Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

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justbyfaith

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When we were conceived in sin, and brought forth into iniquity, it means just that: that we were born sinners.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord, Romans 3:23.

Babies are the exception to "all"?

I don't think so.
 
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Zachary

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The unregenerate person wants eternal life as well as pleasing the carnal nature. His/her out is that he/she does not believe in salvation by works rather he/she believes in salvation by grace. He/she picks all the texts that support salvation by grace while ignoring the responsibility to live lawfully.... in so doing, he/she attempts to assuage his/her conscience.
I do not believe that only the unregenerate have been
deceived by grace-only, hyper-grace, etc. (i.e. OSAS).
I believe many BACs have been deceived by Satan also!

That's why many Spirit-filled believers on the Internet
have been crying, "The church is FAST ASLEEP!"
.
 

justbyfaith

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OSAS really isn't that far off from the truth...but the true reality is POTS.

The only problem with OSAS is that it teaches that you can be saved and continue to be saved even in your sins.

POTS teaches that the Lord will preserve you in holiness.
 

justbyfaith

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You're ignorant when it comes to Satan's effect
upon the world and upon God's people!
.

All I'm saying is, he doesn't know off-hand what flavour to tempt us with. He has to study us to find that answer.
 

atpollard

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So Adam had free will untainted and still sinned. But now we don’t have free will but still sin? That makes ZERO sense.
Sure it makes sense.
  • A man named Adam (no relation) does not have a genetic propensity to alcoholism. Is it possible for Adam to still choose to drink to excess and become an Alcoholic? Why yes it is.
  • Several generations later, through bad breeding, all of Adams Great-Great-Great-Grandchildren have a strong genetic predisposition to Alcoholism. Do the Adam's decedents have a choice to be born without the genetic predisposition to alcoholism? No, they do not. Can Adam's decedents still become the town drunk just like Adam did? Yes, they can.
  • Does it make ZERO sense for both Adam and his decedents to all become drunks when Adam was not born with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism? No ... it makes perfect sense. Adams free will choice set his children and their children on a downward spiral that they were born into. Only AA (which admits we have a problem and calls on a HIGHER POWER to fix it) can break the downward spiral.
Now does it make sense?
 

atpollard

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I guess David was looking forward to going to hell to follow his sin filled baby.
Oops. I thought we were having an honest conversation with different opinions. I see that I was wrong.

David will go to the GRAVE like his child is in the GRAVE, but his child will not return from the GRAVE to the land of the LIVING.

I quit. You win.
 

atpollard

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So, that's where you learned some of your erroneous theology,
such as OSAS and cessationism.
OSAS is Perseverance of the Saints ... as in Those God has Justified, God has Glorified (Rom 8:29-30) and God will finish what God started (Phil 1:6) and the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our inheritance (Eph 1:13-14) and Jesus promised to raise those that the Father draws (John 6:44) and I am secure between the hand of the Father and the hand of the Son (John 10:27-29) ... therefore my faith is a living faith (James 2:14-17) and I am pleased to walk in the good works that God has prepared for me to do (Eph 2:10).
If that is "erroneous theology", it is the Orthodox 'erroneous' Theology of the Apostles, so I am content with that.

Since I attend a Pentecostal Church, I have no idea where you got the idea that I am a cessationist. I have heard all the arguments, but frankly, anyone who thinks that the assembling of the New Testament is the "coming of the Perfect" is looking at the wrong Word ... it is the Word made flesh that is Perfect, so the Gifts are no longer needed when we join Him or Jesus returns to us. That has not happened yet.

PS. The best thing I learned from the Southern Baptists was a concept they call "already and not yet".
 

Zachary

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OSAS is Perseverance of the Saints ... as in Those God has Justified, God has Glorified (Rom 8:29-30) and God will finish what God started (Phil 1:6) and the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our inheritance (Eph 1:13-14) ...
I only got as far as this.
Ephesians was written to "the faithful" and NOT to the unfaithful.
Even if Paul assumed they were ALL faithful, my comment stands.
,
 

Windmillcharge

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Below (in blue) is what you posted:

"As salvation is a free gift, who gets that gift is under the control of the giver.

Those who have recieved the gift want it and a relationship with Jesus so they will naturaly want to obey him as an expression of their love for him
."

First, God, the gift Giver, does not decided for men which men will or will not receive HIs free gift of grace, then those that first receive grace THEN obey. Men who of their own free will choose to conditonally obey God are the recipients of God's gift.

Those who follow Luther's "faith only" philosophy get it backwards. In order to provide cover for Luther's 'faith only' they try and find a way for a man to first unconditionally receive God's grace THEN one can obey.

When the Bible has obedience to God's will comes FIRST since it is a necessary condition that must be met BEFORE one receives God free gift of grace:

Bible:-----conditionally obey first>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then receive grace
Luther:---unconditionally receive grace first>>>>>>>>>>>then obey

The bible says in eph2:
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

God saves us, and it is God who gives us spiritual gifts as 1 Cor12:
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.> 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,”> except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
 

CNKW3

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Sure it makes sense.
  • A man named Adam (no relation) does not have a genetic propensity to alcoholism. Is it possible for Adam to still choose to drink to excess and become an Alcoholic? Why yes it is.
  • Several generations later, through bad breeding, all of Adams Great-Great-Great-Grandchildren have a strong genetic predisposition to Alcoholism. Do the Adam's decedents have a choice to be born without the genetic predisposition to alcoholism? No, they do not. Can Adam's decedents still become the town drunk just like Adam did? Yes, they can.
  • Does it make ZERO sense for both Adam and his decedents to all become drunks when Adam was not born with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism? No ... it makes perfect sense. Adams free will choice set his children and their children on a downward spiral that they were born into. Only AA (which admits we have a problem and calls on a HIGHER POWER to fix it) can break the downward spiral.
Now does it make sense?
“All of Adams grandchildren”. This is a false analogy and you know it’s not true. I have a good friend whose dad is an alcoholic. He has NEVER touched a drink. You know why? Because his dad is an alcoholic.
But, do children inherit the consequence of their parents bad decisions? Yes. All the time. But what we are talking about is GUILT not consequence. If someone’s dad was a criminal and in jail at the time of their birth, should we throw the child in jail as well? This is what your position teaches. Because Adam sinned the rest of the world comes out guilty having actually committed no crime but being born. Since when is being born a sin against God.
 

CNKW3

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Oops. I thought we were having an honest conversation with different opinions. I see that I was wrong.

David will go to the GRAVE like his child is in the GRAVE, but his child will not return from the GRAVE to the land of the LIVING.

I quit. You win.
All I did was make application of your position. An honest application.
David said...I shall go to him.
You really think “the grave” was all David had in mind? Why did David get up and worship? Don’t you think David expects to one day be with the lord?
An honest question? Where do you think the baby is today?
If you are being honest with your position you will say hell. I say heaven because the baby, though brought forth in iniquity, was born pure having committed no sin.
 

atpollard

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All I did was make application of your position. An honest application.
David said...I shall go to him.
You really think “the grave” was all David had in mind? Why did David get up and worship? Don’t you think David expects to one day be with the lord?
An honest question? Where do you think the baby is today?
If you are being honest with your position you will say hell. I say heaven because the baby, though brought forth in iniquity, was born pure having committed no sin.
No, you built a strawman from my position.
I am not God, so who gets to go to Heaven is a question above my pay grade.

What do you make of God’s statement before the Great Flood of Noah ... did he forget to say “except those cute little toddlers”? At what age does the infant go from sinless to damned? This is your pandora’s box, I just wonder if you have really thought through your position.
 

atpollard

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“All of Adams grandchildren”. This is a false analogy and you know it’s not true. I have a good friend whose dad is an alcoholic. He has NEVER touched a drink. You know why? Because his dad is an alcoholic.
But, do children inherit the consequence of their parents bad decisions? Yes. All the time. But what we are talking about is GUILT not consequence. If someone’s dad was a criminal and in jail at the time of their birth, should we throw the child in jail as well? This is what your position teaches. Because Adam sinned the rest of the world comes out guilty having actually committed no crime but being born. Since when is being born a sin against God.
Sorry for trying to make an honest attempt at an analogy when I thought you were really trying to communicate. “Sin” is more powerful than “alcoholism” ... As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." [Rom 3:10-12 NLT]
 

CNKW3

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No, you built a strawman from my position.
I am not God, so who gets to go to Heaven is a question above my pay grade.

What do you make of God’s statement before the Great Flood of Noah ... did he forget to say “except those cute little toddlers”? At what age does the infant go from sinless to damned? This is your pandora’s box, I just wonder if you have really thought through your position.
Who was held accountable for disobedience in the wilderness? Everybody?
Who got to go into the promised land? Those who were 20 and under. God made a distinction and now you say that it’s some Pandora’s box that a child is not held responsible for their actions because of their lack of understanding and immaturity.
Why would the young in Noah’s day have been any different then the young in the day of Moses? God didn’t hold them responsible in the wilderness then why in the days of Noah?
Also. 1 pet 3 says that 8 souls were saved by water. Saved from what? The flood. That is a true statement. Those who were obedient did not die in the flood. It DOES NOT say anything about their eternal salvation now does it?
 

CNKW3

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Sorry for trying to make an honest attempt at an analogy when I thought you were really trying to communicate. “Sin” is more powerful than “alcoholism” ... As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." [Rom 3:10-12 NLT]
You are misusing this passage like everyone else.
You brought up Noah. Does the Bible describe Noah like you just did above?
No! Here is how it describes him....
“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:9‬ ‭
I could show you others that were also described as righteous.
Nobody is righteous without God. Nobody is righteous in and of themselves. Why was Noah just? He walked with God. Why is anybody described as righteous? It’s because they are obedient servants. Not because they have never sinned.
 
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CNKW3

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At what age does the infant go from sinless to damned? This is your pandora’s box, I just wonder if you have really thought through your position.
Of course I’ve thought this through. I’m in the process of raising 2 kids. One is 17 and the other is 11. Just the other day I was having a bible study with my 11 year old. I was taking an Old Testament lesson and making application to us today. (Already forgot what it was). Nothing real difficult.
But my 11 year old didn’t get it. I tried 3 times and he did not understand. I know that he is not ready to obey the gospel because right now he doesn’t get it. He would be doing it for show. Now, my 17 year old does get it. So right there I can know that within my household that age lies somewhere between 11 and 17. Everybody matures differently in their ability to comprehend. I know of two people who obeyed the gospel and were baptized at age 10. Both did it again later in life because they realized they were too young and didn’t fully understand what they were doing.