Galatians 5

Ernest T. Bass said:

This is a typical straw man faith onlyists offer up. NO WHERE have I ever said I can be justified by MY works. I have said I can be justifed by doing GOd's works/commands/laws. Evidently faith onlyist do not want to recognize the difference between one doing his OWN works and one doing GOD'S commands.

Click to expand...

Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These appear to be God's works that are spoken of and mentioned...how far did they get the people in question who thought that they were justified by them?

But if you will not listen to the testimony of scripture, then I have to believe that what is spoken of below is true of you:

2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Ernest T. Bass said:

What Christ did on the cross He did for every man, Hebrews 2:9 yet every man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ, Hebrews 5:9.

Click to expand...

Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of the fact that those of whom Melchizedek is the author of eternal salvation, also obey him (this is a passage that is said to be meat and not milk)...not that they obey him unto salvation...but that their salvation is unto obedience. What excludes a person from salvation is unbelief, which might result in disobedience...as also, faith results in obedience.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Jesus Himself said to strive to enter the strait gate Luke 13:24. One cannot enter heaven without striving to get there. What does one strive to do? His OWN works? No, but strives to keep GOD'S will and conditionally repents for those time he does not.

Click to expand...

The striving is unto sanctification; not the doing of good works. Yes, good works will result from sanctification.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Jesus never said believe only to be saved. Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism (Luke 13:3; Matthew 20:32-33 and Mark 16:16 just as necessary as belief. A NT belief therefore includes repentance confession and baptism else it is dead.

Click to expand...

You got one of those scriptures wrong. But in Mark 16:16 it does not say that those who do not believe and are not baptized shall be damned. It says, "those who do not believe are damned." Read it.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Abraham did do works Hebrews 11:8,17 that is an undeniable fact. Therefore "worketh not" of Romans 4:5 cannot exclude Abraham from ALL works of ALL types without creating a logical contradiction.

Click to expand...

No; because Romans 4:5 is speaking of the generic person who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly. Abraham may be given as an example in verses before it; however Romans 4:5 itself is not speaking of Abraham in particular.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Therefore if one quits hearing and following he is DIS-qualified from being a sheep of Christ and therefore will no longer be among the 'they' of verse 28.

Click to expand...

I say to you truly, that the one who has a living and saving faith shall never perish; and that this is absolute terminology. Therefore, either a man can fall away and would continue to have everlasting life or else a living and saving faith is an everlasting faith.

Ernest T. Bass said:

And yes, men can quit hearing and following Christ by using the same volition they used to start hearing and following Christ.

Click to expand...

Only if their faith is nominal, lukewarm, or shallow...as mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. If a man has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13), then the fear of the Lord is in his heart...and this means that not only can no one snatch him out of God's hand; but it also means that he shall not depart from the Lord (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv))...he will never walk away.

Davy said:

It's because even the 'tares' (Matt.13) have God's Salvation through His Son offered to them, if they will repent (recall 2 Peter 3:9).

Our Lord Jesus knew...

John 6:64
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him.
KJV

Click to expand...

Yes, I know.
I've been through this and actually what can we know for sure?
Jesus said he would hated...
Some say he might have repented while dying.
Some believe he started out saved and became lost.
I think we can't be sure.

GodsGrace said:

Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself.
All men. NOT categories of men.

Click to expand...

How were the Indians living in North, Central and South America DRAWN to Jesus during the first 1400 years after Jesus was “lifted up” and before anyone arrived from Europe to share the gospel?

You say that “all” must mean “all men without exception” but reality says that “all men without exception were NOT drawn”.

Shall we be just as unreasonable with the word “men” that you are with the word “all” and conclude that “all men without exception” are drawn, but women are not drawn to Jesus?

“All” and “men” are, in my opinion, both meant to be taken less literally than “all without exception” and “men without women”.

atpollard said:

How were the Indians living in North, Central and South America DRAWN to Jesus during the first 1400 years after Jesus was “lifted up” and before anyone arrived from Europe to share the gospel?

You say that “all” must mean “all men without exception” but reality says that “all men without exception were NOT drawn”.

Shall we be just as unreasonable with the word “men” that you are with the word “all” and conclude that “all men without exception” are drawn, but women are not drawn to Jesus?

“All” and “men” are, in my opinion, both meant to be taken less literally than “all without exception” and “men without women”.

Click to expand...

How did Abraham get wind of the gospel and enter into a relationship with God? For he lived in a land where the gospel most certainly was not preached.

He was given the first light, creation, Romans 1, and when he obeyed that light, he received the 2nd light, conscience, Romans 2, and when he obeyed that light, he received the 3rd light, the light of Christ.

For those in countries where the gospel has not been preached...their situation is the same as that of Abraham. They are gradually given light but for the most part reject the light that is given to them; and as the result they never come into contact with the light of Christ. But if they obeyed lights #1 and #2, God would show up with them, either as He did with Abraham or else by sending a missionary to their land to proclaim the gospel to them.

justbyfaith said:

I find that in some circles of Calvinism, they teach that we cannot choose God, i.e. we cannot repent; because if God did not choose you then you can do nothing to enter into the kingdom...even if you desire to go to heaven the Lord has shut you out.

Click to expand...

That is nonsense and not real Calvinist theology. Calvinists also do not teach that one can be transformed by the rebirth and continue to live a reprobate lifestyle, so the worst of the “Once Saved Always Saved” strawman is not Calvinism either.

If God did not choose you, then you have no DESIRE to repent and don’t give a rat’s @ss about the real God ... you are content with your personal “god shaped” idol. “Heart of stone” and “Dead in sin” and “blinded to the gospel” and “things of the Spirit are foolishness” ... all that stuff.

justbyfaith said:

How did Abraham get wind of the gospel and enter into a relationship with God? For he lived in a land where the gospel most certainly was not preached.

He was given the first light, creation, Romans 1, and when he obeyed that light, he received the 2nd light, conscience, Romans 2, and when he obeyed that light, he received the 3rd light, the light of Christ.

For those in countries where the gospel has not been preached...their situation is the same as that of Abraham. They are gradually given light but for the most part reject the light that is given to them; and as the result they never come into contact with the light of Christ. But if they obeyed lights #1 and #2, God would show up with them, either as He did with Abraham or else by sending a missionary to their land to proclaim the gospel to them.

Click to expand...

Is this true or not ...

Men are indeed without excuse for rejecting God, but men cannot be drawn to Christ without the Gospel.

atpollard said:

That is nonsense and not real Calvinist theology.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to tell you that it is. At least, it is the message that some Calvinists, in my experience, have tried to carry over to me.

Perhaps it is not what Calvin taught; but it has been said that his followers ran away with his preaching and turned it into something that it was never intended to be. Unfortunately, what Calvinists have done with Calvinism counts...it is included in the spectrum of what we call Calvinistic theology.

Calvinism does indeed imply that because God chose us and we did not choose Him, that if He did not choose us we can't choose Him.

For a system of theology that is supposed to be conducive to assurance, this kind of thinking serves to strip away real assurance that is based on the fact that we have called on the name of the Lord.

Because the implication is that if God didn't choose me, it doesn't matter that I chose Him (i.e. called upon His name)...I am left in the lurch because God didn't choose me.

If my calling on the name of the Lord means that God did choose me, then He chose me because I chose Him. i.e. according to foreknowledge.

But if I can't know whether God chose me when I call on the name of the Lord, then the assurance that the Lord intends for us is stripped away. I may or may not be saved, even though I called upon His name.

Because God intended that people who call on the name of the Lord would know that we are saved...that's why he put the following verse in absolute terms:

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

GodsGrace said:

And how about posting scripture?
Not everybody reading along has the bible memorized.

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus said He would draw ALL men to Himself.
All men. NOT categories of men.
God has been drawing men to Himself from the beginning of time,,,
but not all men accept God.
The CHOICE is up to us...
God offers,
We accept or deny.

Click to expand...

Why bother posting scripture, all you do is ignore my argument, tell me I am wrong, and ask me to explain three examples of scripture pong.

Now explain for me how EVERY PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH FROM THE YEAR AD 33 ON was drawn to Jesus Christ when millions of people were born, lived and died during that time with absolutely no chance whatsoever to hear the gospel and had no clue who Jesus was.

Start with everyone in the Western Hemisphere before 1492. In what possible sense were they drawn to Jesus?

atpollard said:

Is this true or not ...

[Romans 10:12-17 NASB]
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
​

Men are indeed without excuse for rejecting God, but men cannot be drawn to Christ without the Gospel.

[John 12:32 NASB] "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."​

Click to expand...

It does not say there that men cannot be drawn to Christ without the gospel. They are drawn to Christ light by light.

atpollard said:

Why bother posting scripture, all you do is ignore my argument, tell me I am wrong, and ask me to explain three examples of scripture pong.

Now explain for me how EVERY PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH FROM THE YEAR AD 33 ON was drawn to Jesus Christ when millions of people were born, lived and died during that time with absolutely no chance whatsoever to hear the gospel and had no clue who Jesus was.

Start with everyone in the Western Hemisphere before 1492. In what possible sense were they drawn to Jesus?

Click to expand...

You trying to preach Mormonism here?

justbyfaith said:

You trying to preach Mormonism here?

Click to expand...

HI jbf,

I think the point is that mormonism not offering a believeable answer, how could they ever have heard of Jesus? And therefore how could they be drawn? But creation shows the Creator. And God has His Own ways. Though Scripture tells us His Name.

Much love!

justbyfaith said:

Calvinism does indeed imply that because God chose us and we did not choose Him, that if He did not choose us we can't choose Him.

Click to expand...

This is true and I even said so. However, you went beyond this to talk about a “mythical” person who really and truly wanted to repent and please God and be saved, but God pushed them away. Read Romans 1 about men being without excuse and John 3 about the judgement that men love darkness and hide from God and Romans 3:10 about no one seeking God. Your “what if” is an impossibility.

“What if someone flapped their arms and flew to heaven without dying, would God let them in?” ... it is a nonsense question.

atpollard said:

This is true and I even said so. However, you went beyond this to talk about a “mythical” person who really and truly wanted to repent and please God and be saved, but God pushed them away. Read Romans 1 about men being without excuse and John 3 about the judgement that men love darkness and hide from God and Romans 3:10 about no one seeking God. Your “what if” is an impossibility.

“What if someone flapped their arms and flew to heaven without dying, would God let them in?” ... it is a nonsense question.

Click to expand...

So if I call upon the name of the Lord, I am most definitely saved...

This would indicate that the Lord chose me because I chose Him, i.e. according to foreknowledge; which most Calvinists reject.

Otherwise, if the Lord can reject me because He didn't choose me, even though I call upon His name, at least then you are being consistent in your theology.

But the assurance that God intends to give us through Romans 10:13 goes out the window.

God does indeed intend for us to have assurance:

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

justbyfaith said:

It does not say there that men cannot be drawn to Christ without the gospel. They are drawn to Christ light by light.

Click to expand...

Tread carefully. You are tiptoeing up to the edge of men being saved without the need to know Christ. Are Buddhists and Muslims saved?
Is Jesus “the way, and the truth, and the life” and “no one comes to the Father but through [Him]”?
... or are there many paths to God?

If men can be saved without hearing the Gospel, then it is YOU and not Calvinists that have made “proclaiming the Gospel” optional. On the other hand, if “faith comes by hearing” and “hearing by the word of God” and the “only way” to the Father is through the Son, then preaching the Gospel is literally LIFE and DEATH!

God will draw all men without distinction, not all men without exception. We have “good works” to do and our works for God really do matter.

justbyfaith said:

This would indicate that the Lord chose me because I chose Him, i.e. according to foreknowledge; which most Calvinists reject.

Click to expand...

You should look a little closer at the word “foreknew” as it is used in Romans 8:29. It does NOT mean to know about someone or something, like knowing a fact. Foreknew can have that meaning in English, but the Greek word used does not mean knowledge. “Foreknew” in Greek means a personal relationship. God knows who you are, on a personal level ... like knowing your parent or knowing your child or knowing a cousin. It is related to the same word as when Adam or Abraham “knew” their wife and had a son. Only God “Fore” (before) “knew” (personal/intimate relationship) us.

Calvinists reject that God chose you because God was able to foretell what future choice you would make. That is not how and why God does things ...

• [Rom 9:11 NASB] 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

... God does things for His purpose and according to His choice ... NOT because of anything good or bad that we do or will do.

justbyfaith said:

Otherwise, if the Lord can reject me because He didn't choose me, even though I call upon His name, at least then you are being consistent in your theology.

Click to expand...

Since you will not believe me, perhaps you will hear God ...

• [John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
  
  • Why would someone that does evil, hates God and does not come to God want to “call upon His name”?
• [Romans 1:18-21 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
  
  • Why would the men who suppress the truth, who refuse to honor God, whose speculations are futile and whose hearts are darkened want to “call upon His name”?
• [Romans 3:10-11 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
  
  • If “not even one” is righteous and none “understand” or “seeks for God”, then why would any of the unrighteousness and non-understanding non-seekers of God want to “call upon His name”?
• [Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
  
  • Why would someone dead in sin, walking according the power of the evil one, a son of disobedience, living in the lust of the flesh and by nature a child of wrath want to “call upon His name”?
• [1Co 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
  
  • Why would a man who views things of the Spirit as “foolishness” that he cannot understand want to “call upon His name”?
• [2Co 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • Why would a man whose mind is blinded so he cannot see the Gospel want to “call upon His name”?

Notice that none of these verses required any action on God’s part to make men blind sinners, hiding from the true God, hating His light and worshiping lies that feed their flesh. This is the fate of every man if God does NOTHING. It is only the supernatural actions of God that alter the trajectory of the “natural man” from child of wrath to child of God. Without the action from God, you would have no desire to “call upon His name”. This it was God that DREW you to Him ...

• [Romans 8:28-39 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1. God did it.
2. God keeps doing it.
3. God does it because He loves us.

atpollard said:

Tread carefully. You are tiptoeing up to the edge of men being saved without the need to know Christ. Are Buddhists and Muslims saved?
Is Jesus “the way, and the truth, and the life” and “no one comes to the Father but through [Him]”?
... or are there many paths to God?

If men can be saved without hearing the Gospel, then it is YOU and not Calvinists that have made “proclaiming the Gospel” optional. On the other hand, if “faith comes by hearing” and “hearing by the word of God” and the “only way” to the Father is through the Son, then preaching the Gospel is literally LIFE and DEATH!

God will draw all men without distinction, not all men without exception. We have “good works” to do and our works for God really do matter.

Click to expand...

Of course there is only one way to God; but there is also a path that leads to the narrow path. While a man is walking down the path that leads to the narrow path, he is being drawn towards Christ, even towards that day when he will hear the gospel.

atpollard said:

... God does things for His purpose and according to His choice ...

Click to expand...

He loved Jacob, and hated Esau....do you mean to tell me that there was nothing in either one of them that evoked God's emotional response? That God loves and hates people for no apparent reason? Consider that the Lord is outside of time and saw everything in both of their lives before they were born; as well as from the perspective of after they receive their judgment from Him.

atpollard said:

Why would someone that does evil, hates God and does not come to God want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

Why would the men who suppress the truth, who refuse to honor God, whose speculations are futile and whose hearts are darkened want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

If “not even one” is righteous and none “understand” or “seeks for God”, then why would any of the unrighteousness and non-understanding non-seekers of God want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

Why would someone dead in sin, walking according the power of the evil one, a son of disobedience, living in the lust of the flesh and by nature a child of wrath want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

Because the gospel was preached to them; and in order to avoid hell.

atpollard said:

Why would a man who views things of the Spirit as “foolishness” that he cannot understand want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

Why would a man whose mind is blinded so he cannot see the Gospel want to “call upon His name”?

Click to expand...

Because through prayer, these obstacles were overcome.

Hidden In Him said:

It's over.
A. You didn't answer my question, again.
B. All you could muster was being insulting, again.

Foolish of me to give you another shot, but I thought I would at least try. But you're content to be a sinner.

It's no small wonder you are in ill-health, H. Richard. You walk in continual, unrepentant sin, and will not repent even when being chastised for it. Please do so before you go to meet with God. As I told you before, none of this is a game, and those who present themselves as teachers of the word bear a grave responsibility. They will answer for what they did with His holy word.

Click to expand...

I should think this SHOULD be over.

H. Richard said:

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Click to expand...

That seems to be one of the hardest things for many to do. So Many voices that try to pull us into a life of "works for righteousness", failing to realize that will always point people to walking in the flesh.

Anytime anyone thinks that they have to do this or do that to be righteous to God, to be accepted by God, to be adopted by God, to be birthed by God, any time someone thinks they have to do some work or works, some keeping of the Law, since this is not what God wants from us, it will ALWAYS turn to the flesh. Because there is no spiritual answer when the question is meaningless.

We CANNOT learn from God what Laws we are to keep, since we are dead to the Law. But answers will come if we do ask that question. Many around will say, you must do this, you must do that, if you aren't doing this you're not <one of us> whomever that "us" may be. The circle of Law-Keepers. Those who would bring accusation.

Those who will tell you if you sin God will throw you away. Nonsense and hogwash! Those who tell you if you sin you are not In Christ. Would they have us to believe that they NEVER SIN? Or that they are NOT IN CHRIST? Which would you suppose?

Go looking for visions and you'll find them. Go looking for Laws to keep and you'll find them. But go looking for Jesus, and you will find Him, but not by being good enough, not by setting a nice place for Him to come sit in, but by submitting to Him in faith.

Come to me, all who are weary, and I will give you rest, this is what He said. Not, and I will make you work.

The simple truth is that our works arise from our new life in Jesus. We do good because God has made us righteous and holy, not to become righteous and holy, as if we could somehow make ourselves that way by acting nice enough.

And, if that's actually the criteria, by behaving well? We see how others behave, so what should we conclude?

Much love!