Believers need to understand the Truth

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justbyfaith

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Heads up! … Pastors have several different reasons for
NOT telling the sheep what they desperately need to hear.


The NT words “belief” and “faith” are very inadequate!
Because of what the whole of the NT teaches,
it is obvious that one word is completely insufficient
to describe what “belief” and “faith” really mean!
The NT clearly teaches us that simply believing and
having faith is NOT nearly enough to attain salvation.


We know that a mere intellectual belief in Jesus and
the gospel will NOT save anyone … but also, is merely
a deep heart-felt belief really enough to save anyone?


Initially

When believers first receive the Holy Spirit through
God’s free gift of mercy/grace, they receive everything:
reconciliation, justification, righteousness, (positional)
sanctification, holiness, salvation … everything!


But, after initially being born-again

Our free-will co-operation with the Holy Spirit is critically
important during our (continuing) sanctification … as He
tries to sanctify us unto holiness, “for without holiness
no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).


We read in the NT that believers are tested to prove
their faith is genuine. Our initial salvation is a free gift,
but we see a lot of warnings in the NT that IF our righteous
standing (i.e. salvation) is NOT maintained, it can be lost.


So, let’s not focus on our initial receiving of salvation;
instead let’s focus on the end of our salvation process!


JUSTIFICATION is about taking Jesus as SAVIOR.
SANCTIFICATION is about making Jesus LORD.
Have you been told that BOTH are required for salvation?


If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, Savior and LORD”.
If Jesus is LORD, then we need to love and obey Him.
Indeed, He said 4 times: “Those who love Me will
obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).

And, “Those who are My friends will
obey My commandments.” (John 15:14).

Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus,
who is NOT His friend, and who does NOT obey His commands?


Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!

Pastors are responsible for WARNING the sheep about sin!
They need to teach us, for example:
● “God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules …
is rejecting God” (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8)
● “It would be better if they had never known the way
to righteousness than to know it, and then reject
the command to live a holy life” (2 Peter 2:21)


Many NT verses teach each of the following spiritual truths
Believers prove true saving belief through obedience
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers faith must endure to the end of their lives
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must come through as victorious overcomers
.
It should be clear that sanctification is through a living faith in Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

A sanctified life is one that will very likely produce works.

However salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9 and context, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6).

The work of God called sanctification is produced in us not by self-effort, but by faith.

I just want to make that clear, in case it wasn't clear before (I've only read the OP so far).
 
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justbyfaith

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We are made righteous through (faith in) the obedience of one (Romans 5:19).

This righteousness is a free gift (Romans 5:15-18, esp. 17).
 

Enoch111

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What if we were to focus on the certainty of our salvation, and how that liberates us to live a godly life?
That's exactly what Satan hates -- the certainty of our salvation and the certainty of his damnation. So we find more and more threads about sin and evil and all the garbage which surrounds us, and less and less about the grace of God and the finished work of Christ. Some even believe that it is unfinished.
 
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Episkopos

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That's exactly what Satan hates -- the certainty of our salvation and the certainty of his damnation. So we find more and more threads about sin and evil and all the garbage which surrounds us, and less and less about the grace of God and the finished work of Christ. Some even believe that it is unfinished.


You need to understand what the issue is first.

When the good folks over at Ford motor company finish making a car and it rolls off the assembly line they can say with some measure of satisfaction..."it is finished."

But that doesn't mean the car is in someone's ownership yet.

A person has to buy it.

(now before knee-jerking and trying to erroneously correct me, do a bible study on buying in the NT...also in the OT)

So then a covenant has two parties. God has FIRST loved us. His part is complete...and we have access to His completed work. He has gotten the ball rolling...the car, in my example, has been manufactured. Now it's our turn to enter into that covenant and enter into the power of it in order that God's covenant would be manifested in us. It's time for us to show His love to the world. And yes, we will be judged on this.

It's time to get in the car and drive it (after paying the price for it of course).
 

Zachary

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Please understand that we need to ...
RECONCILE all of the verses on both sides of an issue.

Ok, have at it.
Re: the most critical OSAS and eternal security issue ...

True saving belief must include more than just belief.
It truth of it all just cannot be contained in ONE word.

The whole of the NT screams warnings that it must include:
enduring belief/faith/trust, obedience, no habitual sinning!

There's more to it, if someone is interested.
.
 

GodsGrace

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Heads up! … Pastors have several different reasons for
NOT telling the sheep what they desperately need to hear.


The NT words “belief” and “faith” are very inadequate!
Because of what the whole of the NT teaches,
it is obvious that one word is completely insufficient
to describe what “belief” and “faith” really mean!
The NT clearly teaches us that simply believing and
having faith is NOT nearly enough to attain salvation.


We know that a mere intellectual belief in Jesus and
the gospel will NOT save anyone … but also, is merely
a deep heart-felt belief really enough to save anyone?


Initially

When believers first receive the Holy Spirit through
God’s free gift of mercy/grace, they receive everything:
reconciliation, justification, righteousness, (positional)
sanctification, holiness, salvation … everything!


But, after initially being born-again

Our free-will co-operation with the Holy Spirit is critically
important during our (continuing) sanctification … as He
tries to sanctify us unto holiness, “for without holiness
no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).


We read in the NT that believers are tested to prove
their faith is genuine. Our initial salvation is a free gift,
but we see a lot of warnings in the NT that IF our righteous
standing (i.e. salvation) is NOT maintained, it can be lost.


So, let’s not focus on our initial receiving of salvation;
instead let’s focus on the end of our salvation process!


JUSTIFICATION is about taking Jesus as SAVIOR.
SANCTIFICATION is about making Jesus LORD.
Have you been told that BOTH are required for salvation?


If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, Savior and LORD”.
If Jesus is LORD, then we need to love and obey Him.
Indeed, He said 4 times: “Those who love Me will
obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).

And, “Those who are My friends will
obey My commandments.” (John 15:14).

Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus,
who is NOT His friend, and who does NOT obey His commands?


Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!

Pastors are responsible for WARNING the sheep about sin!
They need to teach us, for example:
● “God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules …
is rejecting God” (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8)
● “It would be better if they had never known the way
to righteousness than to know it, and then reject
the command to live a holy life” (2 Peter 2:21)


Many NT verses teach each of the following spiritual truths
Believers prove true saving belief through obedience
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers faith must endure to the end of their lives
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must come through as victorious overcomers
.
You're absolutely right.
And you're going to know get grief for saying that we have to obey God
and follow His ways and be a disciple of Jesus.

Those that want to obey are called legalists,
those that say obedience is not necessary believe they are the saved ones.
Everything today is upside down.
 

atpollard

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Re: the most critical OSAS and eternal security issue ...

True saving belief must include more than just belief.
It truth of it all just cannot be contained in ONE word.

The whole of the NT screams warnings that it must include:
enduring belief/faith/trust, obedience, no habitual sinning!

There's more to it, if someone is interested.
.
How does that “reconcile” all of God’s promises that you claim are abrogated?
You presented no verses at all, let alone reconciling apparently contradictory verses.
That was rather disappointing.
 

GodsGrace

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You need to understand what the issue is first.

When the good folks over at Ford motor company finish making a car and it rolls off the assembly line they can say with some measure of satisfaction..."it is finished."

But that doesn't mean the car is in someone's ownership yet.

A person has to buy it.

(now before knee-jerking and trying to erroneously correct me, do a bible study on buying in the NT...also in the OT)

So then a covenant has two parties. God has FIRST loved us. His part is complete...and we have access to His completed work. He has gotten the ball rolling...the car, in my example, has been manufactured. Now it's our turn to enter into that covenant and enter into the power of it in order that God's covenant would be manifested in us. It's time for us to show His love to the world. And yes, we will be judged on this.

It's time to get in the car and drive it (after paying the price for it of course).
True.
The New Covenant is an unconditional Covenant....
Everyone can belong to it...you have to do nothing to join it.
No Circumcision.
No following 613 laws.
No dietary requirements.

BUT you do have to be IN IT.
And God demands obedience at all times.

The Mosaic covenant was bi-lateral and didn't work.
If those reading along could understand why and the difference between that and the New Covenant, we wouldn't have to have this discussion all the time.

They should find out the difference for themselves.....
 

GodsGrace

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How does that “reconcile” all of God’s promises that you claim are abrogated?
You presented no verses at all, let alone reconciling apparently contradictory verses.
That was rather disappointing.
Just got here A.
What do you need to be reconciled?
That we're to obey God?

Reconciled to what?
 

GodsGrace

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So you, like many pastors scream from the mountaintop “obey God!!!!”
And then, they proceed to list a bunch of Christian goobly-gook!

Until pastor start preaching a simply gospel - love others because God loves you
People are going to continue practicing a surfac-y ritual bound religion with towering doctrine and a chronic drought of human kindness and love.

So please, please, please!!! Stop with the platitudes and Christianese! People don’t know what you are talking about when you tell them to obey and never tell them what it means!

Many NT verses teach each of the following spiritual truths
Believers prove true saving belief through obedience
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers faith must endure to the end of their lives
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must come through as victorious overcomers

It maybe true, but it means nothing to a new Christian and invites stupid arguments from seasoned Christians. Instead of Christianese the world needs us to get to loving!

AMEN
You know Aspen,,,I agree with you.
I know a very nice priest here that speaks at every single Mass about love...

A couple of my girlfriends (saved) and I can hardly stand it anymore.
We KNOW God loves us.
We KNOW God is love.

We want to know what He expects from us.
I don't go to church much anymore...am I going straight to the hot place?
(He says no, BTW).

Jesus spoke about love, but He also listed things we are to do to further the Kingdom of God.

Maybe priests/pastors could take a hint from HIM?
 

GodsGrace

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Sorry! I mis-wrote . . .

What I meant was . . .

That would be a righteousness based on our own works, would it not?

I am only righteous in Christ's righteousness. What righteousness I do is Christ in me. If it is just what I'm doing, well, we know what the Bible uses to describe my own "works of righteousness". Blech!

I stay righteous because Jesus gave to me His righteousness. He became sin, who know no sin, that we might become . . . the righteousness of God . . . in Him.

Much love!
Could you please explain to me the difference between OUR OWN WORKS and those works of God?

I'm talking, naturally, about a person that is saved.
(as we know, unsaved persons can work all they want to and that will not get them saved).

IOW,,, what does "If it is just what I'm doing, well, we know what the Bible uses to describe my own "works of righteousness".

Do you mean to tell me that the good deeds we do are filthy as far as God is concerned?

Could you please post some scripture to back that up?

The N.T. teaches me that I AM to DO good deeds.





  1. Galatians 6:9-10
    Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


    We will reap what we sow...IF we do not grow weary in doing good.

    What are we sowing for if not our salvation?
 

GodsGrace

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Our cooperation is CRITICALLY important as God TRIES to sanctify us? REALLY?
  • [Philippians 1:6] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
  • [Philippians 2:13] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
  • [John 3:18] "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  • [Ephesians 2:8-9] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
  • [Romans 8:29-30] For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
GOD doesn’t TRY, GOD just DOES!
Your above verses DO NOT have anything to do with sanctification....
which is a cooperative effort between man and God.

We'll go through your verses.

Philippians 1:6
Certainly. God will finish the work He began in us.
If we are IN CHRIST. You do understand the concept of remaining IN CHRIST.
If not, check out John 15:5-6

Philippians 2:13
God is within us helping us TO DO what He wants us to do.
Perhaps because He has sent the Holy Spirit to be our helper?
John 16:7
And, please not the verse just above
Philippians 2:12
Paul tells the Philippinas that since he is away from them they are EVEN MORE to OBEY GOD, doing good deeds that He would want them to do and shrinking back from what may displease Him.

John 3:18
He who doesn't believe is lost.
Nothing to do with sanctification.

Ephesians 2:8-9
This speak to INITIAL JUSTIFICATION.
NOT SANCTIFICATION.

Romans 8:29-30
God decided from the beginning that those that would come to Him would become like His Son. This is what is predestined...salvation in Christ and that we are to become like Him. And when we come to Him He declares us justified.
Again, this is not speaking about sanctification.

And please see Romans 8:24
We look FORWARD TO GETTING SOMETHING....
We do NOT already have it. Paul tells us that a man that already has something does not need to look forward to getting it.
Paul is speaking about our salvation.....


Now some verses about Sanctification:

2 Thessalonions 2:13
13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


2 Timothy 2:21
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.


(sounds like we could MAKE OURSELVES become vessels of honor)

Hebrews 2:11
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 10:14
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.



Sanctified means being set apart to do the work of God.
 

justbyfaith

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(as we know, unsaved persons can work all they want to and that will not get them saved).

And saved persons can work all they want to and it will not keep them saved.

Do you mean to tell me that the good deeds we do are filthy as far as God is concerned?

Could you please post some scripture to back that up?

Certainly.

Isa 64:6, But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


The N.T. teaches me that I AM to DO good deeds.





  1. Galatians 6:9-10
    Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


    We will reap what we sow...IF we do not grow weary in doing good.

    What are we sowing for if not our salvation?

We are sowing for the salvation of other people.

And yes, the NT tells us that we are to do good deeds; it just doesn't ever tell us that we are saved by them. In fact, it tells us the opposite; that good deeds don't save us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
This speak to INITIAL JUSTIFICATION.
NOT SANCTIFICATION.

Actually, it is talking about sanctification to. We are sanctified by the Spirit and belief of the truth. 2 Thess. 2:13.

And please see Romans 8:24
We look FORWARD TO GETTING SOMETHING....
We do NOT already have it. Paul tells us that a man that already has something does not need to look forward to getting it.
Paul is speaking about our salvation.....

Now, in Romans 8:23, the blessing being spoken of is the adoption, the redemption of the body.

If you look at Galatians 4:5-7, I think that you will see that this adoption is something that is past and present tense in the lives of the Galatian believers.

And we must compare the verses:

Rom 8:24, For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25, But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Heb 11:1, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So then, hope will tell you that there is something in store for you (the redemption of the body); and you are indeed saved by that hope.

But faith will tell you that the substance and the evidence of the redemption of the body is already here.
 

aspen

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You know Aspen,,,I agree with you.
I know a very nice priest here that speaks at every single Mass about love...

A couple of my girlfriends (saved) and I can hardly stand it anymore.
We KNOW God loves us.
We KNOW God is love.

We want to know what He expects from us.
I don't go to church much anymore...am I going straight to the hot place?
(He says no, BTW).

Jesus spoke about love, but He also listed things we are to do to further the Kingdom of God.

Maybe priests/pastors could take a hint from HIM?

Love is the gospel.
 

Phoneman777

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Heads up! … Pastors have several different reasons for
NOT telling the sheep what they desperately need to hear.


The NT words “belief” and “faith” are very inadequate!
Because of what the whole of the NT teaches,
it is obvious that one word is completely insufficient
to describe what “belief” and “faith” really mean!
The NT clearly teaches us that simply believing and
having faith is NOT nearly enough to attain salvation.


We know that a mere intellectual belief in Jesus and
the gospel will NOT save anyone … but also, is merely
a deep heart-felt belief really enough to save anyone?


Initially

When believers first receive the Holy Spirit through
God’s free gift of mercy/grace, they receive everything:
reconciliation, justification, righteousness, (positional)
sanctification, holiness, salvation … everything!


But, after initially being born-again

Our free-will co-operation with the Holy Spirit is critically
important during our (continuing) sanctification … as He
tries to sanctify us unto holiness, “for without holiness
no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).


We read in the NT that believers are tested to prove
their faith is genuine. Our initial salvation is a free gift,
but we see a lot of warnings in the NT that IF our righteous
standing (i.e. salvation) is NOT maintained, it can be lost.


So, let’s not focus on our initial receiving of salvation;
instead let’s focus on the end of our salvation process!


JUSTIFICATION is about taking Jesus as SAVIOR.
SANCTIFICATION is about making Jesus LORD.
Have you been told that BOTH are required for salvation?


If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, Savior and LORD”.
If Jesus is LORD, then we need to love and obey Him.
Indeed, He said 4 times: “Those who love Me will
obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).

And, “Those who are My friends will
obey My commandments.” (John 15:14).

Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus,
who is NOT His friend, and who does NOT obey His commands?


Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!

Pastors are responsible for WARNING the sheep about sin!
They need to teach us, for example:
● “God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives.
Therefore, anyone who refuses to live by these rules …
is rejecting God” (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8)
● “It would be better if they had never known the way
to righteousness than to know it, and then reject
the command to live a holy life” (2 Peter 2:21)


Many NT verses teach each of the following spiritual truths
Believers prove true saving belief through obedience
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers faith must endure to the end of their lives
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must come through as victorious overcomers
.
You're crazy. Obviously, things like "abide in Me or be cast into the fire", "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", "if they should fall away (it's impossible to) renew them again unto repentance", "if they become entangled therein again, the latter end of them is worse than the beginning", "thou wicked servant! I forgave you..." etc. etc. etc. are all mistranslations and what not.

All we have to do is "believe" and we can keep on sinning on our way to heaven, even having Satan as our god before God, right?
 

bbyrd009

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You're crazy. Obviously, things like "abide in Me or be cast into the fire", "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", "if they should fall away (it's impossible to) renew them again unto repentance", "if they become entangled therein again, the latter end of them is worse than the beginning", "thou wicked servant! I forgave you..." etc. etc. etc. are all mistranslations and what not.

All we have to do is "believe" and we can keep on sinning on our way to heaven, even having Satan as our god before God, right?
what gives pm
"If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, “Savior and LORD”.
If Jesus is LORD, then we need to love and obey Him.
Indeed, He said 4 times: “Those who love Me will
obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).

And, “Those who are My friends will
obey My commandments.” (John 15:14).

Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus,
who is NOT His friend, and who does NOT obey His commands?


Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!"

i mean whaddya want? for that? or what am i missing here ty
 

justbyfaith

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Obedience is not required for salvation.

Faith is the only requirement.

Faith and real salvation will produce obedience.

Therefore, if someone is disobedient to the Lord, we can safely say that they are not saved.

But it is not obedience that saves; it is the faith that produces obedience that truly saves.
 

Phoneman777

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what gives pm
"If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, “Savior and LORD”.
If Jesus is LORD, then we need to love and obey Him.
Indeed, He said 4 times: “Those who love Me will
obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).

And, “Those who are My friends will
obey My commandments.” (John 15:14).

Does anyone get to heaven who does NOT love Jesus,
who is NOT His friend, and who does NOT obey His commands?


Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!"

i mean whaddya want? for that? or what am i missing here ty
yeah, you missed it :) Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd, as the great MahaRushie says LOL
 
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