How Can a Loving God Send People To Hell?

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Edifier

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That's a question I get a lot, and I believe that I answer that question in a devotion I wrote today. I want to share it with you, incase you don't believe that our God Jehova is a loving God because HE IS! Devotion title: "God's Perfect Love""Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 (KJV)How many friends do you have that you would lay your life down for? Me personally? If I did an honest evalution, probably very few. Jesus on the other hand, he laid His life down for the entire world! Well, I should say the entire world several times over... Because He laid His life down for His generation, the generations before, and the generations after. Every generation of people, Christ died for. You, your children, your grandchildren, your great grandchildren and the list never ends. This is how much love He has in His heart. That's A LOT of love! Not only does He love us as a whole, but He loves each of us personally. He desires a personal relationship. Some want nothing to do with Jesus, they feel that their favorite band loves them more than Christ could. Well, Third Day, MercyMe, and all my other favorite bands never wanted to have a personal relationship with me. Of course they have a relationship with their fans as a whole, but not a personal relationship. Jesus wants a personal relationship with you, and He died and rose again to get it! He stopped at no length to get this relationship with you and me. How can you reject that love? Our God is truly perfect in every sense of the word.Don't be fooled people, some would have you believe that our beliefs are a religion of war and hate. Those who think that are VERY confused and VERY wrong! Christianity is all about love, the Bible is a love letter to the church or a love story: About how God who's own law of perfection kept Him from the people He loves who are sinners, and about how He gave His only Son as a ransom in order to get around that law and be with His children at ANY cost. People think that God wants to send them to Hell because they choose not to follow Him. What they don't understand is that not even God has a choice. If you don't accept Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved and not even God can change those rules. So, don't be bitter at God... Instead allow Him to save you. God cannot have fellowship with sin in any way, and the only way to be cleansed of our sin is through the blood of Jesus Christ. Sin is what separates us from God, and the blood of Jesus is what reunites us with God. It is impossible for light to fellowship with darkness, therefore it's impossible for imperfection to fellowship with perfection. Be made perfect through the blood of Jesus!Prayer: Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this message and for all things. Please forgive us of all our sins as we forgive all those who've sinned against us. Help us to accept your love, and know that your love for us has no end and that there is no greater love. Help us to share your love with others, and to be the people you want us to be. In Jesus name. A-men!
 

Sasha

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Prayer: Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this message and for all things. QUOTE]We should not thank God FOR all things. We should however thank God IN all things. We should never thank God for cancer, aids, depression, or anything else that SATAN places in peoples lives. Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy. We should thank God while dealing with cancer, aids, depression or whatever. We don't thank God for them. Because they are not from God. Give God praise in all things not for all things. God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness. That includes dominion over the earth and authority over satan and all his power (demons). Whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever we lose on eath will be losed in heaven. Bind the spirit of cancer, aids, depression or whatever, from opperating against you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Lose the demonic spirit of cancer, aids, depression or whatever from thier assignment against you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then use the dominion you have and command your body to be healed, command your body to function and opperate the way God designed it to, in the name of Jesus Christ. However, you need to have the Holy Spirit inside you to have the power of the Holy Spirit to opperate through you. Prayer: 'Father God, just as I receive Jesus as my Lord and saviour by faith, I now receive your baptism with your Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues by faith, and I thank you Father God in the name of Jesus I now speak in tongues.'Praise the Lord!!! God has given us EVERYTHING we need for life and godliness. EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING.
 

Edifier

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I think you really misunderstand what I was saying... By all things I mean all things in my life, which I believe God put in my life for a reason. I thank God for everything in my life the good and the bad because the bad makes me stronger. Also, I have to disagree with the power of tongues being the only way one can tell if they have The Holy Spirit. You see we all have DIFFERENT gifts from the Holy Spirit. Not everyone will get the gift of tongues, some will receive the gift of prophesy, discernment of spirit, etc. By limiting the power of the Holy Spirit to just tongues you deceive many to believe that they aren't saved."For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ." 1 Corinthians 12:8-12 (KJV)
 

Sasha

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I think you really misunderstand what I was saying... By all things I mean all things in my life, which I believe God put in my life for a reason. I thank God for everything in my life the good and the bad because the bad makes me stronger. COLOR="darkred"]God takes whatever the devil means for evil and God turns it for good. The devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy.[/COLOR] Also, I have to disagree with the power of tongues being the only way one can tell if they have The Holy Spirit. I didn't say it was the only way you could tell. Lots of people have the Holy Spirit within them and still do not pray correctly. However, Rev. 3:20 clearly states that you don't atomaticly receive the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation. 'Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and lets me in, I will dine with him and he with me. So says the Spirit to the churches. (The Spirit of God says to the believers, christians, the body of Christ, the church.) Some do receive at salvation because they ask God for His Holy Spirit, and freely He gives to those who ask.You see we all have DIFFERENT gifts from the Holy Spirit. Not everyone will get the gift of tongues, some will receive the gift of prophesy, discernment of spirit, etc. By limiting the power of the Holy Spirit to just tongues you deceive many to believe that they aren't saved."For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ." 1 Corinthians 12:8-12 (KJV)
There's a gift of tongues to edify the church and a private love language to God. (unknown tongue)
 

Jordan

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I think you really misunderstand what I was saying... By all things I mean all things in my life, which I believe God put in my life for a reason. I thank God for everything in my life the good and the bad because the bad makes me stronger. Also, I have to disagree with the power of tongues being the only way one can tell if they have The Holy Spirit. You see we all have DIFFERENT gifts from the Holy Spirit. Not everyone will get the gift of tongues, some will receive the gift of prophesy, discernment of spirit, etc. By limiting the power of the Holy Spirit to just tongues you deceive many to believe that they aren't saved."For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ." 1 Corinthians 12:8-12 (KJV)
There's a gift of tongues to edify the church and a private love language to God. (unknown tongue)Oh boy, there is no such thing as an unknown tongue. It is in italics in the KJV. It's not in the Greek manuscripts. And unknown tongues edify self, not Church. It means foreign languages.
 

Sasha

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Personal prayer lanuage!! No one understands!!! It edifies self not because you're praying for yourself but, because it is building up the spiritman (you) and summitting the fleshman, (your mind) to the holy spirit (who is the one praying through you spirit in tongues).It doesn't matter if it is an unknown language or a forieng language, what matters is it is The holy spirit praying through you.it is the holy spirit that gave them utterence, then and it is the holy spirit that gives us utterence today.
 

logabe

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During the battle of Jericho, a man named Achan took silver, gold, and a Babylonish garment from Jericho and buried them in the ground under his tent (Joshua 7:21). He stole that which was "devoted" to God. As a result, Israel lost the next battle against the city of Ai, and 36 men of Israel were killed. Joshua prayed to know why this disaster had befallen them, and God told him that there was sin in the camp. He investigated the matter and found that Achan had not given God all the devoted things. Joshua 7:25 and 26 says,25 And Joshua said, "Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day." And all Israel stoned them with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones. 26 And they raised over him a great heap of stones that stands to this day, and the LORD turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of that place has been called the valley of Achor ["trouble"] to this day.The Achan Doctrine is the idea that these "enemies" of God, the citizens of Jericho or Babylon, ought to be annihilated, buried in the ground, or burned in hell in punishment for their sins. Achan buried the gold and silver under his tent. This was stealing from God, because God has laid claim to all the spoils of this war. Furthermore, Achan also stole a Babylonish garment. This, too, has prophetic significance. It indicates that Achan desired to retain a part of Babylonish thinking. He preferred the Babylonish garment to the garments of salvation mentioned in Isaiah 61:10 and 11.10 I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth brings forth its sprouts, And as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up, So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise To spring up before all the nations.This is the same chapter from which Jesus quoted at the beginning of His ministry to indicate His calling to set the captives free. The chapter is part of Isaiah's commentary on the law of Jubilee. It is, therefore, linked to the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, or "Booths." The Hebrew word translated Booths or Tabernacles is sukkoth. Its root is sukka, which is also a bridal canopy. It represents the clothing of righteousness that is the ultimate reward of the believer, portrayed in Jesus' transfiguration.Achan was a type of man who would give up the reward of transfiguration in the Feast of Tabernacles, rather than give up his Babylonian garment-the doctrine that God should not have all the gold and silver (people) of the world.Logabe
 

logabe

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Hosea 2:15 prophesies that some day the valley of Achor ("Trouble") would become "a door of hope." The valley of Achor was the place where Achan was stoned (Joshua 7:26) for stealing the gold and silver from the spoils of Jericho. Hosea shows that the story of Achan was prophetic and had a future fulfillment. It was connected to the time of Israel's trouble, when they were to be cast out of the land by God's judgment. The door of hope was Israel's restoration to God, and this was based in part on the Noahic covenant God made with every living creature in the ninth chapter of Genesis. Hence, we read in Hosea 2:18,18 In that day I will also make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds of the sky, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety.If this is the case, then we see the Achan Doctrine as an anti-restoration teaching. The second Joshua (Jesus) will come with Urim and Thummim and will identify this troubling doctrine. And when He does, the people will go to that tent and find the stolen silver and gold, and bring all things to the feet of Joshua. God has purposed to be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28), and no man can withstand it (Romans 9:19).The exclusive and narrow view of salvation, the Achan of today, will be identified and destroyed by the revelation of truth. The solution to Achan in the Valley of Achor will also be a door of hope to the whole world, for all the treasures of the earth will be brought to Joshua and be restored to God's storehouse.I believe that we are near to entering the Promised Land of the Tabernacles Age. The day is fast approaching and now is when our Joshua-Jesus is ready to expose the great Achan Doctrine which troubles Israel. Like those who were sent to Achan's tent to uncover the buried gold and silver, we too are called to bring these things to light and to bring the devoted things into His treasury.There is no place in Scripture where we are called to enter a ministry where we preach eternal torment to the people. As we have seen in the first post, this is, in fact, the Doctrine of Achan. It is directly opposed to the ministry of the conciliation, which Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [katallasso, "conciliation"], 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling ["conciliating"] the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation ["conciliation"]. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled ["conciliated"] to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul explains to the Christians that they have been called as ambassadors of Christ to a ministry of conciliation. That is, Christians have been entrusted with a message to give to the world. It is NOT a word of hellfire and brimstone. It is NOT the bad news of the damned. It is the good news "that God was in Christ conciliating THE WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against THEM."Certainly, there may be a time when God calls someone to give someone or a nation a word of warning of impending judgment. However, this is not the overall message that Christians have been called to give the world at large. And yet we often find that the gospel, which means "good news," has been altered by a misunderstanding of God's purpose and plan to both justify and reconcile all men unto Himself.I used to be of the opinion that it was my Christian duty to convince others that they were sinners and in danger of God's wrath. After learning of God's plan to restore all men and conciliate the world, I began to share these things with the unbelievers. I was surprised at how quickly they responded to God's word and became very excited about getting to know God. I found that these people joyfully repented of their sin and turned to God out of a heart of love. They were overawed at the wisdom and knowledge of God. They rejoiced at the justice and mercy of God. Their lives were changed forever by the power of love and forgiveness.Until the Church understands the ministry of the conciliation, it will enjoy only limited success in converting the world. Many will respond to God out of fear of hell, but vast numbers will reject God as well. Fear is a good motivator, but love is better. Even so, we are not here to discuss tactics, but to find the truth. I believe that the truth of the conciliation will be the impetus for the final great world revival that will sweep the earth in the Tabernacles Age. Jesus Christ will not need to FORCE the nations into submission, for once they come to know Him, He will prove to be "the desire of all nations" (Haggai 2:7, KJV). Revelation 15:4 poses the question,4 Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed.Logabe
 

tim_from_pa

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Not all Christians believe Hell is eternal and that doctrine came from a paganistic view of hell. God said that because of sin man willl die. Death means one ceases to exist.Now I do believe there will be torment for a season of the wicked as they are resurrected like the righteous ones (John 5:28-29)As Paul taught, in Adam all die, and in Christ ALL shall be made alive. That means ALL will be resurrected. However, some to life eternal and others to the Second Death (Revelation 20:14) where they will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be burned up and annihilated. The problem with believing in "eternal torment" where one consciously exists in torment is that they don't die. As one fellow in our church stated (who believes in eternal torment) "We ALL have eternal life: it's WHERE are you going to spend it. In heaven or hell?" Unknowingly he just admitted that consciousness equates with life. But the bible says, "The soul that sins will DIE". If one is in torment forever and ever, they are NOT DEAD! They are alive but tormented instead. That's the intrinsic definition of death--- no more awareness.
 

Sasha

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The second death is of the spiritman, and means forever seperated from the presence of God, just pure evil.
 

Jordan

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The second death is of the spiritman, and means forever seperated from the presence of God, just pure evil.
Wrong, the second death is not spiritual death. The second death is a physical death of your true existance. (IE soul / spirit) Just as the first death is a physical death of your flesh body.
 

logabe

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Romans 5:18.18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.Our liability for Adam's sin simply makes us mortal in this age. And that mortality, death reigning over us in our souls and bodies, makes us morally sick or weak so that we are incapable of moral perfection. So long as we are mortal, we shall be corruptible. They go together (1 Cor. 15:53). Thus, our mortality itself is the cause of our individual sins, which God will deal with by means of the second death, the lake of fire.The second death is distinct from the first death in two ways: (1) its purpose is to judge men for their own individual sins and to restore the lawful order; and (2) its timing is set for the age following the Tabernacles Age, when the unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire.There are two sins and two deaths spoken of in the Bible. The penalty for Adam's sin is the first death; God's judgment, lawful correction, and discipline for our own sins is the second death. No man will ever be cast into the lake of fire as judgment for Adam's sin. Adam's original (first) sin is judged by means of the first death; subsequently, our individual sins are judged by means of the second death.This may seem self-evident and obvious to all, but unfortunately some theologians and Bible translators have run aground on this simple truth. In fact, this is why Romans 5:12 was mistranslated as early as 1600 years ago in Jerome's Latin Vulgate, and this error was brought over into the King James Version, the New American Standard, and many other English translations as well. To my knowledge, only The Concordant Version translates it correctly, "on which."Paul gives us his own illustration to prove what he means in Romans 5:12. This should clarify all confusion, as we read in verses 13 and 14,12. . . death spread to all men, ON WHICH all sinned- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Many people had sinned (personally) between the time of Adam and Moses. However, because the Law as such had not been given and actually ratified by the people until the time of Moses, their personal sins were not imputed to them. Nonetheless, men died during that whole time, proving that they were mortal not on account of their own sins, but on account of Adam's sin. This may seem like a strange way for Paul to prove his point, but it clearly shows us what Paul had in mind. It is Adam's sin that brings death to all men-not our own individual sins. In the day Adam sinned, he died (became mortal), and so we inherit that mortality.And so this death is clearly shown to be the first death, not the second death. The theologians and translators who attempt to correct Paul's theology simply think of themselves more highly than they ought to think. Their lack of understanding brought them to conclude that man has a sinful soul, rather than a mortal soul that sins. This has given Christians a disproportionate sense of guilt that was often accompanied by a sense of hopelessness.Logabe
 

tim_from_pa

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Romans 5:18.18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.Our liability for Adam's sin simply makes us mortal in this age. And that mortality, death reigning over us in our souls and bodies, makes us morally sick or weak so that we are incapable of moral perfection. So long as we are mortal, we shall be corruptible. They go together (1 Cor. 15:53). Thus, our mortality itself is the cause of our individual sins, which God will deal with by means of the second death, the lake of fire.The second death is distinct from the first death in two ways: (1) its purpose is to judge men for their own individual sins and to restore the lawful order; and (2) its timing is set for the age following the Tabernacles Age, when the unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire.There are two sins and two deaths spoken of in the Bible. The penalty for Adam's sin is the first death; God's judgment, lawful correction, and discipline for our own sins is the second death. No man will ever be cast into the lake of fire as judgment for Adam's sin. Adam's original (first) sin is judged by means of the first death; subsequently, our individual sins are judged by means of the second death.This may seem self-evident and obvious to all, but unfortunately some theologians and Bible translators have run aground on this simple truth. In fact, this is why Romans 5:12 was mistranslated as early as 1600 years ago in Jerome's Latin Vulgate, and this error was brought over into the King James Version, the New American Standard, and many other English translations as well. To my knowledge, only The Concordant Version translates it correctly, "on which."Paul gives us his own illustration to prove what he means in Romans 5:12. This should clarify all confusion, as we read in verses 13 and 14,12. . . death spread to all men, ON WHICH all sinned- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Many people had sinned (personally) between the time of Adam and Moses. However, because the Law as such had not been given and actually ratified by the people until the time of Moses, their personal sins were not imputed to them. Nonetheless, men died during that whole time, proving that they were mortal not on account of their own sins, but on account of Adam's sin. This may seem like a strange way for Paul to prove his point, but it clearly shows us what Paul had in mind. It is Adam's sin that brings death to all men-not our own individual sins. In the day Adam sinned, he died (became mortal), and so we inherit that mortality.And so this death is clearly shown to be the first death, not the second death. The theologians and translators who attempt to correct Paul's theology simply think of themselves more highly than they ought to think. Their lack of understanding brought them to conclude that man has a sinful soul, rather than a mortal soul that sins. This has given Christians a disproportionate sense of guilt that was often accompanied by a sense of hopelessness.Logabe
Very, very insightful. I love to see your posts. I never thought of it that way, but I have always believed it that way without realizing it!We all experience the first death due to Adam's sin, for the human race are all offspring of Adam.However, WE as individuals can choose whether to believe God or not, thus we either experience the SECOND BIRTH or the SECOND DEATH which is our own doing so-to-speak.One either has two births and one death, or the opposite is one birth and two deaths.I'm not sure if you believe that the second death is eternal torment or not, but I never made that a "salvation issue". I was raised Evangelical which taught that one suffered eternally. However, if one KNOWS they are suffering, then they still exist which did not make sense that they experienced a SECOND DEATH. I believe the devil and his angels will suffer forever, however. I know some of my friends here do not believe that and that's their right (AND MAYBE THEY ARE RIGHT) But my reasoning there is that angelic beings are created immortal, but not man (I have scriptures that I believe teach that). So an immortal being does not know life or death since they exist forever---- that's different than man.Most of what I believe is British-Israel type beliefs. One guy I like is Peter Salemi who wrote an article that in it stated that Satan wants man to believe that their fate is his fate (regarding eternal conscious punishment). So I do believe Satan's fate is different than unbelieving man.
 

Jordan

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...We all experience the first death due to Adam's sin, for the human race are all offspring of Adam...
Oh ... here I go again. We can be of Adam's offspring spiritually if we follow Christ. The matter of the fact is, not everybody is in the world is of Adam's offspring physically. We can be of the race of Kenites through Cain from the father Satan, (Genesis 3:15, Genesis 4) or the race of Genesis 1:26-28.
 

tim_from_pa

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Oh ... here I go again. We can be of Adam's offspring spiritually if we follow Christ. The matter of the fact is, not everybody is in the world is of Adam's offspring physically. We can be of the race of Kenites through Cain from the father Satan, (Genesis 3:15, Genesis 4) or the race of Genesis 1:26-28.
I respectfully disagree. If God wanted to create a pure race for Christ to come, then why would He create a "competitive race" of man that could mess it up by possibly interbreeding with them? (that's something Satan would do, but not God). It makes no logical sense let alone the bible does not say this unless one wants to mince interpretative words that make it seem to say this. The passages that supposedly say this another person can interpret differently. That's why I use the apocryphal books to settle the issue, and they say that mankind is one species. This makes sense since there are only one species of cats, dogs, apes, and so forth.Satan could try to mess it up with a serpent seed with Eve (creating Cain). that would make sense. However, the flood took them out. The bible makes allowances for this to happen again so the fact that these people are supposedly around today can happen without having them come from Cain's race. Aliens, Poltergeists and other power supernatural beings that try to reproduce is evidence enough for that.I am a man that studied genealogies. In ALL cases, God narrowed the genealogy in the bible for the specific purpose He intended. Of Adam's race, He chosen Seth. Of that lineage, he chosen Noah. Of that lineage He chosen Abraham. Of Abraham He chosen Judah and Joseph. The other lineages were not chosen and as such such were not blessed.We do not need a separate lineage or one from Cain to be cursed. That's indisputable fact from genealogical examples in the bible. It is possible to be from Adam's race, or Abraham's seed and be cursed. No argument there and no need for spurious races.Read the apocryphal books and see that I am right. Case closed.
 

Jordan

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(Jordan;63545)
Oh ... here I go again. We can be of Adam's offspring spiritually if we follow Christ. The matter of the fact is, not everybody is in the world is of Adam's offspring physically. We can be of the race of Kenites through Cain from the father Satan, (Genesis 3:15, Genesis 4) or the race of Genesis 1:26-28.
I respectfully disagree. If God wanted to create a pure race for Christ to come, then why would He create a "competitive race" of man that could mess it up by possibly interbreeding with them? (that's something Satan would do, but not God). It makes no logical sense let alone the bible does not say this unless one wants to mince interpretative words that make it seem to say this. The passages that supposedly say this another person can interpret differently. That's why I use the apocryphal books to settle the issue, and they say that mankind is one species. This makes sense since there are only one species of cats, dogs, apes, and so forth.Satan could try to mess it up with a serpent seed with Eve (creating Cain). that would make sense. However, the flood took them out. The bible makes allowances for this to happen again so the fact that these people are supposedly around today can happen without having them come from Cain's race. Aliens, Poltergeists and other power supernatural beings that try to reproduce is evidence enough for that.I am a man that studied genealogies. In ALL cases, God narrowed the genealogy in the bible for the specific purpose He intended. Of Adam's race, He chosen Seth. Of that lineage, he chosen Noah. Of that lineage He chosen Abraham. Of Abraham He chosen Judah and Joseph. The other lineages were not chosen and as such such were not blessed.We do not need a separate lineage or one from Cain to be cursed. That's indisputable fact from genealogical examples in the bible. It is possible to be from Adam's race, or Abraham's seed and be cursed. No argument there and no need for spurious races.Read the apocryphal books and see that I am right. Case closed.Case re-opened.That's a bit absurd and ridiculous to say case closed when we haven't even started a conversation. No offense to you. You must understand that Satan was aiming at Adam & his seed, because he knew Christ would be born off that seed. (Adam's offspring) You must understand that the races of Genesis 1:26-28 means nothing to Satan, but at the same time, he knew they are going to be deceived anyway in time being.Where did black people, yellow people, red people, white people come from? Can Adam contains all that skin colors at once?If all the humans born of Adam's seed, who was Cain afraid of (Genesis 4:14) after He murdered his HALF-brother Abel (Genesis 4:8) when God banned him from Adam & Eve? (Genesis 4:14) Who did Cain married (Genesis 4:17) after he started dwelt in a land called Nod, which means the land of Wander? (Genesis 4:16)And no, the flood did not take the entire races out. He spared 2 of each race as God commanded Noah to do so. 1 Male and 1 Female of each race. (Genesis 6:19, Genesis 7:15) except Adam's offspring which has 8 souls in the ark. (Noah, his wife, his three sons, and his son's wife) Is not men part of flesh? (Genesis 6:3)
 

tim_from_pa

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Jul 11, 2007
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According to the rules, we are not to debate here, but since you brought this up, I'll answer your questions.
Where did black people, yellow people, red people, white people come from? Can Adam contains all that skin colors at once?
Most certainly. You are not going to suggest that Adam is only of the white race that blushes, do you? One easy scripture to disprove that is Kedar and his descendants. Kedar literally means "dark" (skinned). I can clearly and easily trace Kedar to Adam, ie. I can list his fathers back to Adam. That's clearly and indisputably in the bible.
If all the humans born of Adam's seed, who was Cain afraid of (Genesis 4:14) after He murdered his HALF-brother Abel (Genesis 4:8) when God banned him from Adam & Eve? (Genesis 4:14) Who did Cain married (Genesis 4:17) after he started dwelt in a land called Nod, which means the land of Wander? (Genesis 4:16)
Adam and Eve had other children clearly stated in scripture. Genesis 5:4. Nowhere does it say in scripture how old Cain was when this happened, but old enough that more people were around then. The apocryphal books claim that Cain married his sister Awan. I'm sure somebody does not go to bed one night and just dream this up. The idea came from somewhere. The other people came from Adam and Eve. And for an extra bonus, the bible does not specifically say Cain met his wife in Nod, but it matters not whether he did or not. As long as Awan or whoever one wants to call her existed, she could have been near the proximity of Cain, or she could have migrated there. As for building a city, if each couple had 10 kids, simple math would show that in 3 generations there would be about 300+ people from one couple alone. Nothing says how many kids Adam and Eve had nor each one of their kids. Like all good cities, it probably had a modest start but grew in size. But the genealogies list just the predominant lineages.
And no, the flood did not take the entire races out. He spared 2 of each race as God commanded Noah to do so. 1 Male and 1 Female of each race. (Genesis 6:19, Genesis 7:15) except Adam's offspring which has 8 souls in the ark. (Noah, his wife, his three sons, and his son's wife) Is not men part of flesh? (Genesis 6:3)
There's several problems I see here. First of all, the flood was worldwide. How do I know? even science attests to that. I can go to Australia or up in Canada on opposite sides of the world and see a rainbow. A rainbow was a sign of the covenant that God would never flood the earth again. If there was no flood in say, Australia, then the sign would be meaningless. We all know that a rainbow is merely the prism effect created by water droplets, so there is nothing to create. What must have changed is the nature of earth's atmosphere. Clearly, the atmosphere does not change in only one location and not the other. Secondly, if the flood was local, there would be a tremendous mass on one side of the earth. If it could stay there, the earth's angular momentum as it rotated would create a washing machine effect. You know what that is? Something as little as a wash cloth or towel bunched up on one side of the drum causes the wash machine to become terribly unbalanced and shake like crazy making the machine walk across the floor. Do this to the earth and it would fall apart. Indeed, the rotation would try to distribute the water worldwide even if only a certain portion of the sky broke open as the rotation would naturally distribute the mass. And Lastly, Noah would not need a boat. He could have just migrated like the so-called Satanic races to escape judgment. I don't have too much respect for any God that would wipe out the human race because of the tainted offspring of the angels and then not destroy all the angels themselves. that would be pretty ineffectual. Jesus makes the coming end times sound as "in the days of Noah". Are we then to believe that the Tribulation is on only one part of the earth?Secondly, by your own admission, or I should say by deduction, that these alternate races do not have souls. Yet you say they can believe and be saved. The bible teaches that only 8 souls were aboard the ark. Sure there were other animals, but the bible does not give them the same level as the 8 that were saved. So if there were other races of men on there, then all I have to say is they are no better than the beasts and incapable of salvation. If on the other hand all men are capable of salvation, then they must be considered souls that came from these 8. And that brings to mind another point. God only breathed life into Adam (Genesis 2:7) which gave him that God quality--- no other race.I can respect this forum if folks here say that they want to believe the bible and not teachings of men. But your interpretations have to come from men to conjure up a meaning by picking the words apart to fit a preconceived notion when other scriptures clearly say the opposite. This is because when there are other scriptures that clearly teach the opposite, then one has to song and dance around it to make it say something else. That very act is what those who do not believe in the lost tribes of Israel do. A verse like Genesis 35:11 clearly teaches that nations would come from Jacob, but then mainline religions song and dance around that verse by making it into spiritual nations, or nations that were not blessed in the genealogies or whatever. This is why they cannot answer that point.Likewise, why would I want to pride myself in interpreting God's Word in a straightforward manner like the passage that says 8 souls were saved, and then song and dance explaining that this is not what the bible really means? I'd be then doing exactly what I accuse my critics of doing. Let's all stay consistent here.
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
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In any discussion of the duration of the lake of fire, it inevitably boils down to the meaning of the Greek word aionios and the Hebrew word olam. The words literally mean “age” or “age-abiding,” but they are often translated “eternal” or “everlasting” in the modern English translations. And so, this normally becomes the central issue.The judgments of God are aionios (and olam) in duration. This Greek term has been misunderstood for about 1,500 years, but the early Church in Asia, Greece, and Egypt understood it to mean “pertaining to an eon.” It is the adjective form of the Greek word eon, that is, an AGE. In spite of this, many English translations continue to translate the word to mean “eternal” or “everlasting,” because of their doctrinal bias.Strong's Concordance says this about the Greek word aion:“aion: from the same as 104 [aei, ‘continued duration']; prop. an age; by extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).”In other words, according to Strong's Concordance, aion properly means “an age,” but he says that by extension it means “perpetuity.” Thus, he says that it can mean either a limited period of time or an unlimited period of time. But to make it an unlimited period of time requires extending its basic, usual meaning, which is limited.He also shows that in Jewish usage of the term, “The Age” referred to the Messianic Age—that is, the age in which the Messiah would rule the earth. This particular application, we will discuss shortly.Dr. Bullinger, in his Appendix 129 to The Companion Bible, says:“aion = an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite, and may be limited or extended as the context of each occurrence may demand.“The root meaning of aion is expressed by the Heb. olam . . . which denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration; just as we speak of ‘the patriarchal age', or ‘the golden age', etc. Hence, it has come to denote any given period of time, characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.“In the plural we have the Heb. olamim and Gr. aiones used of ages, or of a succession of age-times, and of an abiding from age to age. From this comes the adjective aionios . . . used of an unrestricted duration, as distinct from a particular or limited age-time. These age-times must be distinct or they could not be added to, or multiplied, as in the expression aions of aions.“These ages or age-times were all prepared and arranged by God (see Heb. 1:2; 11:3); and there is a constant distinction in the New Testament between ‘this age' and the ‘coming age' (see Matt. 12:32; Heb. 1:2; Eph. 1:21).”Thus, Dr. Bullinger agrees with Strong that the basic meaning of aion is an age that lasts an indefinite period of time. In other words, some ages are longer than others, but an age has both a beginning and an end.Logabe
 

Jordan

Active Member
Apr 6, 2007
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Tim, I think CB has NO problem with debating to further to understand God's Words.I know CB has a problem with debating if it's another Catholicism vs Protestant. I am neither of them, for both are very flawed.................Christina, just in case if I'm wrong about the top of what I said, please edit, actually add-on to my post AT the very bottom saying that I'm not allowed to debate for any right reasons I think of.................(tim_from_pa;63554)
According to the rules, we are not to debate here, but since you brought this up, I'll answer your questions.(Jordan;63551)
Where did black people, yellow people, red people, white people come from? Can Adam contains all that skin colors at once?
Most certainly. You are not going to suggest that Adam is only of the white race that blushes, do you? One easy scripture to disprove that is Kedar and his descendants. Kedar literally means "dark" (skinned). I can clearly and easily trace Kedar to Adam, ie. I can list his fathers back to Adam. That's clearly and indisputably in the bible.(Jordan;63551)
If all the humans born of Adam's seed, who was Cain afraid of (Genesis 4:14) after He murdered his HALF-brother Abel (Genesis 4:8) when God banned him from Adam & Eve? (Genesis 4:14) Who did Cain married (Genesis 4:17) after he started dwelt in a land called Nod, which means the land of Wander? (Genesis 4:16)
Adam and Eve had other children clearly stated in scripture. Genesis 5:4. Nowhere does it say in scripture how old Cain was when this happened, but old enough that more people were around then. The apocryphal books claim that Cain married his sister Awan. I'm sure somebody does not go to bed one night and just dream this up. The idea came from somewhere. The other people came from Adam and Eve. And for an extra bonus, the bible does not specifically say Cain met his wife in Nod, but it matters not whether he did or not. As long as Awan or whoever one wants to call her existed, she could have been near the proximity of Cain, or she could have migrated there. As for building a city, if each couple had 10 kids, simple math would show that in 3 generations there would be about 300+ people from one couple alone. Nothing says how many kids Adam and Eve had nor each one of their kids. Like all good cities, it probably had a modest start but grew in size. But the genealogies list just the predominant lineages.(Jordan;63551)
And no, the flood did not take the entire races out. He spared 2 of each race as God commanded Noah to do so. 1 Male and 1 Female of each race. (Genesis 6:19, Genesis 7:15) except Adam's offspring which has 8 souls in the ark. (Noah, his wife, his three sons, and his son's wife) Is not men part of flesh? (Genesis 6:3)
There's several problems I see here. First of all, the flood was worldwide. How do I know? even science attests to that. I can go to Australia or up in Canada on opposite sides of the world and see a rainbow. A rainbow was a sign of the covenant that God would never flood the earth again. If there was no flood in say, Australia, then the sign would be meaningless. We all know that a rainbow is merely the prism effect created by water droplets, so there is nothing to create. What must have changed is the nature of earth's atmosphere. Clearly, the atmosphere does not change in only one location and not the other. Secondly, if the flood was local, there would be a tremendous mass on one side of the earth. If it could stay there, the earth's angular momentum as it rotated would create a washing machine effect. You know what that is? Something as little as a wash cloth or towel bunched up on one side of the drum causes the wash machine to become terribly unbalanced and shake like crazy making the machine walk across the floor. Do this to the earth and it would fall apart. Indeed, the rotation would try to distribute the water worldwide even if only a certain portion of the sky broke open as the rotation would naturally distribute the mass. And Lastly, Noah would not need a boat. He could have just migrated like the so-called Satanic races to escape judgment. I don't have too much respect for any God that would wipe out the human race because of the tainted offspring of the angels and then not destroy all the angels themselves. that would be pretty ineffectual. Jesus makes the coming end times sound as "in the days of Noah". Are we then to believe that the Tribulation is on only one part of the earth?Secondly, by your own admission, or I should say by deduction, that these alternate races do not have souls. Yet you say they can believe and be saved. The bible teaches that only 8 souls were aboard the ark. Sure there were other animals, but the bible does not give them the same level as the 8 that were saved. So if there were other races of men on there, then all I have to say is they are no better than the beasts and incapable of salvation. If on the other hand all men are capable of salvation, then they must be considered souls that came from these 8. And that brings to mind another point. God only breathed life into Adam (Genesis 2:7) which gave him that God quality--- no other race.I can respect this forum if folks here say that they want to believe the bible and not teachings of men. But your interpretations have to come from men to conjure up a meaning by picking the words apart to fit a preconceived notion when other scriptures clearly say the opposite. This is because when there are other scriptures that clearly teach the opposite, then one has to song and dance around it to make it say something else. That very act is what those who do not believe in the lost tribes of Israel do. A verse like Genesis 35:11 clearly teaches that nations would come from Jacob, but then mainline religions song and dance around that verse by making it into spiritual nations, or nations that were not blessed in the genealogies or whatever. This is why they cannot answer that point.Likewise, why would I want to pride myself in interpreting God's Word in a straightforward manner like the passage that says 8 souls were saved, and then song and dance explaining that this is not what the bible really means? I'd be then doing exactly what I accuse my critics of doing. Let's all stay consistent here.This post is disgusting to be honest.Quote #1 - You say "Most certainly."Scriptures?Quote #2 - You say "The apocryphal books claim that Cain married his sister Awan."I do have a problem, a major flaw in that. I do have a problem in your conclusion that God who banned Cain from going back to Adam & Eve after murdering Abel, was then allowed to marry his sister. Which came first? Genesis 4? or Genesis 5? Cain is not the son of Adam, clearly contradicts Genesis 3:15.Secondly, I do have a problem with the fact that since Cain is indeed the son of Adam in your conclusion, that Satan and Christ indeed can dwell together... That's disgusting.Thirdly, I have a problem with Jews and Gentiles being directly with Adam since you said that the whole human race by him.Quote #3 - You say "the flood was worldwide."No one is disagreeing with you that the flood is worldwide. And no I don't believe that the tribulation is part Earth. Scriptures made it clear that the whole world will be deceived by Satan. It is the whole World event. Just the fact of the details you posted. We will have to agree to disagree.I will say the same to you. Likewise, why would I want to pride myself in interpreting God's Word in a straightforward manner?
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
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The lake of fire is described in Revelation 20 as the final judgment of God upon sinners when they are “judged according to their works.” The scene is also described in Daniel 7, where the prophet saw it as a “river of fire” in verse 10. Daniel saw the legal process as judgment flowed from the fiery throne to the people. John saw the process completed, as the river turned into a lake. Yet both seemed awestruck by the throne.There are two primary questions that must be resolved in studying the lake or river of fire. First, what is the nature of this fire? Is it literal or symbolic? Secondly, what is the duration of this fiery judgment? Will it last for all time, or will this period of judgment come to an end?Since God is spirit (John 4:24) and can manifest to us in whatever form He wishes, we must ask why He chose to manifest Himself in such a manner to Daniel and John. Why should He be called “the Ancient of Days” and portray Himself with white hair? Keep in mind that this is a court scene, where the dead are being raised to stand before God at the bar of justice. Part of the answer is to be found in the law in Leviticus 19:32,32 You shall RISE UP before the grayheaded, and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.The law is not merely a command to stand up before an elder in authority. It is also prophetic of what will happen when the Ancient of Days comes to be seated upon His throne. The dead will “rise up” and stand before Him. Therefore, He is pictured as having white hair. It is part of the prophecy of the resurrection of the dead. We continue now with the description of the throne in Daniel 7:9, 10,9 . . . His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; the court sat, and the books were opened.The source of the fire is shown to be the throne itself. Thrones symbolize authority and law, or more specifically, the administration of the law by one in authority. To be seated upon a throne signified that the king was issuing decrees or judgments in an official capacity according to the laws of the nation. In America, where we have no king, we have a separate judicial system, and the judges sit “at the bench.” When the judge enters the court room, the people “all rise.” The “bench” indicates that the judge will now judge matters according to the law of the land.Compare Daniel's vision to that seen by John in Revelation 20:11, 12,11 And I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.It is plain that Daniel and John both saw the same final judgment of sinners before the great white throne. Because the dead are judged “according to their deeds,” it is plain that they are being judged by the law, which is the divine standard of right and wrong. The divine law measures the deeds of all men to see what is a sin and what is righteous. Paul says in Romans 3:20, “through the law comes the knowledge of sin.” And in Romans 7:7 “I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, You shall not covet.”In other words, the divine law defines sin and is the standard by which all of men's deeds are judged. As John says so simply in 1 John 3:4, “sin is lawlessness.”Logabe