The Stunning Implications Of Matthew 25:31:46

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ScottA

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According to Scott, you just need to spiritualize everything gratuitously, and it will mean that you are spiritual. But when you take Scripture in its plain literal sense, you are carnal! Amazing. I am wondering now how he plans to deal with this: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk 24:39)
No. You can't even say it right...

There is nothing "literal" about what is plain and carnal. God is literal.

And the scriptures, they "must be discerned spiritually." "Plain, literal"--what a joke! You give the demons cause to laugh at you.

As for Luke 24:39, God spoke the whole world into existence. Did you think that He could not or would not also make manifest His power over life and death, over both heaven and earth? But claiming that what was manifest in the flesh and in the world is true rather than what it is manifest of, is the opposite of what He has done. He lowered Himself that He might be raised up again...not remain or return to that lowly state. His strength is made perfect by this weakness, but it is God whom is spirit who is perfect.

You have it all backwards. He does not return in weakness, but in strength (in spirit--perfect).
 
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ScottA

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Hi Scott,

Good post!

I see things a bit different, just the same, I think I understand your POV better for it.

I like the way you put that, . . . not literal as God is literal, but merely "created".

Much love!
Indeed..."created in His image" is interpreted "in His likeness." But it is a mistake to think that it means "not an image" but rather some worldly definition of "physical, therefore literal." But here daily, people who call themselves Christian insist that what God has "created" is not an "image." Daily.

The demons have cause to laugh.
 

ScottA

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I could see this in "the corruptible must be clothed with incorruptability", in the sense that we put on the new man, created righteous and holy.

But what about the mortal putting on immortality? We still die in that way.

Much love!
Jesus explained it as a need to be born of water and also the spirit, and it is written, first the natural then the spirit. But what is sown is not that which is raised up.
 

ScottA

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What is the future of planet earth?

Curious . . .
The scriptures tell us that the earth and all the elements are dissolved with fervent heat. And yet, it is also written that the earth is forever...for there are new heavens and new earth.
 

marks

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Jesus explained it as a need to be born of water and also the spirit, and it is written, first the natural then the spirit. But what is sown is not that which is raised up.
OK . . . follow up . . .

It sounds as you are comingling rebirth in the Spirit with our physical death/spiritual resurrection (which is how you would call it, is that correct? As I would say our physical resurrection).

Am I making sense?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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This one sentence seems to be the stumbling block in this thread.

When does the Lord return in all of His Glory with the Hosts of Heaven?

The three parable of Matthew_25 can be set at the following time markers, the first parable concerns an event at the beginning of the Millennium Age, the second parable describes Satan's plans to have his good and faithful servants oppressing the people of the earth during the first 1,000 years of the Millennium age while he is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit, to distract people from hearing God's salvation message, and the third parable describes the judgement of the nations at the GWTR judgement.

Ezekiel_34:17 indicates that there will be two judgements occurring at the end of time. The first judgement with separate first flock of people from the second flock of people. It will separate those who call Jesus/God, "Lord, Lord," from those who do not acknowledge that Jesus/God exists and go after their own heart's desires. The second Judgement is of the flock who call Jesus/God, "Lord, Lord," where proof of their true hearts desire are judged by their righteous works to further the Kingdom of God up to that point in time when they are standing before the Throne of grace.

You posted this thread around 8 hours ago while I was soundly asleep in my warm bed, and there have been over 70 responses before I had time to even read the OP to this thread.

Being able to nail down when the second advent of Christ will occur when He comes to Judge the peoples of the earth is the pin on which our understanding hangs on.

My understanding is that the parable of the Judgement of the Nations will occur at the time of Revelation_20:11-13 which will happen at the end of the Millennium Age. Both scriptural passages concern the judgement of the people and their "works," that reflect their heart's dependence on God and His Salvation work in our lives.

Shalom

Greetings, Jay. Properly responding to all that would be nearly as involved as responding to marks' post on his eschatology, and way beyond what I would have time or energy for. But thanks for placing the parable in the context you believe it falls into. I will leave to those who wish to respond to answer it.

Blessings in Christ
 

marks

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The scriptures tell us that the earth and all the elements are dissolved with fervent heat. And yet, it is also written that the earth is forever...for there are new heavens and new earth.
And those being spirit, not dirt, is that right? Am I saying it right?

What will our experience of those heavens and earth be? I know, ridiculous question! But I'm thinking, will there be any material difference experientially between a "physical" new heavens and earth, and a "spiritual" new heavens and new earth?

And we'll have not the kind of flesh we have now, rather, a spiritual body suited to the environment, we'll be "at home" in our new heavens and new earth.

I'm still leaning towards this including a new "rock" to stand on, but hey, doesn't that lead to a good thought! There is truly One Rock to stand on!

But all that aside, Am I getting anything here?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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It's reported that in the great trib we go back to OT Law briefly. That's the last chance to prove we are willing to live our lives for Christ since the age of Grace ends around this time. Salvation via Faith alone is no longer at play.

Sorry I took till now to respond to this one, Taylor. It didn't seem to show when I was on last, so I went straight to Mal'ak's post.

This is something I've never heard before. Not sure what to make of it. What scriptures would they base the idea that we will return to OT law during the tribulation?
But Chris, he's talking to the sheep that he separated. His Sheep are his Brethren and family and children, are we not? LoL

Well that's what I always assumed, Lol, but when I stopped to examine it closely I realized he was making a distinction. My response now would be that they are two different groups, and that His exact wording was, "like a Shepherd separates the sheep from the goats," meaning He wasn't actually defining them as sheep but comparing them to those who were...

But I admit that's a rather fine line.
Right, hence the need to prove to Him our allegiance.

Agreed.
 

Jay Ross

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Greetings, Jay. Properly responding to all that would be nearly as involved as responding to marks' post on his eschatology, and way beyond what I would have time or energy for. But thanks for placing the parable in the context you believe it falls into. I will leave to those who wish to respond to answer it.

Blessings in Christ

Well the Pretrib-bers are the one who generally hold the view that the second coming of Christ is in our near future and that can of worms is even bigger than the POV I presented.

Shalom
 

ScottA

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And those being spirit, not dirt, is that right? Am I saying it right?

What will our experience of those heavens and earth be? I know, ridiculous question! But I'm thinking, will there be any material difference experientially between a "physical" new heavens and earth, and a "spiritual" new heavens and new earth?

And we'll have not the kind of flesh we have now, rather, a spiritual body suited to the environment, we'll be "at home" in our new heavens and new earth.

I'm still leaning towards this including a new "rock" to stand on, but hey, doesn't that lead to a good thought! There is truly One Rock to stand on!

But all that aside, Am I getting anything here?

Much love!
The new heavens and new earth are more and higher and perfect, just as God is perfect...which, yes, means spiritual. Which eye has not seen...but would certainly be all that we would consider good and more.
 
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friend of

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This is something I've never heard before. Not sure what to make of it. What scriptures would they base the idea that we will return to OT law during the tribulation?

I'll have to find the video I watched a while back.

But I admit that's a rather fine line.

Right but I do see the distinction you're making. Which is why I would also maintain that there would be a distinction between those who are saved through faith and those who are saved, in the GT, by the way they live their lives.

Regardless, even though we do have freedom in Christ, we should still live as Gods slaves here and now.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Indeed..."created in His image" is interpreted "in His likeness." But it is a mistake to think that it means "not an image" but rather some worldly definition of "physical, therefore literal." But here daily, people who call themselves Christian insist that what God has "created" is not an "image." Daily.

The demons have cause to laugh.

I hate to break it to you, Scott, but every bit of prophecy which has ever been fulfilled has been fulfilled quite literally. Why would we, at this late date, think that God would do anything other than literally fulfill what He has said that He will do? Where does the spiritualizing stop? You can explain everything away with that approach. Some of the gnostics thought that Jesus was just a "spiritual projection" from heaven--that anything "carnal" (that is physical) was evil. They also believed that only spirit was good--like God the Father, who is spirit. Are you gnostic? John the Apostle was already fighting the influence of the gnostics in 1 John 1:1.
 

friend of

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Actually HIH the video I sent you isn't that great. I will look into another one by that same author and try to pinpoint exactly where hes deriving his doctrine.
 
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ScottA

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I hate to break it to you, Scott, but every bit of prophecy which has ever been fulfilled has been fulfilled quite literally. Why would we, at this late date, think that God would do anything other than literally fulfill what He has said that He will do? Where does the spiritualizing stop? You can explain everything away with that approach. Some of the gnostics thought that Jesus was just a "spiritual projection" from heaven--that anything "carnal" (that is physical) was evil. They also believed that only spirit was good--like God the Father, who is spirit. Are you gnostic? John the Apostle was already fighting the influence of the gnostics in 1 John 1:1.
First of all...you are saying it wrong. God is literal, and all the world is merely "created."

As for every bit of things being physical (rather than literal...which is a contradiction in terms), that is a sad witness that after God has made everything manifest as a foreshadowing of things to come and sent His Son to show the Way of laying down our flesh that we may commit our spirit to the Father and actually "follow" Jesus, that you cannot even perceive that any have actually done so...so much so, that you do not even believe it is the Way that has been shown.

As for where the spiritualizing stops, it stops with God whom is spirit, and any who do not make it to the full...do not enter into the kingdom. Which is not to "explain everything away"...it is simply to explain everything as it literally and actually is, just as it is written.

As for the Gnostics, I wouldn't know. But if they believe that man, even the Son of Man was created a mere image--that is the truth from God from the very beginning. The error of men is to consider what God has called flesh and an image, to be what is literal...and what God is, which is spirit, to be something less. On the contrary...you explain away the very essence of God.

As for 1 John 1:1, why do you think that John's witness of Jesus coming in the flesh makes void His committing [only] His spirit to the Father and praying that we too should be as They are? That is only half of what Christ Himself preached. Him coming in the flesh is [only] Him being born of water. Are you purposing that He was not also born of the Spirit, or that we should not follow Him, since indeed, He has? And since He "lowered" Himself to come in the flesh, would you have Him lower Himself again to appease your apparent likeness of the flesh? Do you not see how you have it all backwards?
 
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Phoneman777

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Ever contemplated the implications of the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats? I've been mulling this parable over this morning, and I'm seeing something that I've never heard taught before.

Some teach that this parable will be fulfilled after the Millennium, but the context seems to suggest it will actually take place after the second coming. As the text states, it occurs after He "comes in His glory... [to] sit upon His throne" (Matthew 25:31). Since this throne He is referring to will be where He sits after His coming (i.e. to earth), it must therefore be a reference to His earthly throne in Jerusalem, after He returns and sets up His earthly kingdom.

When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels are with Him, then will He sit upon the throne of His glory. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, and the goats on His left. (Matthew 25:31-33)

Here is where it gets interesting: If that is the case, then these sheep and goats are people who survived the tribulation period between when He returned and caught away His saints and when He later returned in power with the angels of His glory to destroy the Antichrist and his armies at the battle of Armageddon. These are people who were not raptured, yet will nevertheless inherit eternal life for having helped His people during the time of the tribulation.

Notice what He tells them:

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you who have been blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat. I thirsted, and you gave Me water to drink. I was a stranger, and you took Me in. I was naked, and you clothed Me. I was sick, and you visited Me. I was sin prison, and you came to Me."
Then the righteous will answer, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungering, and fed you? Or thirsting, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?" And having answered, the King will say to them, "Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you did it unto Me." (Matthew 25:34-40)

Why would He distinguish between these righteous ones and those He refers to as His brethren? If they themselves were already His brethren, He would not have used this language. Rather, the language suggests they were merely those who helped His brethren in their time of need.

Now what are the implications of this? Notice how the wicked are judged on the basis of how they in turn did NOT help His brethren, and that in the end, He will assign them to eternal fire whereas He will reward the righteous with eternal life:

Then He will say also to those on His left, "Depart from Me, those who have been cursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the Devil and His angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat. I thirsted, and you gave Me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in. I was naked, and you did not clothe Me. I was sick and in prison, and you did not visit Me." Then they also will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?" Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say unto you, in as much as you did it not to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me." And these shall go away unto eternal punishment, but the righteous unto eternal life. (Matthew 25:41-46)

There is no mention made of these righteous ones "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ," nor are they judged righteous on this basis. They are judged righteous on their deeds alone. The likely reason here is because we today are saved by grace through faith. But faith in what? Faith in the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. But when this parable is finally fulfilled, He will now be sitting on His throne displaying Himself to all the earth that He is God, and the time for needing to have "faith" in this will be over. It will now be obvious, and faith in His divinity will no longer be in question.

Does it not demonstrate the importance God ultimately places on our actions where salvation is concerned?

This is the most controversial thread I believe I've ever posted, so I will simply open it for discussion. This will be the first time (and possibly the last, LoL) where I openly share something in public after first seeing it. Usually I sit in something for many months and study it through, but I will simply open the flood gates and see what happens for a change.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks to any who reply
Hidden In Him
Please consider that after the thousand years in which the righteous reigned in heaven with Jesus and judged the wicked which have lain dead since "the brightness of His coming" littering the Earth like so much human garbage, the celestial city is moved to this desolate Earth where the wicked shall be raised and stand outside the city looking in at the righteous who are inside the city - the sheep on the one side of the wall and the goats on the other. They all fall down, praise Jesus, and then fire comes down and devours the wicked.
 

Lady Crosstalk

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First of all...you are saying it wrong. God is literal, and all the world is merely "created."

As for every bit of things being physical (rather than literal...which is a contradiction in terms), that is a sad witness that after God has made everything manifest as a foreshadowing of things to come and sent His Son to show the Way of laying down our flesh that we may commit our spirit to the Father and actually "follow" Jesus, that you cannot even perceive that any have actually done so...so much so, that you do not even believe it is the Way that has been shown.

As for where the spiritualizing stops, it stops with God whom is spirit, and any who do not make it to the full...do not enter into the kingdom. Which is not to "explain everything away"...it is simply to explain everything as it literally and actually is, just as it is written.

As for the Gnostics, I wouldn't know. But if they believe that man, even the Son of Man was created a mere image--that is the truth from God from the very beginning. The error of men is to consider what God has called flesh and an image, to be what is literal...and what God is, which is spirit, to be something less. On the contrary...you explain away the very essence of God.

As for 1 John 1:1, why do you think that John's witness of Jesus coming in the flesh makes void His committing [only] His spirit to the Father and praying that we too should be as They are? That is only half of what Christ Himself preached. Him coming in the flesh is [only] Him being born of water. Are you purposing that He was not also born of the Spirit, or that we should not follow Him, since indeed, He has? And since He "lowered" Himself to come in the flesh, would you have Him lower Himself again to appease your apparent likeness of the flesh? Do you not see how you have it all backwards?


I can tell that you have written English because they are clearly English words that you used, but your post is as nonsensical as any I have ever seen on these forums. I am too tired at the moment to try to even begin to decipher what you have written. Perhaps you SHOULD read up on the various forms of gnosticism--I'm sure that you will probably find something to your liking.
 

Hidden In Him

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Please consider that after the thousand years in which the righteous reigned in heaven with Jesus and judged the wicked which have lain dead since "the brightness of His coming" littering the Earth like so much human garbage, the celestial city is moved to this desolate Earth where the wicked shall be raised and stand outside the city looking in at the righteous who are inside the city - the sheep on the one side of the wall and the goats on the other. They all fall down, praise Jesus, and then fire comes down and devours the wicked.

Ok. That presents a thousand-year gap between when He comes and when He separates the sheep from the goats, but I understand what you are saying. I'm just not sold on the interpretation that it is referring to the GWT judgment.

But thanks for the post, Phoneman.
 
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ScottA

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I can tell that you have written English because they are clearly English words that you used, but your post is as nonsensical as any I have ever seen on these forums. I am too tired at the moment to try to even begin to decipher what you have written. Perhaps you SHOULD read up on the various forms of gnosticism--I'm sure that you will probably find something to your liking.
Yes, complete foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:18

I wonder if Nicodemus was too tired when He first heard about being born again of the spirit of God.
 

charity

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Hello there, @Hidden In Him,

I have been reading through this thread, and would love to take part, but time will not allow at the moment. However, I just want to say how refreshing it has been to observe the manner in which participation is taking place. Head's joined together, for the most part, in consideration of the Word under discussion.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hello there, @Hidden In Him,

I have been reading through this thread, and would love to take part, but time will not allow at the moment. However, I just want to say how refreshing it has been to observe the manner in which participation is taking place. Head's joined together, for the most part, in consideration of the Word under discussion.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Well thank you, Charity. Eventually I had to confront ScottA a little over potentially derailing the thread, but that inevitably happens in all the threads on this forum if they are not policed. He was not the only one, so when I sensed things were about to get out of control and depart from the confines of what I was hoping to address, I just let it go. Something you just have to expect.

But yes. It's been a fairly respectful interaction throughout ; )