The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 28, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
So speaks the Cafeteria-Christian . . .

cafeteria christian?
lol!
that's cute!

Rollo Tamasi · Jul 28, 2019

i'm a cafeteria christian.....

BreadOfLife · Jul 28, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
i'm a cafeteria christian.....

Yup.
That's when you pick a little of this - but none of that.

It's at the heart of Protestantism.

BreadOfLife · Jul 28, 2019

ScottA said:
On the contrary, you have it backwards.

It is I who have not engaged in your nonsense, while you call evil good and good evil. And look at you, you squirm like a worm put to the flame.

I don't "squirm" when I read the word of God - I BELIEVE it.
And ALL of the verses I presented show dire warnings to born-again Christians not to fall back into darkness and be cut off . . .
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

There's NO place for your arrogant "OSAS" in God's kingdom.

epostle · Jul 28, 2019

Taken said:
Except for the little FACT...
One is Bodily Alive and One is Bodily DEAD.

Asking is Asking. Praying TO is Praying TO.

Scripture instructs men to PRAY TO GOD...

Saints are NOT God.
Mary is NOT God.
Mary is NOT a Queen.
Mary is NOT everyone's Mother.
The Holy Father is God, not an elected man.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

"Witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 (Communion of Saints)
Sorry Taken, but the notion that one can only pray to God is a man made tradition. Your definition of "pray to" is in error.

ScottA · Jul 28, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
I don't "squirm" when I read the word of God - I BELIEVE it.
And ALL of the verses I presented show dire warnings to born-again Christians not to fall back into darkness and be cut off . . .
(Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

There's NO place for your arrogant "OSAS" in God's kingdom.

More religion-speak nonsense.

But, no, those verses are not "warnings to born-again Christians." For God has no need to warn Himself in those born [again] of His own spirit of anything.

You error for lack of understanding. You are confusing those who "have seen a great light" only (such as yourself), with those who have actually entered into that great Light.

epostle · Jul 28, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
I'm confused
if you like someone's stance on an issue, why do you have to believe eveything he taught?
is it because you are so catholic that you are blind to this?

I didn't say "everything", I said "most things". Scroll up.
Catholicism and Calvinism have more in common than you can imagine.
John Calvin: Authoritative Council Needed to Unite Protestants

Philip James · Jul 28, 2019

Phoneman777 said:
The apostolic Church kept God's commandments and had the testimony of Jesus (the Spirit of Prophecy) and the faith of Jesus.

This Church was persecuted by Pagan Rome for its refusal to accept Caesar as "god" and as legit the Pantheon of innumerable gods.

In the 4th century

Hello phoneman,
I would gladly start by looking at the early church with you ( perhaps a new thread?)

We can begin by looking at Clement of Rome, Polycarp in Smyrna and Ignatius in Antioch... If you have others from that time period to examine feel free to list them...

My first point: Jesus, in his letters to the churches, has nothing but praise for Smyrna. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna, and commends Ignatius in Antioch.
As far as I know, no one challenges the claim that Ignatius was bishop of Antioch around 100 AD... Have you read his letters?

Peace!

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
When a Christian stumbles in sin - as ALL Christians do

Define "a Christian".
Define "a stumble",
Define "sin"....

Since your words do not parallel the Scripture reference you mention.

(Rom. 7:7-25, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8)

Click to expand...

-

? A Christian....A Stumble...Sin...where more specifically in these scripture and how applicable to losing salvation?

we are not "re-saved".
We repent - and like faithful servants, we ask for God's forgiveness and mercy.

You stated, being SAVED "ONCE", is a lie.
You stated, a person could receive the gift of Salvation and throw it back in the Lords Face.
You now state, you are NOT Saved Again.

So really what is your position....?

HOW MANY TIMES are YOU SAVED?
And AFTER you ARE SAVED, YOU CONTINUE TO SIN, and TO MAINTAIN and KEEP your SALVATION...you MUST CONTINUALLY REPENT?

You can answer for yourself...
But so far...it sounds like you are preaching...
Gods Power within a MAN is NOT SUFFICIENT to KEEP the man FROM continuing to SIN.

So again...to YOU...
What is a Christian?
What is a Stumble?
What is a Sin?

The difference between a Christian and a person of the world is that a Christian regrets stumbling and offending God and strives not to sin.

Again...
What is a Christian?
What is a Stumble?
What is Sin?

The difference between YOU and Christians is that we admit our flaws (1 Tim. 1:15) - and YOU don't . . .

LOL...now you introduce yet ANOTHER term; FLAW, and again give a REFERENCE to a Scripture that does not mention your term.

So...
What is a FLAW?
And to WHOM do you ADMIT "your flaws"?
And what is an EXAMPLE of "your flaws"?

See if you can ACTUALLY answer the questions I asked instead of listing references to Scripture that do not say what you say.

Glory to God,
Taken

aspen · Jul 29, 2019

JohnPaul said:
I am Baptized Catholic, but have strayed away, I have prayed to the Blessed Mother many times, I feel that’s not right, as it takes away from my belief in God Almighty and his only begotten Son.

Have you been to a Newman Center? It is run by the Dominicans - it is a campus ministry, but welcomes everyone. Dominicans are a preaching order so the harmonies are great and they are good teachers.

I learned a great deal about Catholic teachings that initially bothered me (I joined the church as an adult) and found out many of the issues I had were my own prejudices

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

Philip James said:
Hello phoneman,
I would gladly start by looking at the early church with you ( perhaps a new thread?)

We can begin by looking at Clement of Rome, Polycarp in Smyrna and Ignatius in Antioch... If you have others from that time period to examine feel free to list them...

My first point: Jesus, in his letters to the churches, has nothing but praise for Smyrna. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna, and commends Ignatius in Antioch.
As far as I know, no one challenges the claim that Ignatius was bishop of Antioch around 100 AD... Have you read his letters?

Peace!

I would say Ignatius was instrumental in preaching a UNIVERSAL Church, even using a Greek term that meant UNIVERSAL ie CATHOLIC.

I would also say the Lord God used the term WORLD, the habitat He created for mankind, (not a billion light years out into space as the name Universal suggests)

Ignatius was also instrumental in introducing the notion of ONE authoritative "leader" in each established "church" building, with the Idea of them being called BISHOP.

The Lord God established HIS CHURCH, without the walls of a building built with mens hands, and He, thee Lord God, the "leader", ie the established Foundation and "HEAD" of His Church.

I would agree Ignatius was highly regarded as a man faithful to Christ...

However, I also believe Jesus' teaching did not require Re-writing....
The Church is Christs Church...
Christ's Church is not built with mens hands..
Christ is the Foundation and the Head..
The Holy Father of Christs Church is God..

Glory to God,
Taken

aspen · Jul 29, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
i'm a cafeteria christian.....

Great....now I am hungry

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
TRANSLATION:
"I have NO valid argument against the verses you presented, so I'll engage in nonsense instead."

That's what I thought . . .

LOL...LOL...LOL...

The self-proclaimed catholic "teacher"...yet again can not help himself to STOP making up FALSE Claims and tryiing to PIN his FALSE Claims on OTHERS...

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

epostle said:
This is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word “martyr.”

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

"Witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 (Communion of Saints)
Sorry Taken, but the notion that one can only pray to God is a man made tradition. Your definition of "pray to" is in error.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your effort of sharing information about ... martyr's, saints being witnesss, spectators. of people on earth...which has nothing to do with the point...

Does God require a REPORT from these Witnesses? As IF God is Unaware of what men on earth are doing?

Are you suggesting Scripture TEACHES "you" to "PRAY TO"...Solicit "heavenly saints" as an intercessory FOR "things" you have done?

And if so, exactly WHAT, and HOW do "they" (heavenly saints) Intercede FOR "you".

Do they "TELL God", what you have done?
Do they "ASK God", to forgive you?

If you PRAY TO "them", on your behalf for needs, relief, comfort, etc. Do they "ASK God FOR YOU"...?

IF SO.... WHY?
ARE you without a DIRECT LINE of communication "TO GOD" "yourself"?

Please explain...your position, of your need for a saints "intercession".

Additionally...

Sorry Taken, but the notion that one [B} can only pray to God [/B] is a man made tradition. Your definition of "pray to" is in error.

I didn't say ONLY. I was speaking on behalf of Scriptural teaching that men should PRAY "TO" God...

A man CAN PRAY to anything they want to PRAY TO....saints, false gods, statues, satan, judge, etc.

Scripture TEACHES...

Tob 6 [17]...pray to God...

Sir 37: [15] ...pray to the most High...

Matt 6: [6] ...when thou prayest pray to thy Father...

2 Cor 2: [7]...pray to God ...

Matt 6: [9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven...

Please quote scripture to substantiate your position that reveals "pray to saints"...

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
And people who aren't very intelligent don't understand the definitions of words like "Pray".
Allow me to educate you . . .

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

So, you see my ignorant friend - "worship" is not a primary definition of the word "Pray" - it is a SECONDARY definition. "Pray" simply means to "ASK".

As for those "dead" people you speak of in Heaven - they are MORE alive than YOU are because they have been made PERFECT in Christ.
YOU haven't . . .

AND..you forgot to quote me claiming "worship" WAS a primary definition of the word Pray....

Oh right...Because I didn't say that...LOL

(funny how YOU SEE what does not exist)

There are no DEAD PEOPLE in heaven...LOL

they are MORE alive than YOU are because they have been made PERFECT in Christ.

Eh...They have been made PERFECTED...the fruition of PERFECTION hasn't occurred YET...
UH...duh...their Dead BODY is still on earth, rotting....and is not YET RAISED IN GLORY!

YOU haven't . .

LOL, you sitting in your little Booth like a circus fortune teller barking out one of your False fantasies.....fails you...

My soul IS restored and saved....the same as any saint IN Heaven...By the SAME Lord God.

My spirit IS quickened....the same as any saint IN Heaven....By the SAME SEED of God.

And THEIR Dead rotting BODY will be RAISED up IN Glory....the same as mine...BY the SAME Spirit of God.

But YOU...IDK...all that Sinning you say you do...but no worries...you have that "fortune telling" thingy that seems to keep you contently occupied.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

Rollo Tamasi said:
i'm a cafeteria christian.....

Another of BOL's bumper stickers?

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Yup.
That's when you pick a little of this - but none of that.

It's at the heart of Protestantism.

LOL...it is a HEART matter with a protestant...unlike your teaching of making spiritual decisions with your MIND, that you can later change....

AND ofcourse...it is about Being SELECTIVE, in what one Chooses TO ACCEPT that is good...
and REJECT What is NOT good...

And what's your point...you indulge in EVERYTHING?

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Jul 29, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
There's NO place for your arrogant "OSAS" in God's kingdom.

LOL...

Huh...?

There is no place in Gods kingdom for the Once and Always Saved ?

According to your Catholic doctrine... HOW MANY Times Is a man required to Become Saved Before his place IS in Gods kingdom?

Glory to God,
Taken

brakelite · Jul 29, 2019

Taken said:
Another of BOL's bumper stickers?

Glory to God,
Taken

Lol. Bumper sticker Christian???

JohnPaul · Jul 29, 2019

amadeus said:
I am not Catholic and have not been for more than 40 years. Some Catholics may in fact worship Mary, but that is not, as I understand it, the official stand of the CC. People, Catholics and others, don't always believe the standards set by their local churches or in many cases they may not even know what they are. We, as individuals, need to seek as Jesus told us to do. The CC will not save us nor will any of the Protestant [or other] churches. Churches should be groups of people who gather together In His Name so that He will be in midst of them, but quite often that is not what happens. We may receive help or encouragement from the designated ministers in a church, but none of them can save us. Their prayers on our behalf, if they are righteous, will as James wrote, avail much. Likewise our prayers for them can also be helpful.

The helpfulness lies in sometimes opening doors that were closed or shining Light so that a person is able to see or understand, but the person prayed for still needs to make any life saving decisions for himself. No one can force another to person to be saved, but we can help someone who is hungry and thirsty for God... or we can help someone who is stumbling... or someone who is sick.

@amadeus, this is how I feel about the Catholic church, it brought me to Christ, I have no animosities towards it, we all know what's right and wrong, I've made my own decisions in regards to the Catholic Church.

I love the Blessed Mother, and always will.

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