Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

atpollard · Jul 18, 2019

CNKW3 said:
I will be happy to believe the Bible if you’ll show me where God explains how man was different starting in chapter 4.

BEFORE:
[Gen 1:26-31] Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Blessings from God for a man that is "very good".

[Gen 2:25] And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

"naked and not ashamed" ... literal and symbolic in that having been created without the stain of any sin, they were "very good" and had nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of.

AFTER:
[Gen 3:7-8]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

"knew they were naked" and "hid themselves" ... awareness that they are guilty and have reason to be ashamed, so they first try to cover their shame and then try to hide from God.

[Gen 4:7-8] "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

envy and rage and death are immediately added to the human condition ... all is not still "very good" as it was in Genesis 1.

[Gen 6:5-7] Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

"every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" ... here we have the modern condition of the natural man. It is far from "very good".

WHAT HAPPENED TO CHANGE THINGS FROM GENESIS 2 to GENESIS 4?
[Gen 2:8-9, 15-17] The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ... Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

God created a garden (good).
God placed man in the garden to tend it (good)
God gave the man one command (good: without a command, there is no opportunity to show love through obedience)

[Gen 3:6] When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Eve was deceived and Adam chose to disobey (bad).

[Gen 3:7] Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Their eyes were opened and they knew the shame of sin. (bad: the end of man being "very good")

[Gen 3:17-19] Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

God cursed Adam and all of creation. We are part of Adam and we are part of all of creation. The rest is, literally, history.

The Bible clearly states that we all are very "not good":

[Psalms 51:5] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

[Ecclesiastics 9:3] This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they [go] to the dead.

[John 2:24] But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

[John 3:19-20] "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Romans 3:10-12] as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

[Ephesians 2:1-3] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

CNKW3 · Jul 19, 2019

atpollard said:
BEFORE:

[Gen 1:26-31] Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Blessings from God for a man that is "very good".

[Gen 2:25] And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

"naked and not ashamed" ... literal and symbolic in that having been created without the stain of any sin, they were "very good" and had nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of.

they were good and still sinned. WHY DID THEY SIN? Will you answer that?

AFTER:

[Gen 3:7-8]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings. They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

"knew they were naked" and "hid themselves" ... awareness that they are guilty and have reason to be ashamed, so they first try to cover their shame and then try to hide from God.

Yes they knew they had done wrong. The question is......Why did they do wrong in the first place if they were perfect and very good?

[Gen 4:7-8] "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

envy and rage and death are immediately added to the human condition ... all is not still "very good" as it was in Genesis 1.

wait a minute? Did God just say.... IF you DO well? Does this mean we are required to DO WELL? Adam and Eve did not DO WELL. Cain did not DO WELL. Abel did DO WELL. How did Abel do well if the others didn’t? AFTER the so called “change”.

[Gen 6:5-7] Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

"every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" ... here we have the modern condition of the natural man. It is far from "very good".

the key part in all of that quote is this....”I will blot out man whom I HAVE CREATED. This is 1600 years of God creating man good (unless you say God created something bad) and he is now wanting to destroy them. Why? Because they have come to the point that all they want to do is choose sin. Adam chose sin, Cain chose sin, and on and on it goes. So where is the change?

WHAT HAPPENED TO CHANGE THINGS FROM GENESIS 2 to GENESIS 4?

[Gen 2:8-9, 15-17] The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. ... Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

God created a garden (good).

God placed man in the garden to tend it (good)

God gave the man one command (good: without a command, there is no opportunity to show love through obedience)

[Gen 3:6] When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

Eve was deceived and Adam chose to disobey (bad).

how did they do that? They were perfect. According to you it was only AFTER the change that man became BAD. You have the “change” before they ever sinned. Before they ever CHOSE to do bad. Just admit it...man has been the same since day one..the only thing that changed was their condition. They now had to work and no longer had access to the tree of life which means they would die which we all do whether we sin or not.

[Gen 3:7] Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

Their eyes were opened and they knew the shame of sin. (bad: the end of man being "very good")

you just made that up!! No where does it say that this was the end on them being good. They became bad because they chose sin. Just like everybody else. We become bad AT THE MOMENT we chose sin. If not why not?

[Gen 3:17-19] Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

God cursed Adam and all of creation. We are part of Adam and we are part of all of creation. The rest is, literally, history.

What was the curse? They would die and had to work the ground. That says nothing about their descendants being born BAD. It was a consequence for choosing sin. You need to now read Ez 18. Especially vs 20. This is the way it has been since day one. Man can inherit consequence but NOT guilt.

To be cont’d

CNKW3 · Jul 19, 2019

atpollard said:
The Bible clearly states that we all are very "not good":

[Psalms 51:5] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

David said he was CONCEIVED not BORN in iniquity.
Can that mean that he was.....
Conceived in a sinful world?
Or
That he was conceived in a sinful way? I could explain that further but don’t want to take the time.
Are either of these possible? I know you won’t answer and if you do it will not be truthfully. Because the whole world knows that this is right. It does not have to mean that he came out of the womb as a child sinful...you just inserted something that wasn’t there.

[Ecclesiastics 9:3] This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they [go] to the dead.

Does this include Adam? I don’t see him making an exception. All I see is an Old Testament version of Rom 3:23.
What did Isaiah say...”We like sheep have ALL GONE ASTRAY”. NOT born astray....You don’t like that one do you. It doesn’t support your false doctrine.

[John 2:24] But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,

what does this prove? Zero. Nice verse.

[John 3:19-20] "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Wait a minute! Men love darkness? It says... Everyone WHO DOES EVIL hates light. It does not say they were born hating light. The Bible says that all men choose sin. I will completely agree with that.

[Romans 3:10-12] as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

You have a contradiction here...
Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Were they righteous or not? I thought NOBODY is righteous. And this was even before the cross. No way???

You need to come to the truth and admit that your verse DOES NOT SAY what you claim it says...! Be honest.

[Ephesians 2:1-3] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! They were dead.....HOW? in their SINS! When did Adam and Eve sin? When they chose flesh over God. That is how we ALL are DEAD. We aren’t born that way. Thank you for that lovely and truth filled verse. Baptist will not admit that these seminaries of theirs have led them astray.

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
they were good and still sinned. WHY DID THEY SIN? Will you answer that?

Sure, because they had complete free will. They had neither the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide them in righteousness nor the “sin nature” that resulted from the curse on Adam.

Good is not Perfect. Only Christ was born Perfect without a “sin nature” and with the “Holy Spirit” guidance. That is why the first Adam (Adam) failed the test and the second Adam (Jesus) passed the test.

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
David said he was CONCEIVED not BORN in iniquity.
Can that mean that he was.....
Conceived in a sinful world?
Or
That he was conceived in a sinful way? I could explain that further but don’t want to take the time.
Are either of these possible? I know you won’t answer and if you do it will not be truthfully. Because the whole world knows that this is right. It does not have to mean that he came out of the womb as a child sinful...you just inserted something that wasn’t there.

Conceived ... Your parents should have explained this to you, but when a man and a woman are in love and get married, something magical happens. They get really close and the man places his “seed” into the womb of the woman where it joins with an “egg” in the woman’s womb. This union grows into a baby that is born about 40 weeks after the initial joining of the “seed” and “egg”. This union of the “seed” and “egg” is called “conception”.

Now try re-examining Psalm 51:5 ...

I was “brought forth” [H2342] in iniquity.

BROUGHT FORTH:

חוּל chûwl, khool; or חִיל chîyl; a primitive root; properly, to twist or whirl (in a circular or spiral manner), i.e. (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain (especially of a woman giving birth) or fear; figuratively, to wait, to pervert

INIQUITY:

עָוֺן ʻâvôn, aw-vone'; or עָווֹן ʻâvôwn; (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 [7]), from H5753; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil

In sin my mother “conceived” [H3179] me.

CONCEIVED:

יָחַם yâcham, yaw-kham'; a primitive root; probably to be hot; figuratively, to conceive: as in

[Gen 30:41 NASB] 41 Moreover, whenever the stronger of the flock were mating, Jacob would place the rods in the sight of the flock in the gutters, so that they might mate by the rods;
[Gen 31:10 NASB] 10 "And it came about at the time when the flock were mating that I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the male goats which were mating [were] striped, speckled, and mottled.
[Psa 51:5 NASB] 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

SIN:

חֵטְא chêṭᵉʼ, khate; from H2398; a crime or its penalty

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
Does this include Adam?

Come on ... is Adam a “son of men”? Was Adam born to a man and a woman?

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
what does this prove? Zero. Nice verse.

Jesus knows the heart of all men.
Jesus will not trust himself to the heart of men.
Yup, what could that POSSIBLY prove about the heart of men.

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
You have a contradiction here...

Not MY contradiction. I didn’t write the Bible.

I guess that you will just need to discard the Word of God and write your own, since YOU are the one claiming all God’s contradictions.

atpollard · Jul 19, 2019

CNKW3 said:
Baptist will not admit that these seminaries of theirs have led them astray.

I wouldn’t know. I never attended a seminary. I went to a Community College for an AA in Liberal Arts and Computer Science and to a University for a Bachelor of Architecture (B.Arch). Most of my “Bible training” came from an African missionary to the United States at the Church of God who explained the concept of Biblical Precepts and Typologies, and an adult Sunday School at an Evangelical Free Church taught by a graduate of Moody who finally explained to me the fancy terms for the stuff that I had been discussing like Calvinism, Arminianism, Credobaptism, and Soteriology.

It was an online test that told me that what I believed based on reading scripture had a name ... Reformed Baptist Theology. So I visited a Southern Baptist Church and learned about the Baptist Faith and Message (a pretty cool little booklet).

justbyfaith · Jul 19, 2019

As believers we are not under the law (Romans 6:14); and therefore what is written in Romans 3:10-18 (what the law says about those who are under it) is not true of us (Romans 3:19).

quietthinker · Jul 20, 2019

The unregenerate person wants eternal life as well as pleasing the carnal nature. His/her out is that he/she does not believe in salvation by works rather he/she believes in salvation by grace. He/she picks all the texts that support salvation by grace while ignoring the responsibility to live lawfully.... in so doing, he/she attempts to assuage his/her conscience.

The regenerate person instinctively knows that keeping God's Commandments is not optional. He/she asks God for guidance and wisdom in doing God's will and resists the carnal nature. God's Commandments are uncomplicated and straight forward....those ten words embrace God's character and his Spirit will bring all his children to conform to them because they are the laws of life.

To say that Jesus's Commandments are different to God's Commandments is nothing short of sleight of hand.

The tempter is ever whispering into the ears of God's children in particular, to drop their guard or to modify God's Commandments...his watchful eye takes advantage of any and every circumstance to get them to fall.

Resistance to sin requires choice and resolve and we are promised strength when we learn on God's unfailing arm. Self sufficiency is the formula for failure. The angels who fell; those who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion made a choice and were eventually resolved.
We can be certain that God did not let those angels go without a struggle just as he does not let men go without a struggle.
Those who were faithful to God made a choice and were also resolved. One choice delivers life and the other death.

This is clear and plain. Jesus tells us, don't be deceived, stay awake....keep your pencils sharp and your wicks trimmed; the sandman is around the corner.

justbyfaith · Jul 20, 2019

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The regenerated person is saved by grace and not by the works of the law, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16.

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Being saved by grace, this does not mean that the regenerated person will live an ungodly life, over that he is no longer focused on the law (Romans 6:14).

The believer was under the law once; but having come to faith, is no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25).

The regenerated person bears the fruit of the Spirit and there is no law that will condemn such behaviour as results from the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

Also, the Spirit is contrary to the flesh and this means that if someone is bearing the fruit of the Spirit, they are not going to operate in the works of the flesh; which are in violation of God's law (Galatians 5:16-24).

By the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20); and we also live a holy life not by an endeavor to keep the law but through the righteousness of faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Philippians 3:9).

If we are not living a holy life, the law will reveal that to us (Romans 3:20).

But the law cannot save anyone; except in that it shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24) and it thereby converts the soul of the sinner (Psalms 19:7 (kjv)) by pointing us to our need for Christ.

Soverign Grace · Jul 20, 2019

Zachary said:
“And we know that God causes everything to work together
for the good of those who love God and are called
according to his purpose for them.” (Romans 8:28)
These were predestined, called, justified, and glorified (8:29-30).

Those who truly love God obey Him by resisting temptations to sin!

“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation.
Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God
has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
Believers who endure temptation:
● love God
● chose to be obedient to Jesus (see below)
● will receive the crown of (eternal) life

“Temptation comes from our own desires,
which entice us and drag us away.
These desires give birth to sinful actions.
And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
So, don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters.” (James 1:14-16)
Believers who do NOT endure temptation:
● will fall into habitual sin
● will receive spiritual (eternal) death …
UNLESS they sincerely repent (stop their habitual sinning).

Those who really love Jesus obey Him
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them
are the ones who love Me.” (John 14:21)
“All who love Me will do what I say.” (John 14:23)
“Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me.” (John 14:24)
“When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love” (John 15:10)
“You are my friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
Who gets to heaven who does not love Jesus,
who is not His friend,
and who does not obey His commandments?

Slaves of sin -- OR -- slaves of obedience
“… if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?”
(Romans 6:16)

“… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:51)

“if you want to receive eternal life,
keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17)

“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments

have life with God. But there is NO (eternal) life in those

who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, which was quoted as Scripture by early
Christian leaders such as Irenaeus, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria)
.

Sometimes it's a mortal struggle to obey Christ in certain circumstances. I recently printed out a picture of a fishhook with the quote: "Satan knows what flavor to tempt you with" for younger people in our family. Satan always goes for the achilles heel.

justbyfaith · Jul 20, 2019

Soverign Grace said:
Sometimes it's a mortal struggle to obey Christ in certain circumstances. I recently printed out a picture of a fishhook with the quote: "Satan knows what flavor to tempt you with" for younger people in our family. Satan always goes for the achilles heel.

I wouldn't give that much glory to satan.

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Sure, because they had complete free will. They had neither the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide them in righteousness nor the “sin nature” that resulted from the curse on Adam.

Good is not Perfect. Only Christ was born Perfect without a “sin nature” and with the “Holy Spirit” guidance. That is why the first Adam (Adam) failed the test and the second Adam (Jesus) passed the test.

So Adam had free will untainted and still sinned. But now we don’t have free will but still sin? That makes ZERO sense. The truth is we both have free will and we both choose to follow after the desires of the flesh and that becomes sin.

Good is not perfect? What about “very good”. That’s what you said they were. “Very good” is better then just good. And why weren’t they “perfect”? They were created by God without your “sin nature” and placed in the garden next to the tree of life. They were as perfect as perfect can get. They could have lived forever.
They sinned because they chose sin just like you and I. The only one who hasn’t chosen sin was Christ. It has NOTHING to do with your “sin nature”.

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Conceived ... Your parents should have explained this to you, but when a man and a woman are in love and get married, something magical happens. They get really close and the man places his “seed” into the womb of the woman where it joins with an “egg” in the woman’s womb. This union grows into a baby that is born about 40 weeks after the initial joining of the “seed” and “egg”. This union of the “seed” and “egg” is called “conception”.

Now try re-examining Psalm 51:5 ...

I was “brought forth” [H2342] in iniquity.

BROUGHT FORTH:

חוּל chûwl, khool; or חִיל chîyl; a primitive root; properly, to twist or whirl (in a circular or spiral manner), i.e. (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain (especially of a woman giving birth) or fear; figuratively, to wait, to pervert

INIQUITY:

עָוֺן ʻâvôn, aw-vone'; or עָווֹן ʻâvôwn; (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 [7]), from H5753; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil

In sin my mother “conceived” [H3179] me.

CONCEIVED:

יָחַם yâcham, yaw-kham'; a primitive root; probably to be hot; figuratively, to conceive: as in

[Gen 30:41 NASB] 41 Moreover, whenever the stronger of the flock were mating, Jacob would place the rods in the sight of the flock in the gutters, so that they might mate by the rods;

[Gen 31:10 NASB] 10 "And it came about at the time when the flock were mating that I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream, and behold, the male goats which were mating [were] striped, speckled, and mottled.

[Psa 51:5 NASB] 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

SIN:

חֵטְא chêṭᵉʼ, khate; from H2398; a crime or its penalty

To conceive is to get pregnant.
Lk 1:31. What did the Spirit say to Mary...you will conceive in your womb.
In sin my mother conceived (got pregnant or planned to) me.
To be brought forth in iniquity?
Can this mean he was....
Born into a sinful world?
Born into a sinful union? The pregnancy of Judah and Tamar is a few generations past. That caused problems for their family. Read Dt 23:2
You say it has to mean he had inherited some sin somewhere when the text does not even allude to anything like it. It’s a complete abuse of scripture.
When David’s son died he got up to go worship because he said he would go to the child the child would never return to him. I guess David was looking forward to going to hell to follow his sin filled baby.

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Come on ... is Adam a “son of men”? Was Adam born to a man and a woman?

Of course, Adam was called the first man. Real man didn’t start with Cain and Abel. God creates ALL men. Ecco 7:29
What about Christ? He was called a son of man? Was his heart full of evil? Was Noah’s heart full of evil? Was Moses heart full of evil. We Re told Moses was faithful in all his house. Heb 3:5.
Adam was also called the son of God. How could “the son of God” choose sin? Because he chose the desires of the flesh over Gods will just like we do.

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Jesus knows the heart of all men.
Jesus will not trust himself to the heart of men.
Yup, what could that POSSIBLY prove about the heart of men.

Have no clue what you are saying here or how it proves your point about being born in sin..

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
Not MY contradiction. I didn’t write the Bible.

I guess that you will just need to discard the Word of God and write your own, since YOU are the one claiming all God’s contradictions.

Oh...so now it’s the Bible that has a problem and not your interpretation! And people call me arrogant. I would NEVER go so far as to take that position.
I showed you where the Bible called people righteous but you don’t like it because it goes against your false teaching.

CNKW3 · Jul 22, 2019

atpollard said:
I wouldn’t know. I never attended a seminary. I went to a Community College for an AA in Liberal Arts and Computer Science and to a University for a Bachelor of Architecture (B.Arch). Most of my “Bible training” came from an African missionary to the United States at the Church of God who explained the concept of Biblical Precepts and Typologies, and an adult Sunday School at an Evangelical Free Church taught by a graduate of Moody who finally explained to me the fancy terms for the stuff that I had been discussing like Calvinism, Arminianism, Credobaptism, and Soteriology.

It was an online test that told me that what I believed based on reading scripture had a name ... Reformed Baptist Theology. So I visited a Southern Baptist Church and learned about the Baptist Faith and Message (a pretty cool little booklet).

Yea, I know. I’ve read it. There’s nothing thats cool about it. It taught you that it’s harder to get into the baptist church then to get into heaven.

Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

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