Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

tigger 2 · Jul 22, 2019

justbyfaith wrote above (1585): "One of the primary scriptures is the scripture that says that the name of the Son will be called among other things the everlasting Father."
.................................
Even trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally "God"!

Therefore, since we obviously cannot take "Eternal Father" at Is. 9:6 in the literal sense to mean that Jesus is the Father, we cannot take the rest of that same name (esp. `Mighty God') in its literal highest sense and say that Jesus is Mighty God, etc., either.

Another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young's and Strong's) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today's Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those "minor" words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name "Elimelech" (which is literally just "God King") means "God of (the) King." Young's Analytical Concordance says it means "God is King." Today's Dictionary of the Bible says it means " God his king" - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

I think most of us would choose Young's translation. But I hope no one would say that since it is his personal name, it must be that he IS God and King!! (Compare the meaning of other Israelite names - Elihu, Abijah, Elijah, etc.) I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:

"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

And,

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a]"The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."

Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."

These renderings are more in line with translations of other Israelite names, and more in line with the fact that the Father is not the Son.

justbyfaith · Jul 22, 2019

tigger 2 said:
Even trinitarians do not confuse the two separate persons of the Father and the Son. They do not say the Son is the Father. They say the Father and the Son are two separate individual persons who are equally "God"!

Actually, the Trinitarian creeds do not present Father and Son as separate but as distinct.

tigger 2 said:
and more in line with the fact that the Father is not the Son.

It is my belief that the Father is not the Son; which does not mean that the reverse isn't true, that the Son is the Father.

The latter statement is indeed true.

As for the rest of your post, I find that you are seeking to take us down a road in which we go from one translation to another; until we finally come to the translation that is acceptable to you as a non-Trinitarian. As we walk down this road, the understanding of the original scripture (which says that Jesus is the everlasting Father) gets more and more blurred until, finally, the heretical concept is acceptable in the sight of the reader.

In other words, you have to keep changing the meaning of what the scripture says until the final meaning that you are aiming for appears to be acceptable. But if you went from the original rendering of the verse over to the final destination on the road, the change that has developed is not so acceptable.

justbyfaith · Jul 22, 2019

And also, in the final estimation of what you believe the verse says, you have taken out completely the concept of "His name shall be called" as referring to the name of "the son that was given."

If you put this statement ahead of your estimation of what the verse finally means, it simply does not fit.

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

changes to:

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [is] The mighty God, [and] The everlasting Father, [of] The Prince of Peace.

It just goes to show that even adding a few prepositions can change the entire meaning of scripture.

(This perversion is not found in any known translation).

It is one of the primary reasons I am kjv-superior/only in my understanding of what Bible translations to use.

I believe that God, in His sovereignty, love, and Omnipotence, was capable preserving, and motivated to preserve, the unadulterated message of the whole counsel of God as it is given to us in the kjv.

He indeed did it: the kjv is the authorized standard for us in the English language.

justbyfaith · Jul 22, 2019

This should be easily evidenced by the fact that those who want to deny basic tenets of the holy scriptures (such as the Trinity)...go to other translations and also appeal to alternative meanings that seem acceptable in the original Greek.

However, these are always amateur Greek scholars; they are not experts as were the people who translated the kjv into the English language.

Many of them are not born again; as evidence by the fact that they do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ: and therefore they do not have the Holy Ghost and cannot put the proper prayer and effort into translating the Bible correctly according to sound doctrine.

It should be clear from John 8:24 that the same people will die in their sins. So why would anyone follow them?

101G · Jul 23, 2019

brakelite said:
One spirit...one faith...one baptism...
So, yes. The same Spirit, for God is spirit God shared His spirit with His Son, who in turn shares that same spirit with us. The spirit is the mind of God. The life giving power of God. That which infuses life and sustenance to the person...but no doubt more than that also as we do not fully understand the spirit nor how it works. So when we speak pf having the spirit of God abiding within, we are speaking of Christ Himself, His mind, having the mind of Christ abiding within. The same mind of the Father..."I pray that they may be one, as you and I are one". We cannot be one with the Father and Son in precisely the same manner which binds Father and Son in nature, but we can be one in mind...in thought...in motive...in worldview so to speak. Let this mind be in you...the mind of Christ was the mind of the Father.

GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the reply. second, you said, "So, yes. The same Spirit, for God is spirit God shared His spirit with His Son". thank you. now this,
Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me". was not the Son sent? and you said that it was a "SHARED" Spirit. so the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father was sent?. please tell us who was sent? remember, you said that the Spirit of Christ is the same Spirit as the Father.

PICJAG.

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
so Jesus was conceived,
PICJAG.

No. Mary was "conceived"... ie pregnant.

Glory to God,
Taken

101G · Jul 23, 2019

Taken said:
No. Mary was "conceived"... ie pregnant.

Glory to God,
Taken

(smile). so who was Mary pregnant by? or who is the Father of her child?

PICJAG

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
are you sure? the Son of Man was not conceived in Mary's womb,

Correct. Jesus was not conceived. (Pregnant).
Mary was made to be conceived. (Pregnant).

nor was the Son of man Born.

Incorrect.
When a woman is conceived (Pregnant) and a "THING" comes forth out of her womb. That "THING" is called "Born of a woman".

When "A "THING" came forth out of God (in Heaven) .... That "THING" was called "Born of God".

John.16
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 1
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
(smile). so who was Mary pregnant by? or who is the Father of her child?

PICJAG

Mary was MADE Conceived (Pregnant) By the POWER of God, TO SEND HIS SEED TO MARYS VIRGIN WOMB.

Gods SEED, DOES NOT mix with or fertilize HUMAN SEEDS.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
THIS IS TRUE, AND HE'S THE SAME PERSON IN ISAIAH 44:24.

PICJAG.

so now is the Spirit of Christ the SAME Spirit?

PICJAG.

God is ONE Spirit, with certain aspects of His Spirit attending to particular things.

1 Cor 12

[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Glory to God,
Taken

101G · Jul 23, 2019

Taken said:
Mary was MADE Conceived (Pregnant) By the POWER of God, TO SEND HIS SEED TO MARYS VIRGIN WOMB.

Gods SEED, DOES NOT mix with or fertilize HUMAN SEEDS.

Glory to God,
Taken

First thanks for the reply, second, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost".

is not the one who is the conceiver the "Father"? YES or NO.

third, Acts 2:30 "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, (WHICH IS MARY), he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne". who is it that sits on David throne?

PICJAG

101G · Jul 23, 2019

Taken said:
God is ONE Spirit, with certain aspects of His Spirit attending to particular things.

1 Cor 12

[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Glory to God,
Taken

this is what we're speaking the term "GOD". God is ONE Spirit correct, but the "PERSONS" in the Spirit are supposed to be separate, correct. Scripture, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".

I would like to ask all trinitarians the Spirit, God here are all three persons right? anyone can answer.

PICJAG.

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
(smile). so who was Mary pregnant by? or who is the Father of her child?

PICJAG

God has no Literal Father that reproduces offspring BY His SEED fertilizing a humans SEED.

Gods Seed is within Him. God sent forth His SEED to the Virgin womb of a women.

Once Gods SEED was in the woman's Womb...
According to the Law of nature (which for mankind Is; a Baby will come forth from a woman's womb after Nine months).

According to Jewish Law, the husband of a Jewish woman, is the Jewish Legal father of the Baby.

According to Roman Law, the husband of a woman, is the Roman Legal father of the Baby.

According to God in Heaven...He said He would be A Father TO Jesus when He was to come into THIS World.

Heb 1
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The answer to your question IS dependent upon CONTEXT of which Jurisdictial Law you wish to satisfy.

Jewish Law...Joseph is Jesus' legal father.

Roman Law...Joseph is Jesus' legal father.

Gods Law...once Jesus was revealed in the Flesh On Earth, "God in Heaven" is Jesus' Father....And...."Abraham Is His Earthly father."

Once an Individual man goes Through Jesus believing Jesus IS the Christ...that man receives the SEED of God.

Thereafter THAT (IN Christ) MAN'S ....
Father lawfully according to mans LAW is the man who fertilized (conception) the mother's egg, (in the woman's Fallopian tube (not the womb) typically through natural copulation, and the woman, then, (pregnant) conceived in the womb.
A natural man with a natural Earthly father.

Thereafter also, the SEED of God enters a mans "new" (circumcised) heart...where a mans old natural spirit (TRUTH), is born of a New spirit Gods TRUTH ).
A natural man, MADE, A son of Thee Heavenly God.

Thereafter also, THAT MAN, By Gods Promise,
Becomes a son of Abraham.

In context...A mans Entitlement AND Inheritance, depends ON who All a mans "father" lawfully IS...(according to mans LAW and Gods Law.)

Glory to God,
Taken

tigger 2 · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the reply. second, you said, "So, yes. The same Spirit, for God is spirit God shared His spirit with His Son". thank you. now this,
Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me". was not the Son sent? and you said that it was a "SHARED" Spirit. so the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father was sent?. please tell us who was sent? remember, you said that the Spirit of Christ is the same Spirit as the Father.

PICJAG.

Isaiah 48:16

Isaiah, like most other Bible writers, often interspersed the conversation of one person with statements by others and often doesn't identify the new speakers. Very often they appear to be comments by Isaiah himself.

That this is very likely the case here is shown, not only by context, but by these Bible translations: The RSV and the NIV Bibles show by quotation marks and indenting that Isaiah himself made the final comment in Is. 48:16.

Quotation marks in NLT, ESV, TEV, Tanakh, Holman Christian Standard Bible, ICB, New Century Version, and THE MESSAGE also show the last part of Is.48:16 to be a new speaker (not Jehovah).

The NAB (1970 and 1991 versions) also indicates a new speaker there, and, in the St. Joseph edition of the NAB, a footnote for Is. 48:16 tells us that the final statement was made by Cyrus! And the very trinitarian Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version, World Bible Translation Center, 1992, comes right out and says at Is. 48:16,

" 'Come here and listen to me! ... from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.' "

The New English Bible (NEB), The Revised English Bible (REB), and the Bible translation by Dr. James Moffatt (Mo) consider the last statement of Is. 48:16 to be spurious and leave it out of their translations entirely.

Certainly these mostly trinitarian translations would have rendered this scripture (and punctuated it accordingly) to show a two-Jehovah meaning (or given such an alternate rendering in the footnotes) if their trinitarian translators had thought there was even the slightest justification for such an interpretation! (Also analyze Jer. 51:19 - Jacob is the former of all things - Jehovah of hosts is his name, according to this trinitarian-type "speaker confusion" reasoning!)

Taken · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
this is what we're speaking the term "GOD". God is ONE Spirit correct,

Yes, God IS ONE Spirit.

but the "PERSONS" in the Spirit are supposed to be separate, correct. Scripture, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters".

I would like to ask all trinitarians the Spirit, God here are all three persons right? anyone can answer.

PICJAG.

Hi PICJAG ~

Think in the NATURAL concering man...

Man has a brain, Which has many functions...

Man has a mind, Which gathers information, thinks, ciphers makes logical conclusion.

Man has a heart, Which has several functions... also feels, has thoughts, has a mans natural spirit (truth).

Man has a flesh, bones, nerves, organs, which each have several functions...

God is Spirit, Complex, like man, IS ONE THING, with Multiple parts that DO MULTIPLE things....

When God SPEAKS...you could give credit to His Voice, His Power....or you could give credit to the "WORD" that comes forth out of Gods mouth....Which IS WHAT GOD says TO DO... and has given us A NAME, and multiple TITLES, to Call His WORD, that has come forth out of HIS Mouth.

God has given;
HIS WORD, a NAME, TITLES.
HIS SEED, a TITLE.
HIS SPIRIT, TITLES

We as humans do the same....
On this forum, you call YOUR WORD...101G
You go by multiple names/titles, that applies for certain people to use when addressing You.
And...still you are ONLY ONE MAN.

No matter how many Names or Titles God reveals to call Him...He is still ONLY ONE God.

Spirit of Knowledge,
Spirit of Truth,
Spirit of Power/might,
Spirit of the Lord,
Spirit of Wisdom,
Spirit of Counsel,
Spirit of Fear....

ALL the SAME ONE God.

Glory to God,
Taken

brakelite · Jul 23, 2019

101G said:
Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me". was not the Son sent?

The Son was sent, yes, but Isaiah 48:16 isn't the Son saying, Hath sent me. That appears to me to be Isaiah speaking... The Lord God and His Spirit Hath sent me.

justbyfaith · Jul 23, 2019

1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Jesus is the Lord:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

There is one Lord:

Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

That Lord is the Father:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The Father is the Lord:

Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There is one Lord:

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

John 10:30, I and my Father are one.

It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.

Part II:

There is one God according to scripture.

Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD:

James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That one God is, the Father:

James 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Romans 15:6, That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Ephesians 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now in Malachi 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal every man treacherously against his brother, by profaning the covenants of our fathers?

Jesus is the everlasting Father:

Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

He is specifically defined as the Son pertaining to the flesh.

Hebrews 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Romans 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Isaiah 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and is thus a distinct Person from the Father, since He is a Man, in the flesh.

The Father inhabiteth eternity:

Isaiah 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is holy; I dwell in a high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

He descended into time and then ascended back up into eternity:

Ephesians 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Therefore there are two Persons...who are also the same Person, though the 2nd Person has experiential knowledge of being human and also is human...dwelling in eternity.

God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

He also did not vacate eternity when He descended; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells there, they are there eternally.

So God did the impossible in the descending, see Luke 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

After having lived one eternal moment, He descended into time and became flesh and dwelt among us:

Ephesians 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

From the Son's perspective it has already happened. From the Father's (experiential) perspective it has yet to happen.

justbyfaith · Jul 23, 2019

Now, the Holy Ghost.

There is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He is the Holy Ghost:

John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He (the Father, even the Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Jesus:

John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):

Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Again, there is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

That Spirit is Jesus:

Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Ephesians 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith: that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

A person cannot have the Son and therefore have life unless He is a Spirit come to dwell in them; and yet it is clear from scripture that He is come in the flesh:

(the short version), 2 John 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Therefore Jesus is both come in the flesh (as the Son) and also the Son is a Spirit (1 John 5:12, above) that comes to dwell within us. This Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Ghost; even Jesus Christ, the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

And Jesus is also a human being, come in the flesh, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as YHWH.

And He also is the great "I will be who I will be".

He reveals Himself in different capacities to Israel under the name YHWH with an adjective placed after His name.

Examples of this are YHWH-Tsidkenuh, YHWH-shalom, YHWH-rapha, and YHWH-jireh.

(The LORD our righteous banner, the LORD our peace, the LORD our healer, the LORD our provider).

When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).

Jesus Christ has always been our salvation, even before the incarnation.

Thus Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; because before the incarnation He was the Father, and the Father's name is Jesus Christ as He is now revealed to us.

Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There is one name to be baptized under, and that is the name of Jesus Christ:

Acts 4:10,12, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. This is the stone that was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

For baptism does have the power to save:

1 Peter 3:20-21, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

While baptism does not put away fleshly filth, it does wash away sins:

Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is the only way to salvation; after you know who the Lord is, of course: baptism in titles won't cut it.

Acts 2:39, For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Therefore if you are called, you will fulfill the condition of the promise (the promise is the Holy Ghost; and the condition is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins).

Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Finally, if you are not called, then you were never predestinated, you will not be justified, and you will not be glorified (if you are predestinated and have not been baptized, then you will be baptized with Acts 2:38 salvation at some point in the future):

Romans 8:30, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I would encourage you with the following words:

Matthew 7:7-8, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I would also point out the following:

Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Deuteronomy 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

101G · Jul 24, 2019

GINOLJC, to all.
Thanks for the replies.

tigger 2 said:
Isaiah, like most other Bible writers, often interspersed the conversation of one person with statements by others and often doesn't identify the new speakers. Very often they appear to be comments by Isaiah himself.

brakelite said:
The Son was sent, yes, but Isaiah 48:16 isn't the Son saying, Hath sent me. That appears to me to be Isaiah speaking... The Lord God and His Spirit Hath sent me.

justbyfaith said:
Now, the Holy Ghost.

There is one Spirit:

Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And He is the Father:

John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He is the Holy Ghost:

John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

ON, and ON. quit running around in circle. LISTEN. let's just reveal our Lord Jesus.
THIS TERM "GOD" as Justbyfaith have said, needs to be cleared up. because many christian who get caught say, "Well God here means this person, no that person. well the person issue is over.

scripture, Isaiah 28:9 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
ok, it's time to get off the similac. lets reveal this term God.
Acts 2:32 "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses". here the apostle Peter makes it very clear as to who raised our Lord Jesus right. well let's see who this "GOD" is that Raise up Jesus body. John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body". so it was JESUS who raised up his body. JESUS is GOD. then one might say well he's GOD the SON. let's see.
this is a GREAT ERROR, God the Son. it's just a title, and not a PERSON. as said in John 2 above, they only saw the house/Temple that he, God dwelt in, exterior "morphe". understand, our Lord is the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of himself in flesh. lets break it down for you in simpler terms. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". this is one of the most "diversified" verse in the bible. but here's the revelation. this "In the beginning" here that John is speaking about is when the Spirit, the Holy Spirit took on flesh as a man. lets prove this out.

1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

". STOP ARE THERE TWO ETERNAL LIFE.... NO, IT'S THE SAME LIFE

now think, John was not at the beginning, not at Genesis 1:1 beginning. but what was at Genesis 1:1 (the Spirit, God the Holy Spirit... THAT ETERNAL LIFE 1 John1:2 spoke of) is now made Manifested, how, by manifesting in flesh. and who Manifested in flesh? God, the Spirit, "JESUS", BINGO.

see, that's JESUS at Genesis 1:1 in Spirit FORM which no Man have see. but at John 1:1 what was not seen before at Genesis 1:1 is now made visible at John 1:1, this is Jesus "diversified" or manifested in flesh, in fashion as a man, per phil 2:7-8. but notice it said, he was "WITH" the Father. with here means the same person, here's why. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". here, one person is "first" and "WITH" the Last. now listen, the same first "with" the last. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. BINGO. he, one PERSON, is FIRST and "also" the LAST. but he was "WITH", meaning it's the same person. BINGO again. so the WORD in John 1:1 that was, was, was, "WITH" GOD is GOD. and Peter said it was God who raised up Jesus, who is God.

Now, lets crack another nut while we're at it. Jesus is that eternal Life, listen to 1 John 1:2 again "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

". THAT ETERNAL LIFE? ..... listen, John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". the ONLY TRUE GOD IS JESUS CHRIST "DIVERSIFIED" OR MANIFESTED IN FLESH AS 1 JOHN 1:1 & 2 STATES. now, listen to John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". BINGO again. JESUS IS THAT LIFE MENTION IN 1 JOHN 1:1 & 2. Jesus himself just told you the TRUTH. he Just told you that he's THAT "LIFE"............ GOD. many people say Jesus never said that he's God, oh yes he did in so may ways, but we're ignorant to what he is saying.

this is not hard is it to understand. WE SUGGEST YOU COPY THIS POST TO YOUR WP AND TAKE YOUR TIME IN READING IT.

PICJAG.

justbyfaith · Jul 24, 2019

It is Ephesians 4:10 that tells us that He who descended also ascended to fill all things.

He who was outside of time (Isaiah 57:15) descended into time and then ascended to be outside of time once again.

That makes two Persons who are the same Person, existing outside of time.

Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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