be saved anyway. The Bible does not teach salvation is UNconditional, it does not teach OSAS no matter what the Christian does.
 

Davy

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I am glad I do not believe what you have said. Those that do will never find any joy and peace with God. Jesus said those that come to Him He will not cast away. The gospel of grace is that God has done everything that is required for a person to be saved. All that is required of that person is that they place their faith in His work on the cross. Some where above it was said that Jesus only paid for past sins. That is not what the scriptures say. Where Paul said past sins is where God overlooked past sins of those that believe Him until the sins were paid for on the cross.

But if a person wishes to believe He only paid for past sins then they do not have a way to paid for their sins of today and the future and will live in constant fear of not being saved. I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind.

God (Jesus) showed His love for mankind on the cross where He paid for all the sins of the whole world but it will only pay for the ones that believe it.

Those who refuse to admit future sin and repent to Jesus like God's Word teaches don't have a real relationship with Him. They are instead playing religion, thinking up ways on their own to try and be 'religious'. In essence, those do what man has always done, think to justify himself.
 

Davy

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Read that letter from John again! He gives good and loving counsel for us when we see our brethren stumble... Pray for them! As I hope they pray for us!

Peace be with you!

You mean Apostle John was against what Apostle Paul said to Timothy about sinners in the Church?

1 Tim 5:20
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV


2 Tim 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
KJV


If those in Christ don't sin anymore, then how can they be rebuked for sin like the Scripture shows?
 

Philip James

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You mean Apostle John was against what Apostle Paul said to Timothy about sinners in the Church?

No, not at all..

I mean. 1 John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

Peace!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
 
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atpollard

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The issue is can the Christian sin, remain impenitent of his sins, and still be saved anyway.
The answer is "Of course not."
A Christian will not remain impenitent, and one who remains impenitent was not a Christian.

However, all Christians will Persevere until the end because ...
  • [Romans 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  • [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
  • [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
  • [Philippians 2:13 NASB] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
 

justbyfaith

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However, all Christians will Persevere until the end because ...
What of those who give lip service to their faith, saying to Jesus, Lord, Lord, but not doing the will of the Father in heaven?

I would say that these are Christians; but in name only.
 

justbyfaith

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I have sinned...yes. All have sinned. But the gospel is the liberation from sin...and a reconciliation with a holy God.

But you are speaking of a worldview that doesn't include Christ. You only see Him as your own holy Victim for your sins.

But the good news is that He is RISEN! And He gives us His resurrection life so we can walk in the same way that He did....so we can put on Christ and be as He is in this world.

But one needs to believe that Jesus is both alive AND available to be entered into. Not just in a religious way...but in a real way.

So you are always leaving Jesus out of your equation. You make it so that it's always about what you can do without God. A constant defeat. But you won't listen to what brings victory. You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think.

I can do ALL things through Christ who empowers me by His resurrection grace and life. Through Him I have the same victory He did.

1 John 2:14 "I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."

So then my testimony is true and biblical. You are trying to divorce Jesus Christ from the victory He died and was resurrected to bring His people so that they might overcome as He overcame.

Turn your heart and mind to the Lord.

Jesus is more than a holy victim...He is alive. Seek Him and live.

If I may add the following scripture:

Hos 14:2, Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Paul didn't say there to just 'believe on Jesus', and then you are not under the law.

Neither have I. It seems that what is misunderstood is that a child of God does not "believe ON Jesus'.

Jesus said,

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

If a person thinks they no longer sin in the flesh then that person will no longer feel the need for what Jesus did on the cross. This is the condition of those that think they no longer sin in the flesh.

Actually, in order to keep from sinning in the flesh we must needs abide in Him through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. So then, our behaviour of no longer sinning in the flesh is dependent on us believing in what He did for us on the Cross. John 15:1-8.

the doctrine of men that says we cannot sin anymore after having believed on Jesus

Any doctrine that teaches that we cannot sin anymore after having believed on Jesus, and thus there is no need to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness, is a doctrine from men.

It is no doctrine of men; it is rather a doctrine of God.

John 8:31-36, 1 John 3:5-9, Hebrews 10:10-14, 1 Peter 5:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.

It seems you think you no longer sin in the flesh and you will find some on this forum who make the same claim.

There is a certain level of holiness that a man can attain to in Christ. I would not call it sinless perfection; for there is still the element of indwelling sin as a factor, in one who has been delivered from the power of sin. Sin has been rendered dead within me; it no longer has any say over my behaviour (Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6).

YES! Loving God with all your might (reader’s digest version) and loving your neighbor is the “heart and soul” of God’s MORAL LAW.

As such, it identified us as sinners (Romans 3:20), it is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. It shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour. if you do not love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you have committed the greatest sin; for you have broken the greatest commandment.

It is possible through the Cross to obey this commandment. Grace endowed means that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart. If you love according to this love, you fulfill the law, and are set free from sin.

If you do not have Jesus in your heart, then this commandment shows you your sin and that you are still a man in need of a Saviour.

What does the life of a man look like who loves the Lord with all of his heart, mind, soul, and strength?

I think it would be a life that pleases God at every venue.

We can live that life in Christ.

Luke 1:37, Ephesians 3:19-20.
 

atpollard

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What of those who give lip service to their faith, saying to Jesus, Lord, Lord, but not doing the will of the Father in heaven?

I would say that these are Christians; but in name only.

I say ...
  • [John 10:27 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
  • [Matthew 7:21-23 NASB] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
  • [Isaiah 29:13 NLT] 13 And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.
... not His sheep and so, not saved!
 
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justbyfaith

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I say ...
  • [John 10:27 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
  • [Matthew 7:21-23 NASB] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
  • [Isaiah 29:13 NLT] 13 And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.
... not His sheep and so, not saved!
Amen.
 

justbyfaith

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Mat 5:27, Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30, And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now of course it is not very probable that I would ever be able to find the guts to cut off my hand or pluck out my eye as the result of it causing me to sin. And therefore this scripture is using hyperbole to tell us that we ought to take extreme action against the sin in our hearts and lives.

It is saying, basically, that if you cannot cut off your hand or pluck out your eye, do the next best thing, and don't sin in the fashion wherein this scripture would require you to do the former.

It is saying that it would be better to enter into life halt or maimed than to enter into hell fire with all your body parts intact.

So if you cannot help but to sin with your members, then by all means cut them off or pluck them out.

Most assuredly, the alternative of not sinning with your members is better; and also the more viable option.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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The answer is "Of course not."
A Christian will not remain impenitent, and one who remains impenitent was not a Christian.

However, all Christians will Persevere until the end because ...
  • [Romans 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  • [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
  • [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
  • [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
  • [Philippians 2:13 NASB] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
The Christian will not persevere if he does not conditionally repent of his sins. The Jews were once God's chosen yet because of their "impenitent heart" (Romans 2:5) they were cast off (Romans 11). Not one of the verses cited above says the Christian will persevere if he does not repent.

Revelation 3:1-5 the church at Sardis had become spiritually dead and told to repent or they would be blotted out of the book of life.

Revelation 2:1-5 if the church at Ephesus did not repent, then their candlestick (church at Ephesus) would be removed, God would no longer recognize them as His church.


The verses you cited above describes the group called Christian.....it is the group that is sealed, justified, sanctified, holy and without blame. Therefore anyone who becomes a Christian takes on these traits. These traits only belong to the group, NOT the individual apart from the group. So if a Christian will not repent of his sins, he will fall from the group and no longer possess these traits while the group remains saved. A Christian then must CONDITIONALLY remain in the group to possess these traits. There is no unconditional guarantee for one who becomes a Christian he will faithfully remain in the group and possess these traits, thus the NT is full of admonitions, warnings, heedings about remaining faithful else one will fall away.

Just a few verses (of dozens) that warn about falling away from the group, no longer possess the groups traits and become lost:

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hebrews 6:4-6 - For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,....and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 3:12-19 - Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Revelation 2:4-5 - Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. ….. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Romans 11:19-22 - Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
 
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Philip James

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Oooh Oooh, can I answer? :)

YES! Loving God with all your might (reader’s digest version) and loving your neighbor is the “heart and soul” of God’s MORAL LAW. It is commanded of us and we are expected to strive towards it. The Fruit of the Spirit is the Two Greatest Commandments being lived out in our lives through the power of God in us.

Like all of God’s Laws, we are not a slave to the Law of loving our neighbor. So when we fail to live up to the lesson of our “teacher”, we do not cease to be God’s children. Our RIGHTEOUSNESS (right standing) is found in Christ, not in our performance. That leaves us free to try and fail and try again, always motivated by Love for God and our desire to please him.

Love replaced fear as our motivation.
For those who believe, there is no judgement (John 3:18).

And what if you screw up and not do that?
Peace!
 

atpollard

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Just a few verses (of dozens) that warn about falling away from the group, no longer possess the groups traits and become lost:
The “Elect” will read the warnings and the Holy Spirit will give “ears to hear” so the warning becomes the MEANS that God uses to empower us to persevere. The “Reprobate” will not have “ears to hear” and ignore the warning; serving only to further convict them of their guilt ... the function of the Law.
 

atpollard

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And what if you screw up and not do that?
Peace!
[Matthew 5:19 NLT] 19 So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[1 John 2:1 NLT] 1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

[Acts 3:19 NLT] 19 Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.
 
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