Galatians 5

justbyfaith said:

So @marks,

What do you make of the following?:

1Co 6:9, Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11, And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19, Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told youin time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It would seem that there is a list of don'ts that if we do them, we will not inherit the Lord's kingdom!

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Hi JBF,

Let's look.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Is this a list of "do's" and "don'ts"? I don't see that here.

There is a list of people. Let's follow through with one example, fornicators. Don't be deceived, fornicators won't inherit the kingdom of God.

Some of you were fornicators.

But you are washed, sanctified, justified.

What does God say a little later in the chapter?

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

So what is being taught?

Fornicators won't inherit the kingdom. Some of us were fornicators. But now we aren't. So flee fornication.

It's not that someone who commits fornication won't inherit. That's the teaching of the Legalist, who claims that if we are truly saved we do not ever sin, and that ever sinning means we are not In Christ, which, by Scriptural definition, is not saved.

The criteria is not on the behavior, but on the person. Who they are.

Gal 5:19, Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is how the flesh acts. And the flesh does not inherit the kingdom. We need to examine ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith. Many who think they are, are not.

So here's a question. How is it that you do not do those things? You not do them by instead walking in the Spirit.

Legalism: Monitoring your behavior and thoughts for those things that do not conform to the Law of Moses, to the lists in the New Testament, to the Sermon on the Mount. Learning everything that God commanded the Israelites to do, learning everything that defines God's will, learning all the lists of flesh-works to be avoided, and living life according to doing and not doing all that we think we're to do and not do.

Grace: Loving Jesus all the time, doing whatever is next to do in love for Him, and love for others.

Much love!

H. Richard said:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

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Living life this way puts us into a completely different life from living under Law. There isn't this constant, I'm I being good? Am I being bad? God will let me know what I need to change.

God pities us who fear Him, those who worship Him, because He remembers, what He made us from, that we're only dirt. He knows my struggles.

But He's changing me, inside out. I don't need to try to change myself outside-in, as if I knew what I needed! There's hubris!

He's growing these into us, making us loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, temperate. There is no need of Law, since we are loving, and joyful, and peaceful, and all these.

Much love!

H. Richard said:

24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

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This is definitive of who we are. If you are Christ's, then you have crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires.

So since we've become that way, let's do life that way.

H. Richard said:

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

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This isn't about, "I'm so Holy, everybody, if you do 'my way', you can be holy too!" No. Let's live in reality. The reality that Jesus frees us from our sin, but we don't walk in that freedom by keeping our eyes fixed on the do's and don'ts. We walk in that freedom trusting that Jesus has given us freedom.

We don't take this idea that we're somehow better than others because we have this overinflated view of ourselves and beat others with it, As If we have the secrets of the universe and don't you wish you did too?

And we don't let them get to us, thinking, gee, I must be a second class Christian (which some would be happy to agree), I'm missing out on all the glowy lights! Gee I wish I could go to the 3rd heaven like these guys all are saying!

There's this whole one-ups-man-ship when focus is turned to works.

We look to what Jesus did, not to what we do. But in His power, this is in fact how we may live. In freedom, and in righteousness. In love.

Much love!

So if someone is a fornicator they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Question: what makes someone a fornicator?

Is it not the act of fornicating?

To @marks

H. Richard said:

I am convinced that walking in the spirit is walking with faith in Jesus’ work on the cross.

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I agree.

One of the passages I love to remember is Hebrews, He has promised, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. That's a good promise from a faithful Creator.

Much love!

marks said:

That's the teaching of the Legalist, who claims that if we are truly saved we do not ever sin, and that ever sinning means we are not In Christ, which, by Scriptural definition, is not saved.

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I think that even though we probably do sin as believers in Christ, that there are certain sins that we simply do not commit: otherwise, you would have people who truly believe in Christ who will not inherit the kingdom.

justbyfaith said:

So if someone is a fornicator they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Question: what makes someone a fornicator?

Is it not the act of fornicating?

To @marks

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Who are you truly?

If we define ourselves according to our behavior instead of according to our nature, then we're back to judging according to how we think the Law should be applied.

God gives a clue in the flow of the chapter.

Fornicators won't inherit, some of you used to be fornicators, so flee fornication.

Question . . . why would God tell someone who is no longer a fornicator to flee fornication?

There is an answer in Scripture, I'll come back to this.

Much love!

justbyfaith said:

I think that even though we probably do sin as believers in Christ, that there are certain sins that we simply do not commit: otherwise, you would have people who truly believe in Christ who will not inherit the kingdom.

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Again . . . who are you truly.

The Bible does not teach a perfect and sinless people, the Bible teaches that God intends us not to sin, and has a plan in place for if we do. God isn't fooling Himself, He knows all about us. People are the ones who fool themselves. He's not the One Who is blind!

The born again Christian either sins, or doesn't sin. Who among us says they no longer sin? Some like to imply that. Some even come almost to the point of saying it. But they don't. We all know its nonsense to claim for ourselve the moniker, "I never sin". Foolishness!

The born again Christian who sins, either they remain born again, or that sin kills them again.

If that sin kills them again, then the nature which had been given, a new nature, partakers of God's nature, is removed, and we are returned to our old nature, the fallen nature. And so the one who fornicates is then the fornicator, and will not inherit. Unless they are born again again, that is.

If that sin does not kill them again, and they remain with the new nature, then this is what God taught in Romans 7, that we really are dead to sin, dead to the law, dead dead dead, and therefore, the sin that would have killed us can't. And so that person then is that which we all seek to not be . . . a Christian who has commited a sin. But therefore it is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me. And I give thanks to God, that through Jesus Christ my Lord, I am rescued from this body of death!

Who are we? God's children? Then let us walk so, increasing towards the perfect day.

Much love!

marks said:

If we define ourselves according to our behavior instead of according to our nature, then we're back to judging according to how we think the Law should be applied.

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But doesn't our behaviour reflect accurately what is in our nature? If our nature is ungodly, then the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ: it shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:20).

marks said:

The born again Christian who sins, either they remain born again, or that sin kills them again.

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Here is what it says in James about that:

Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth <spiritual> death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

justbyfaith said:

But doesn't our behaviour reflect accurately what is in our nature? If our nature is ungodly, then the law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ: it shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25, Romans 3:20).

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Hi JBF,

If our behavior is always a reflection of our true nature, then our true nature either changes back and forth as often as our behavior does, or it simply remains depraved, and us deceived.

But as you just wrote, the Law is a pedagogue to lead to faith in Christ, and then the Law is done. So those who are in Christ will not be judged by that law.

And those who are in Christ, while they may still commit sins of the flesh, they remain in Christ, because the law carries no more condemnation. The new man remains holy and righteous, the old man remains depraved and sinful.

This is the error of those who espouse sinlessness as the proof of salvation. Since everyone still commits sins, and since that war between flesh and spirit will continue so long as we are spirits in this flesh, then by their doctrine, no one knows God, no one is saved, no one is righteous, because ALL fall short. Although in practice, generally the one espousing it will lead on that they are in fact In Christ, and therefore sinless.

I don't recall any who hold such views admitting to not being "in Christ", which in itself an implicit claim of sinlessness. Some here can become very evasive on this point.

And it's not like you can just undo your sinful deeds by good deeds, good deeds done to try to buy approval from God are works of the flesh, therefore sin. God is not a respecter of persons. We cannot "buy" His favor. And we cannot "buy" His favor by abstaining from evil works. Abstinence from evil works for the purpose of "buying" God's favor is just the same a work of the flesh, and is therefore sin itself.

We only receive from God that which comes in the way He says, all else is counterfeit. You cannot buy God's favor and blessing with good works, or by the abstention of evil works.

Here is what it says in James about that:

Jas 1:14, But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15, Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth <spiritual> death.
Jas 1:16, Do not err, my beloved brethren.

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So then you've added a word to the text, I can't help but notice.

If your understanding here is that sins committed by those who are born again cause them to die again, well, let's just say we disagree on that.

Looking at a broader context,

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

don't worry, be happy, even in trouble, since it causes you to endure, becoming mature

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

It's not about how smart or wise you are, God will give you wisdom all you want, if you only believe.

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

It doesn't matter what station in life you hold, we're all going to be tested, but God has promised that we'll receive a crown of life out of it through our endurance.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Don't be thinking that these difficulties are God's way of tripping you into sin, that's not what God does. These are opportunities to grow, to mature, each temptation/test has it's specific outcome that is intended by God, but if we're not willing to endure, and we want to take things into our own hands, and go after whatever we think we want, then that's on us, we do that. Follow after the deceitful lusts of the flesh, and it leads to sin, and sin kills.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Make no mistake about this, God gives all good and perfect gifts, not sin, not darkness, not from our Father of Lights, Who doesn't change, and isn't like shifting shadows.

There's a lot more in this passage of course, these are some thoughts while reflecting on your post.

Much love!

justbyfaith said:

Because through prayer, these obstacles were overcome.

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By the man or by God?

Remember, your example was someone who was still “blinded” to the “foolishness” but WANTED to “call upon His name” ... but God would not allow it. That was what you were concerned about.

justbyfaith said:

Of course there is only one way to God; but there is also a path that leads to the narrow path. While a man is walking down the path that leads to the narrow path, he is being drawn towards Christ, even towards that day when he will hear the gospel.

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How does that apply to those who can never hear the gospel?
Like the people living in North America before the 1500’s.
That was my original question to you when you made it sound like they were saved without knowing Christ.

justbyfaith said:

do you mean to tell me that there was nothing in either one of them that evoked God's emotional response?

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Rather than speculate on “what if”, we can simply believe what God says ...

[Romans 9] ... so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand ... not because of works but because of Him who calls ... "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." ... TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH ... does not the potter have a right ... God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy ...

God told us why.
Believe Him or don’t. [shrug]

justbyfaith said:

Because the gospel was preached to them; and in order to avoid hell.

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The gospel was NOT preached to all of the people living in the Western Hemisphere prior to 15th Century, but if “all men without exception” were drawn to the resurrected Jesus in AD 33, then these people that never heard the gospel were included in “all men”. So my question stands, HOW WERE THEY DRAWN TO CHRIST?

(They did NOT hear the gospel, but they were sinners like the quoted scriptures described.)

atpollard said:

The gospel was NOT preached to all of the people living in the Western Hemisphere prior to 15th Century, but if “all men without exception” were drawn to the resurrected Jesus in AD 33, then these people that never heard the gospel were included in “all men”. So my question stands, HOW WERE THEY DRAWN TO CHRIST?

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Hi atpollard,

Just a thought on this . . . I may not know how God does something, but if He says that He does that thing, what does it matter whether or not I know how He does that thing?

Much love!

marks said:

Hi atpollard,

Just a thought on this . . . I may not know how God does something, but if He says that He does that thing, what does it matter whether or not I know how He does that thing?

Much love!

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Salutations:

It matters if it is true or not. Men once misused the scripture on creation to prove the world was flat (with four corners) and covered by two domes (one for the air and one for the stars). Does it matter if the world is really flat or really round?

The difference in the case of “I will draw all men” between God claiming to draw all men without exception (as many here claim it means) and all men without distinction (from every nation, from every continent, from every race, speaking every language, rich and poor, healthy and sick, young and old, etc.) is the difference between preaching the Gospel of Christ being one of several paths to God (evangelism becomes commanded, but not actually essential) and the preaching of the Gospel of Christ being the ONLY way to God (making evangelism the most important thing every christian can do).

So I sort of think that in this case, the TRUTH, whichever way it is, really is important and really does matter.

atpollard said:

Salutations:

It matters if it is true or not. Men once misused the scripture on creation to prove the world was flat (with four corners) and covered by two domes (one for the air and one for the stars). Does it matter if the world is really flat or really round?

The difference in the case of “I will draw all men” between God claiming to draw all men without exception (as many here claim it means) and all men without distinction (from every nation, from every continent, from every race, speaking every language, rich and poor, healthy and sick, young and old, etc.) is the difference between preaching the Gospel of Christ being one of several paths to God (evangelism becomes commanded, but not actually essential) and the preaching of the Gospel of Christ being the ONLY way to God (making evangelism the most important thing every christian can do).

So I sort of think that in this case, the TRUTH, whichever way it is, really is important and really does matter.

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What I'm saying is that my understanding of how something happens has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not according to Scripture.

I can say, the Bible teaches that water came of of the earth (the fountains of the deep) but whether or not I can explain exactly how that happened doesn't affect the truth of the Bible.

So then if I can't tell you how God drew this man or that man to Himself, that doesn't matter if in fact the Bible says that's what Jesus does or did. We need to determine truth based on God's statements and not my ability to reverse-engineer His ways.

Much love!

atpollard said:

So I sort of think that in this case, the TRUTH, whichever way it is, really is important and really does matter.

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I think it matters also!

marks said:

If our behavior is always a reflection of our true nature, then our true nature either changes back and forth as often as our behavior does, or it simply remains depraved, and us deceived.

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Or, maybe we have not yet had our nature transformed so that our behaviour might not reflect unholiness of character.

Also, for many believers, we are dealing with two natures. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Since all of us were born of flesh (and being born again of the Holy Spirit doesn't change that); all of us are made of flesh and have a nature of flesh. But it is our new nature (the spirit/new-man) that operates in holy behaviour.

The flesh can also be rendered dead so that it has no say over my behaviour (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8)

marks said:

So then you've added a word to the text, I can't help but notice.

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Sorry, I just had to clarify because I have noticed that certain people add a different word to the text (i.e. physical) in order to support their philosophy in light of this scripture.

atpollard said:

How does that apply to those who can never hear the gospel?
Like the people living in North America before the 1500’s.

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People who lived in NA before the 1950's would have had the light of creation and the light of conscience to guide them; and if they obeyed both lights, I believe that the Lord would have revealed Himself to them like He did with Abraham.

atpollard said:

Rather than speculate on “what if”, we can simply believe what God says ...

[Romans 9] ... so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand ... not because of works but because of Him who calls ... "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." ... TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH ... does not the potter have a right ... God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy ...

God told us why.
Believe Him or don’t. [shrug]

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You have changed the subject matter from Jacob and Esau to Pharaoh. I believe that God hated Esau because He saw something in Esau that was displeasing to Him. Therefore His predestination of Esau to hell (if that is where he went) was based on Esau's life and God's foreknowledge of what that life would be.

shnarkle said:

I was with you all the way to the last sentence. I agree that Christ didn't sin, but he wasn't omniscient like God either. Even his will was limited by God's will. As Paul points out he came in the likeness of sinful flesh, i.e. the likeness of sin's flesh.

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If He wasn't omniscient, how did he say to the man, I saw you under the tree?

If He was God and was also human, you can't remove either part, can you?

It seems to me that we will holler if anyone tries to say He wasn't human, but we need to maintain that same vigilance to holler if anyone says He wasn't God as well.