The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

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JohnPaul

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We only pray to Mary or other saints to pray FOR us.
We don't worship them.

When you ask a fellow Christian here on earth to pray for you - you are praying TO them to pray for you.
This is NO DIFFERENT than asking a saint in Heaven to pray for you. "Pray" simply means to "ask".

In fact, "worship" is a secondary - not the PRIMARY definition of "Pray".

"It is finished" (John 19.30) is such an important truth, right? The truth of the one offering in Hebrews chapters 9 & 10 is so important, right?

Why is asking Mary to pray for us different than this verse of scripture?

"Brethren, pray for us." I Thess 5:25

Do we not presume that the mother of Jesus still lives... that she was saved and now will never die? Therefore are those who are not with us walking in the flesh on planet Earth unable to hear us?

This forum has a sub-forum named the "Prayer Forum". Why does anyone post there asking others to pray for them?

What about this verse?

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:" James 5:14

And this one?

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

If it was all "finished" on the cross, why would Paul and James have been inspired by God to write these verses?

Then again look at these verses:

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go." John 11:43-44


Why when Jesus called him forth from the tomb did he then ask the people to loose him from his graveclothes? It would seem to me that in spite of the gift of God, something is still expected from men. Jesus purposely did not do everything.
Why is asking Mary to pray for us different than this verse of scripture?

"Brethren, pray for us." I Thess 5:25

Do we not presume that the mother of Jesus still lives... that she was saved and now will never die? Therefore are those who are not with us walking in the flesh on planet Earth unable to hear us?

This forum has a sub-forum named the "Prayer Forum". Why does anyone post there asking others to pray for them?

What about this verse?

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:" James 5:14

And this one?

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

If it was all "finished" on the cross, why would Paul and James have been inspired by God to write these verses?

Then again look at these verses:

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go." John 11:43-44


Why when Jesus called him forth from the tomb did he then ask the people to loose him from his graveclothes? It would seem to me that in spite of the gift of God, something is still expected from men. Jesus purposely did not do everything.
Thank you all for your responses, I always thought when someone prays to the Blessed Mother, it was for her to intercede, not to pray for us.
 

JohnPaul

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That doesn't answer the question. Does your religion forbid praying for others? Once again, "Praying to Our Blessed Mother is no different than you asking your own mother to pray for you. Is that worshipping your mother?" There is only one answer, and the answer is no. My question exposes the absurdity of your objection.

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator. Our participation does not impinge on the sufficiency of Christ, but made possible because of it.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Again, this does not impinge on the sufficiency of Christ, but we are fellow workers because of it.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

So your remark, "Wouldn’t that be like saying Christ is not sufficient, that he can’t handle our needs, that he needs help?" is absurd.
I am Baptized Catholic, but have strayed away, I have prayed to the Blessed Mother many times, I feel that’s not right, as it takes away from my belief in God Almighty and his only begotten Son.
 

amadeus

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Thank you all for your responses, I always thought when someone prays to the Blessed Mother, it was for her to intercede, not to pray for us.
I am not Catholic and have not been for more than 40 years. Some Catholics may in fact worship Mary, but that is not, as I understand it, the official stand of the CC. People, Catholics and others, don't always believe the standards set by their local churches or in many cases they may not even know what they are. We, as individuals, need to seek as Jesus told us to do. The CC will not save us nor will any of the Protestant [or other] churches. Churches should be groups of people who gather together In His Name so that He will be in midst of them, but quite often that is not what happens. We may receive help or encouragement from the designated ministers in a church, but none of them can save us. Their prayers on our behalf, if they are righteous, will as James wrote, avail much. Likewise our prayers for them can also be helpful.

The helpfulness lies in sometimes opening doors that were closed or shining Light so that a person is able to see or understand, but the person prayed for still needs to make any life saving decisions for himself. No one can force another to person to be saved, but we can help someone who is hungry and thirsty for God... or we can help someone who is stumbling... or someone who is sick.
 

farouk

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I am Baptized Catholic, but have strayed away, I have prayed to the Blessed Mother many times, I feel that’s not right, as it takes away from my belief in God Almighty and his only begotten Son.
Romans 8 is a wonderful chapter which includes assuring words about the intercession of the Lord Jesus for the believer.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Thank you all for your responses, I always thought when someone prays to the Blessed Mother, it was for her to intercede, not to pray for us.
She DOES intercede by praying for us.
When you ask a friend to pray for you - THEY become intercessors.
 

BreadOfLife

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I've got news for you...any man who claims such blasphemous claims as do your popes about having "one consistory" with God and equal to Him in power, authority, privilege, etc., are worse than false prophets...they are first lieutenants in the army of Lucifer.
Nobody in the Catholic Church claims to have "equal" power to God.
This is yet another one of your distortions.

Nice try . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You are so intent on proving everyone else wrong, you forget to think. You are correct that baptism is a representation of death, but is rather a depiction of something Ajay taken place in the heart and mind...a public declaration of the decision already made. As for physical death for the born again believer, no, that isn't death. That is sleep, as Jesus said of Lazarus... We get woken up from that at the resurrection. Sorry BoL, there is no second death for the redeemed, that is for the lost only.
KJV Revelation 2
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
I forgot that as an SDA - you believe in the false, man-made heresy of "Soul Sleep."

The Word of God quickly puts that bad idea to rest:
Heb. 9:27

And just as it is appointed for man to DIE once, and after that comes judgment/

"Sleep" is simply a Scriptural metaphor for physical death.
 
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BreadOfLife

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LOL...really....ALL of Rome was Gods holy people?

And so then WHY would Paul be Hopful that there MIGHT be some among them with fruit...?

Rom 1:
[13] Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Obviously you are unaware...NOT ALL who heard Paul's Preaching or Letters from Paul...
Confessed their Belief...Continued following...
And Ofcourse Paul warned them of their detriment and forfeiture of their Gift of Salvation ...to STOP following and believing.

But that's probably TOO much for you to comprehend, since in your Religion, without your own confession or knowledge or belief in God or Christ...you were taught and testified on this Forum...as a BABY you received the Holy Spirit. LOL

Glory to God,
Taken
Pay attention.

Pauk wasn't writing to "ALL" of Rome. He was writing to the CHURCH at Rome. He refers to the CHURCH at Rome as "God's holy people" (Rom. 1:7) - and he warns them NOT to fall back into darkness and be cut off from God.

He's not writing to UNbelievers - but to born again believers.
 

BreadOfLife

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Except for the little FACT...
One is Bodily Alive and One is Bodily DEAD.

Asking is Asking. Praying TO is Praying TO.

Scripture instructs men to PRAY TO GOD...

Saints are NOT God.
Mary is NOT God.
Mary is NOT a Queen.
Mary is NOT everyone's Mother.
The Holy Father is God, not an elected man.

Glory to God,
Taken
And people who aren't very intelligent don't understand the definitions of words like "Pray".
Allow me to educate you . . .

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:

Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving



So, you see my ignorant friend - "worship" is not a primary definition of the word "Pray" - it is a SECONDARY definition. "Pray" simply means to "ASK".

As for those "dead" people you speak of in Heaven - they are MORE alive than YOU are because they have been made PERFECT in Christ.
YOU haven't . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Lose? You kid yourself.

The fallacy is anyone thinking they could go back after being born. You must have missed that lesson.

You have learned nothing, have gained nothing, and therefore have nothing to lose.

PS, But do take heed, the warnings were for you who think you have something but have not. For, as it is written, if you do not take heed..."whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.
And you have completely failed to address how those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ are warned in Scripture to maintain their faith or be cut off. Instead, you have swallowed the arrogant Protestant lie that is OSAS.

Good luck with that . . .
 

epostle

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Then YOU are at ODDS with Sacred Scripture.
Good luck with that . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
It's amazing how many Christians support John Calvin's OSAS invention, yet they disagree with most other things he taught.
 
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Taken

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Lose? You kid yourself.

The fallacy is anyone thinking they could go back after being born. You must have missed that lesson.

You have learned nothing, have gained nothing, and therefore have nothing to lose.


PS, But do take heed, the warnings were for you who think you have something but have not. For, as it is written, if you do not take heed..."whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

BreadOfLife presents a Scripture then hopes for one to disagree....

His Failure is him desperately trying to Dictate his presented Scripture APPLIES To another and ignorantly does Not comprehend...

All Scripture is True.
No one in this thread is claiming Scripture is Not True!

BOL appears to have been taught...All Scripture APPLIES the Same TO everyone...
And BOL appears AS IF, his self-appointment of Teacher authorizes him to Dictate to others (who have Not solicitated him as a Teacher)
Which Scriptures DO APPLY to others....when such Scriptures Do NOT Apply....
And BLO too ignorant and arrogant to Know or understand...people are not arguing with Scripture...but Rather with him wrongly Dictating what Applies "TO" others...

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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... the arrogant Protestant lie that is OSAS.

Instead of repeatedly making Accusations Toward people about something others understand and you Do Not...
Why not state how repeatedly having salvation and Losing it works in your Catholic Cocoon?

1)
Show Scripture of ONE person having;
Believed, heartfully Confessing Belief, Receiving the Lords Gift of Salvation...
And having successfully Fooled thee All Knowing Lord God...that He Took Back His Gift of Salvation!!

2)
Share your Testimony of HOW Many Times You Personally Heartfully called on the Lords Name, Confessed your belief IN Him, and the Spirit of the Lord Entered you...But was Not Powerful To overcome your Darkness and Keep You Free From Sin..
..and The Lord TOOK BACK...;
You having been Crucified with Christ...
His Forgiveness...
His covering your sins with His Light...
Your New heart...
His Gift of Salvation...
His washing YOU with His Blood...
His Seed ...
Your New spirit...
His Spirit...

1} according to your Teaching ; How Many Times (since you PREACH ONCE is not sufficient) did you and the Lord Repeat this Process BEFORE...The Power of the Lord God was efficient enough to Accomplish MAKING you Wholly (body, soul & spirit ) WHOLE in Faith "Fullness"and Acceptable To Him ?

2} Or do you Fail in TRUSTING the Word of the Lord, Shame Him...and continue repeating this Process over and over hoping and waiting TO SEE, IF the Lords Power IN you "Was sufficient" the First (ONCE) Time you Heartfully Confessed Belief IN Him?

3) or perhaps you Never called on the Lord...TO Confess your Belief...and instead were taught and relied on your Priest doing that For you?

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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ScottA

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And you have completely failed to address how those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ are warned in Scripture to maintain their faith or be cut off. Instead, you have swallowed the arrogant Protestant lie that is OSAS.

Good luck with that . . .
You lost me with all the religion-speak.

The warning stands.
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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It's amazing how many Christians support John Calvin's OSAS invention, yet they disagree with most other things he taught.
I'm confused
if you like someone's stance on an issue, why do you have to believe eveything he taught?
is it because you are so catholic that you are blind to this?
 
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BreadOfLife

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Instead of repeatedly making Accusations Toward people about something others understand and you Do Not...
Why not state how repeatedly having salvation and Losing it works in your Catholic Cocoon?

1)
Show Scripture of ONE person having;
Believed, heartfully Confessing Belief, Receiving the Lords Gift of Salvation...
And having successfully Fooled thee All Knowing Lord God...that He Took Back His Gift of Salvation!!

2)
Share your Testimony of HOW Many Times You Personally Heartfully called on the Lords Name, Confessed your belief IN Him, and the Spirit of the Lord Entered you...But was Not Powerful To overcome your Darkness and Keep You Free From Sin..
..and The Lord TOOK BACK...;
You having been Crucified with Christ...
His Forgiveness...
His covering your sins with His Light...
Your New heart...
His Gift of Salvation...
His washing YOU with His Blood...
His Seed ...
Your New spirit...
His Spirit...

1} according to your Teaching ; How Many Times (since you PREACH ONCE is not sufficient) did you and the Lord Repeat this Process BEFORE...The Power of the Lord God was efficient enough to Accomplish MAKING you Wholly (body, soul & spirit ) WHOLE in Faith "Fullness"and Acceptable To Him ?

2} Or do you Fail in TRUSTING the Word of the Lord, Shame Him...and continue repeating this Process over and over hoping and waiting TO SEE, IF the Lords Power IN you "Was sufficient" the First (ONCE) Time you Heartfully Confessed Belief IN Him?

3) or perhaps you Never called on the Lord...TO Confess your Belief...and instead were taught and relied on your Priest doing that For you?

Glory to God,
Taken
When a Christian stumbles in sin - as ALL Christians do (Rom. 7:7-25, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8) - we are not "re-saved".
We repent - and like faithful servants, we ask for God's forgiveness and mercy.

The difference between a Christian and a person of the world is that a Christian regrets stumbling and offending God and strives not to sin.
The difference between YOU and Christians is that we admit our flaws (1 Tim. 1:15) - and YOU don't . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You lost me with all the religion-speak.

The warning stands.
TRANSLATION:
"I have NO valid argument against the verses you presented, so I'll engage in nonsense instead."

That's what I thought . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I'm confused
if you like someone's stance on an issue, why do you have to believe eveything he taught?
is it because you are so catholic that you are blind to this?
So speaks the Cafeteria-Christian . . .
 

ScottA

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TRANSLATION:
"I have NO valid argument against the verses you presented, so I'll engage in nonsense instead."

That's what I thought . . .
On the contrary, you have it backwards.

It is I who have not engaged in your nonsense, while you call evil good and good evil. And look at you, you squirm like a worm put to the flame.