Galatians 5

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

TheWind

Member
Aug 3, 2019
95
23
8
45
ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Note: In the above we see Paul exhorting his followers to resist going back under the law. Since we have been set free from the law we are not to go back under the bondage of the law.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. ---- Note: Not man’s love but through God’s love.

7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

Note: Paul is saying that if he is still preaching the law why does he suffer from the Judizers. The offense of the cross (verse 11) is that it does away with the Jewish law and substitutes grace. To this fact the Jews take offense.

12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Note: Paul confirms that we are under liberty. However he exhorts us to love our neighbor as ourselves.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Note: Paul has said that they can not do the things that they wish. So then walking in the Spirit is not trying to keep the law by not sinning.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Note: If we are placing our belief, faith, trust and confidence in Jesus’ shed blood we are not under the law. There is only two conditions that apply to man today, either he/she is under the law of sin or they have been set free.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: this is a condemnation of the flesh and confirmation that flesh shall not enter heaven.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
NKJV

Note: If we are walking with our faith in Jesus’ work on the cross then we have crucified the flesh because we no longer place our faith in what it can do but in what God has already done.

Many will say that verses 19-21 condemns everyone that commits those sins. But if that is true then it contradicts verses 1-18 which clearly show that the believer is not under the law of works.

I am convinced that walking in the spirit is walking with faith in Jesus’ work on the cross.


God is a Spirit, and that Spirit is the Spirit of love, which is the reason the scripture says God is love. To walk in the Spirit is to walk in love, and love works no wrong to his neighbor as it is written:

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
 

shnarkle

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2013
1,689
569
113
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
If He wasn't omniscient, how did he say to the man, I saw you under the tree?

If He was God and was also human, you can't remove either part, can you?

It seems to me that we will holler if anyone tries to say He wasn't human, but we need to maintain that same vigilance to holler if anyone says He wasn't God as well.

Christ points out that he only does or says what is given to him from the father. The author of the gospel is referring to a passage from the Old Testament where Moses points out that from the time one gets up in the morning until they go to sleep at night, everything they do or say is to be a manifestation of God's will. This doesn't make one who does these things God.

Christ says, only the father knows when he will return. This necessarily means that Christ doesn't know which means he can't be omniscient. There is only one mediator between God and humanity, and that's Christ. Omniscience, by definition can never be known which necessitates a mediator.
 

shnarkle

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2013
1,689
569
113
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
The gospel was NOT preached to all of the people living in the Western Hemisphere prior to 15th Century, but if “all men without exception” were drawn to the resurrected Jesus in AD 33, then these people that never heard the gospel were included in “all men”. So my question stands, HOW WERE THEY DRAWN TO CHRIST?

(They did NOT hear the gospel, but they were sinners like the quoted scriptures described.)

The answer is that Christ is self sacrifice personified, and all men are drawn to self sacrifice at some point in their lives.
 

shnarkle

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2013
1,689
569
113
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I think that even though we probably do sin as believers in Christ, that there are certain sins that we simply do not commit: otherwise, you would have people who truly believe in Christ who will not inherit the kingdom.

There is no sin in Christ so to say that one is in Christ, and sins is a contradiction.
 

shnarkle

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2013
1,689
569
113
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
So if someone is a fornicator they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Question: what makes someone a fornicator?

Is it not the act of fornicating?

To @marks

No, one need only fornicate in their heart to be a fornicator, and guilty of fornication. As far as guilt or defilement goes, actually going out and fornicating is anticlimactic. This is why Christ points out the futility in washing to cleanse us of any ontological defilement.
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
I say to you truly, that the one who has a living and saving faith shall never perish; and that this is absolute terminology. Therefore, either a man can fall away and would continue to have everlasting life or else a living and saving faith is an everlasting faith.



Only if their faith is nominal, lukewarm, or shallow...as mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. If a man has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13), then the fear of the Lord is in his heart...and this means that not only can no one snatch him out of God's hand; but it also means that he shall not depart from the Lord (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv))...he will never walk away.

(I will deal with this separately since OSAS is a different subject from Abraham and faith)

From the context of John 10:27-28, who are the one's that "shall never perish"? Those that CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ, these shall never perish. Yet if one quits hearing and following Christ he shall perish.

1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12 are just two verses that prove one can choose to quit hearing and following Christ.

John 6:66-67;
66- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67- Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Verses 66 shows many of "His" disciples went back and followed Him no more, again men can quit hearing and following Christ

In verse 67 the word 'also' means in the same manner, even the 12 Apostles could do as those disciples in verse 66 in going back and following no more for this question asked by Christ implies such. If it were impossible for the Apostles to ever turn back and follow Christ no more then the question asked by Christ implies an impossibility, it implies a lie.

Fleshly Israel who, in time, turned their back on God in disobedience and rejected the Messiah when He came therefore God rejected them casting them off from being His chosen people, Romans 10:1; Romans 11. There was no OSAS for fleshly Israel.

Jeremiah 32:40 is a prophecy of the NT covenant. It does not say that apostasy will be impossible, for if no one could fall away then that renders the word 'apostasy' useless, meaningless and contradicts verses in the NT of those they did fall away.

Jeremiah in saying "they may not depart" means that when Christianity comes, it will not depart. People will become Christians and there will always be Christians until the end of time, Christianity will be perpetual upon earth and not depart. This GROUP called Christian will always exist, people will become part of the group and others will fall from the group, but the group will continue to exist. And as long as Christianity continues then this new covenant will not be broken, that is, it will be everlasting.
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


These appear to be God's works that are spoken of and mentioned...how far did they get the people in question who thought that they were justified by them?

But if you will not listen to the testimony of scripture, then I have to believe that what is spoken of below is true of you:

2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Only those that do the will of the Father are the ones who enter the kingdom. Just saying "Lord, Lord" is vain without doing the will of God. Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Those works those people were doing in v22 were not the will of the Father. Jesus calls their work "iniquity".
I have seen many TV evangelists claim the work they are doing is the will of God when it is not. There is almost innumerous number of false teachers claiming they are doing the will of God. What they are doing, they are doing without Christ's authority.


justbyfaith said:
Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of the fact that those of whom Melchizedek is the author of eternal salvation, also obey him (this is a passage that is said to be meat and not milk)...not that they obey him unto salvation...but that their salvation is unto obedience. What excludes a person from salvation is unbelief, which might result in disobedience...as also, faith results in obedience.

The clear language of Hebrews 5:9 is Christ saves those who obey Him. The verse does not mention Melchizedec, the pronoun 'he' in verse 9 refers back to the nearest antecedent "Son" in verse 8.


justbyfaith said:
The striving is unto sanctification; not the doing of good works. Yes, good works will result from sanctification.

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

The striving is to enter the strait gate that leads to life>>salvation Matthew 7:14.

No striving = no life, no salvation.


justbyfaith said:
You got one of those scriptures wrong. But in Mark 16:16 it does not say that those who do not believe and are not baptized shall be damned. It says, "those who do not believe are damned." Read it.

Mark 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects:
1) salvation
2) condemnation

It gives TWO requirements to be saved; belief AND baptism,
It gives just ONE requirement to be lost; unbelief

No one has authority to add requirement(s) to either subject or to subtract requirement(s) from either subject.

Since in Mark 16(a) Jesus gave a logical progression of steps in making belief a prerequisite before one can be baptized. Therefore logically we already know from 16(a) that means an unbeliever is an unbaptized person.

So in 16(b) when Jesus says "he that believeth not" again, we already know that an unbeliever is an unbaptized person, hence "believeth not" INCLUDES not being baptized. It would be redundant, unnecessary and illogical for Jesus to say in 16 (b) "he that believeth not and is baptized not due to his unbelief shall be condemned" when we already logically know "believeth not" = not baptized,.


justbyfaith said:
No; because Romans 4:5 is speaking of the generic person who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly. Abraham may be given as an example in verses before it; however Romans 4:5 itself is not speaking of Abraham in particular.

Paul specifically has Abraham in mind when writing Romans 4:1-5. Paul just pointed out in Romans 1 that Gentiles (Paul uses Abraham as example of a Gentile) are sinners and under sin, therefore in need of justification.

in Romans 3 Paul shows that the OT law of Moses given to the Jews was an advantage to them in some way but not when it came to justification for that law required perfect, strict flawless law keeping to be justified and the Jews could not do that. At the end of Romans 3 we find that faith is what can justify.

So the contrast Paul makes in Romans 3 is the works of the OT law of Moses that cannot justify versus faith that can justify....and this contrast is clearly seen in Romans 3:28.

And Romans 4:5 is a rehash of Romans 3. Abraham was one who worketh not means he did not work to keep the OT law perfect but instead had faith. The ONLY Work Paul eliminates here are the perfect works required by the OT law and NEVER excluded obedience.


In the context of Romans 4:5 there are 3:
(1) the worker would be the obedient man working to keep the law perfectly.
(2) the one who 'worketh not' is the disobedient man not keeping the law.
(3) the one who believes

The worker (one who is perfectly obedient) is contrasted from the believer. Therefore the worker would be owed his reward (Romans 4:4) while the forgiven believer's reward is of grace.

This means "worketh not" is the person who is disobedient and not keeping God's law. Yet Abraham obeyed (Hebrews 11:8,17).

Therefore Abraham was not (1) the worker keeping the law perfectly and his reward is owed him by God.
Abraham was not (2) the disobedient man for he did obey, Hebrews 11:8.17. God does not justify the ungodly, Exodus 23:7
Abraham must have been the obedient believer (3).[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yet if one quits hearing and following Christ he shall perish.

If one perishes he was not a recipient of the promise; for the promise is that "they shall never perish."

1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12 are just two verses that prove one can choose to quit hearing and following Christ.

Nevertheless, they only apply to those who have mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel; a lukewarm, nominal, or shallow faith.

There is a faith that immediately brings everlasting life (i.e. life that will never come to an end; i.e. salvation that cannot be lost), according to John 6:47; and this faith is mentioned in Romans 10:10; Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13.

Jeremiah 32:40 is a prophecy of the NT covenant. It does not say that apostasy will be impossible,

Of course apostasy is not impossible for one who does not fear the Lord. For one who fears the Lord, the kjv says that they shall not depart from Him, because of that for ever fear (see also Psalms 19:9; and the passage that we are also looking at is Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

Jeremiah in saying "they may not depart" means that when Christianity comes, it will not depart. People will become Christians and there will always be Christians until the end of time, Christianity will be perpetual upon earth and not depart. This GROUP called Christian will always exist, people will become part of the group and others will fall from the group, but the group will continue to exist. And as long as Christianity continues then this new covenant will not be broken, that is, it will be everlasting.

In departing from the kjv you have heaped to yourself a teacher to tell you what your itching ears want to hear. And your interpretation is faulty to say the least.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Only those that do the will of the Father are the ones who enter the kingdom. Just saying "Lord, Lord" is vain without doing the will of God. Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Those works those people were doing in v22 were not the will of the Father. Jesus calls their work "iniquity".
I have seen many TV evangelists claim the work they are doing is the will of God when it is not. There is almost innumerous number of false teachers claiming they are doing the will of God. What they are doing, they are doing without Christ's authority.

Where is their power coming from then?

Also, doing the will of the Father, biblically, is the sure result of being saved, and therefore if someone doesn't do His will, it is the sure thing that they aren't saved. But Matthew 7:21 is in no way teaching that salvation is of works. Because that would be in contradiction to Ephesians 2:9 and context; as well as Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6 (kjv).

The clear language of Hebrews 5:9 is Christ saves those who obey Him. The verse does not mention Melchizedec, the pronoun 'he' in verse 9 refers back to the nearest antecedent "Son" in verse 8.

Let's take a look at it shall we:

Heb 5:6, As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7, Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8, Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9, And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Anyone who understand English sentence structure will see that the "Who" in verse 7 is referring to Melchizedec; which makes the rest of the passage about him.

Also if you want to apply it to Jesus, you have to ask yourself the question, was Jesus made perfect? wasn't He already perfect since He is the Lord God?

The ONLY Work Paul eliminates here

Paul does not eliminate any works. He includes as works that do not save, every kind of work; which includes works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

This means "worketh not" is the person who is disobedient and not keeping God's law.

No, worketh not is referring to the person who does nothing in any kind of attempt to earn his salvation. Works done in order to earn salvation, the reward is not reckoned of grace but as debt...and the Lord will not owe any thing to any man. He offers salvation to us as a free gift (Romans 5:15-19); and does not require any thing in return for that gift. Of course, the gift itself is righteousness and love; both of which are unselfish and giving by nature.

God does not justify the ungodly, Exodus 23:7

That verse says that God will not justify the wicked. I contend that there is a difference between wicked and ungodly.

It is clear from Romans 4:5 that the Lord justifies the ungodly, who else would it be that we are to trust in/believe on?
 
Last edited:

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Likewise, if there is a condition placed on receiving a gift (other than receiving it)...it isn't free.

Hebrews 11:7 the saving of Noah's house was by God's grace yet God required Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark to procure that grace. Noah's obedient work earned him nothing but a necessary condition he had to meet to receive God's grace.

John 6:27 Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting lie which the Son of man GIVES. Everlasting life is something Jesus gives, it's free yet Jesus said to work for everlasting life. In the context believing is the work one must do conditionally to receive the free gift of everlasting life.

A radio/tv "preacher" was pushing Luther's faith only philosophy. At the end of his speech he offered his listeners a free booklet. To get this absolutely free booklet just send him your name and address. But according to his own so called "logic" if you do the work of sending your name and address then you are earning the booklet...it is no longer free. Yet this "preacher" understood that you sending your name and address to him was a necessary condition that had to be met before you could receive the free booklet. But he refused to apply that same logic to obeying God's will. Obedience does not earn God's free gift but a necessary condition that first must be met.

Those that have allowed themselves to follow Luther's faith onlyism cannot, will not see this for if they did they would have to make radical changes to what they believe.


justbyfaith said:
I beg to differ...those who have not yet come to faith are under the OT (and NT) law...per Galatians 3:23-24:

No one today is required to keep the OT law, not required to offer animal sacrifices, not required to keep the purification laws, not required to keep the pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc. Hebrews 10:9 Christ took away the first that He may establish the second.

The word "faith" in Galatians 3:23 refers to the NT gosle. the NT system of faith and not to anyone's personal faith. Therefore in Gal 3:23 Paul is making a contrast between "faith" (NT gospel) and the OT law. BEFORE faith came, that is, before the NT came men were under the OT law. The OT law was a schoolmaster but after faith (NT gospel) is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster (OT law). No one is under the OT law for Christ made all dead to that law on His cross taking it out of the ay making in in active, ineffective.

In Romans 7:1-4 Paul condemns the idea of keeping both the OT law and NT law at the same time. He compares it to an adulteress woman married to two husbands at the same time.


justbyfaith said:
Romans 4:6 is clear that God imputeth righteousness without (apart from) works.

Romans 4:6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"

The only works Paul eliminates from being justified in Romans chapters 1-4 are the perfect flawless works required by the OT law. The Jew would try and keep the law perfectly so he could stand perfectly justified before God but the problem was the Jews would always end up breaking the law and sin.

In the context of Romans 6:4 Paul speaks of David, a Jew. David did not keep the OT law he lived under perfectly, he sinned. Hence He was imputed righteousness apart from the flawless works required by the OT law that he lived under. So if he was not justified by works of the OT law then he must have been justified by an obedient faith. David was a very obedient person, Psalms 119. Though David sinned he was obedient to God in repenting of his sins Psalms 51. Your signature line quotes Psalms 51:3 showing David was obedient.

Romans 4:7 "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." Whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered? The disobedient impenitent man or the obedient repentant man? The obedient repentant man as David.


justbyfaith said:
I don't believe that. You can avoid a lot of trouble by proclaiming that is is a living faith alone that saves.

It has been said that "we are saved by faith alone...but faith that saves is never alone."

In other words, living and saving faith produces works...however, clearly, Ephesians 2:9 and context, along with a few other passages, will tell you that those works do not save. It does not say, "except for those works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit."

That saying is completely contradictory for faith cannot be both 'alone' and 'not alone' at the same time.

The Bible ties faith and works so closely together that faith is a work. Mark 2:1-5 the men did the work of removing the roof and lowered a sick man down to Jesus in the house where Jesus was teaching...."And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." What was it that Jesus saw that is called faith? The works those men did is called faith.


justbyfaith said:
No, he didn't. Chapter and verse, please.
Romans 6:16
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
Pauls' point being is that we each are obeying one of two masters. We each are serving either:
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

Luther's faith onlyism eliminates a person from serving #2 [obedience unto righteous] leaving one serving sin unto death.


justbyfaith said:
Romans 4:5 shows us a generic example of one who is justified as an ungodly person because of his faith...and in the verse the person who is justified "worketh not".

Get your bicycle...we are about to run in circles.

I'm not going in circles but in a straight line.
FACT: Abraham did do obedient works per Hebrews 11:8,17
FACT: Romans 4:5 therefore cannot eliminate obedience else a contradiction arises.
FACT: the only work Paul eliminated in Romans 1-5 from justifying both Jew and Gentile were the flawless works required by the OT law. Even though the Jews were given that law and having it was an advantage over the Gentile it did them no good when it came to justification for it left the Jew no better than the Gentile Romans 3:9. What does justify is faith, not works of the OT law, Romans 3:28 so Paul is contrasting work of the OT law versus an obedient faith. Trying to get Romans 4:5 to eliminate all works has you going in circles.
 
Last edited:

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
justbyfaith said:
In Galatians 3:1-7, it says nothing about "NT law"...unless you are referring to the "law (or principle) of faith" in Romans 3:27.

Judiazing teachers had convinced some Christians in Galatia to leave the NT gospel and go back to the OT law to be justified. Paul is condemning those Galatians for doing such. They had left the NT gospel for a false gospel, Galatians 1:6-9. If the OT law could justify one, then Christ died in vain, Galatians 2:21. The OT law required flawless law keeping to be justified and Paul is telling those Galatians you cannot do it, you can't keep the OT law perfectly. Paul tells them in Galatians 3:12 the OT law is not of faith but in them that do them. Faith did not matter under the OT law when it came to being perfectly justified before God, what matter was what one did in keeping the law perfectly, that is what made one justified before God under the OT law. One must keep the WHOLE law to be justified Galatians 5:3.

Gal 3:1 when Paul tells these Galatians they had quit obeying the truth it means they had quit obeying the NT law and for they had allowed those Judaizers take them back to the OT law. The NT is something that must be obeyed to be saved and some in Galatians had quit obeying the NT to return back to the OT law. Hence they had fallen from grace, Galatians 5:4 for they had fallen from the NT system of justification through grace and obedient faith and returned to the OT law that required flawless law keeping to be justified.

And in Galatians 3:1-7 Paul is contrasting the NT law from the OT law:
--works of the OT law vs. hearing of faith (NT)
--begun in the Spirit (NT law) vs. perfected by flesh (OT requirement of flawless law keeping)


justbyfaith said:
Law and grace are mutually exclusive.

In Romans 6, Paul's response to the idea one Is saved by grace alone is God forbid. Because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian the right to sin, break God's law. If one is not keeping Christ's NT law then one is serving sin unto death Romans 6:16. So it takes both God's grace and man's obedience in keeping Christ's NT to be justified. God's grace is needed when man fails to keep Christ's NT. The Christian can obediently repent as required by Christ's NT law and God graciously forgives. Grace will not be received by the disobedient impenitent law breaking for he is serving sin unto death and not obedience unto righteousness.

So justification takes both God's grace and man's obedience in keeping Christ's NT law, grace and obedience go together like hand in glove.


justbyfaith said:
If that is how you define NT law, then fine...I was assuming that your definition of the NT law was the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:20-49)...which includes the OT law, btw...Matthew 5:17-20.



Galatians 3:22 and Galatians 6:13 might tell you differently.

continued in post #281(Galatians 5)

Ephesians 5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."


2 Peter 3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."


The NT church, the Christian is holy, without spot, without blemish without wrinkle, blameless. How can Christians who sin be without spot, blemish or wrinkle? 1 John 1:7 "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light, then the blood of Christ continues to wash away all sins. That continual washing away of all sins is what keeps the Christian without spot, blemish or wrinkle. But to continue to walk in the light takes a faithful obedience on part of the Christian.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Where is their power coming from then?

Also, doing the will of the Father, biblically, is the sure result of being saved, and therefore if someone doesn't do His will, it is the sure thing that they aren't saved. But Matthew 7:21 is in no way teaching that salvation is of works. Because that would be in contradiction to Ephesians 2:9 and context; as well as Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, and Romans 11:5-6 (kjv).

1) how do we know that actually were performing miracles they CLAIMED to be? Mant tv evangelists calim to perform miracles when they are not.
2) Pharaoh's men were able to do what seem miraculous but is was not by the power of God.

Matt 7:21 one must do the Father's will THEN one can enter the kingdom. You have it backwards, you try to fist find a way to get one in the kingdom through disobedience THEN after one is already in the kingdom one can do obedience.

justbyfaith said:
Let's take a look at it shall we:

Heb 5:6, As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7, Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8, Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9, And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Anyone who understand English sentence structure will see that the "Who" in verse 7 is referring to Melchizedec; which makes the rest of the passage about him.

Also if you want to apply it to Jesus, you have to ask yourself the question, was Jesus made perfect? wasn't He already perfect since He is the Lord God?
Hebrews 5:6-9
The pronouns "He" and "Him" in v9 refer back to the nearest antecedent which is "Son" of verse 8.
Christ being made perfect does not mean He was morally imperfect but His perfect obedience and suffering gave Him the qualifications to be a high Priest. Perfect here means finished, His perfect obedience to God while He was on earth finished what was needed for Him to be a Saviour.


justbyfaith said:
Paul does not eliminate any works. He includes as works that do not save, every kind of work; which includes works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul eliminate the prefect flawless works required by the OT from justification.
Romans 6:16-17 Paul required obedience to be justified (freed from sin)


justbyfaith said:
No, worketh not is referring to the person who does nothing in any kind of attempt to earn his salvation. Works done in order to earn salvation, the reward is not reckoned of grace but as debt...and the Lord will not owe any thing to any man. He offers salvation to us as a free gift (Romans 5:15-19); and does not require any thing in return for that gift. Of course, the gift itself is righteousness and love; both of which are unselfish and giving by nature.

"Worketh not" does excludes works one does to earn justification as it would exclude the perfect flawless works required by the OT. If one could keep all 600+ OT laws perfectly, then his reward would be of debt and not of grace, Romans 4:4.

But obedience to God's will ears nothing..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Luke 17:10. It is man's duty to obey God-keep God's commands but man will not be perfect in His obedience so even after obeying man will still be in need of grace since his obedience is not perfect. One cannot earn justification with an imperfect obedience, so man still needs grace



justbyfaith That verse says that God will not justify the wicked. I contend that there is a difference between wicked and ungodly. It is clear from Romans 4:5 that the Lord justifies the ungodly said:
Exodus 23:7
"wicked" according to Strong's means "râshâʻ, raw-shaw'; from H7561; morally wrong; concretely, an (actively) bad person:— condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong."

The Hebrew rasha translated "wicked" in Ex 23:7 is translated (KJV) "ungodly" in Psalm 1:1-6; Psalms 3:7; Psalms 73:12;
Translated "condemned" in Psalms 109:7.

Translated "guilty" in the NIV and NLT.

Nowhere ever did God justify the ungodly while they imepnitently remained ungodly. But when the ungodly obeyed, THEN God justifies them.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting lie which the Son of man GIVES. Everlasting life is something Jesus gives, it's free yet Jesus said to work for everlasting life.

Another verse that speaks of this is

Heb 4:11, Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I have interpreted this to mean that since faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17), it takes a certain amount of labour (work) in reading God's word, to be able to apply it so that it produces faith.

Obedience does not earn God's free gift but a necessary condition that first must be met.

Obedience is not a part of what obtains God's free gift. Salvation is "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9).

No one today is required to keep the OT law, not required to offer animal sacrifices, not required to keep the purification laws, not required to keep the pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc. Hebrews 10:9 Christ took away the first that He may establish the second.

All those who think that they are going to save themselves by what they do are indeed subject to the OT law...although there is no possible way in today's world that they can possibly measure up to it.

The word "faith" in Galatians 3:23 refers to the NT gospel. the NT system of faith and not to anyone's personal faith. Therefore in Gal 3:23 Paul is making a contrast between "faith" (NT gospel) and the OT law.

The word faith in Galatians 3:23 refers to the faith that we have as believers in Christ. Before we came to saving faith in Jesus Christ, we were all under the OT law...every last one of us.

No one is under the OT law for Christ made all dead to that law on His cross taking it out of the way making in in active, ineffective.

The OT law is still valid...not one jot or tittle will pass away from it until heaven and earth pass away, and all is fulfilled.

Galatians 3:23 shows clearly (although you would reject it with false teaching) that before faith came, we were all under OT law.

In Romans 7:1-4 Paul condemns the idea of keeping both the OT law and NT law at the same time. He compares it to an adulteress woman married to two husbands at the same time.

In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus, in His relating to us what is the NT law, shows that the OT law is included in it.
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only works Paul eliminates from being justified in Romans chapters 1-4 are the perfect flawless works required by the OT law.

Paul is talking about all kinds of works in Romans 4:5-6. Including works that are done in the power of the Holy Spirit. It should be clear that they are not salvational to us.

Though if we are saved, we will do works in the power of the Holy Ghost.

The works don't save (Ephesians 2:9); the faith that produces the works is what truly saves.

Your signature line quotes Psalms 51:3 showing David was obedient.

Actually, Psalms 51:3 is David admitting that he is a perpetual sinner.

FACT: the only work Paul eliminated in Romans 1-5 from justifying both Jew and Gentile were the flawless works required by the OT law.

Nevertheless, NT works include the works of the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20).

And also, there are no works that save a man (see again Ephesians 2:9).

Judiazing teachers had convinced some Christians in Galatia to leave the NT gospel and go back to the OT law to be justified.

I know that by NT gospel, you mean NT law. but NT law includes the law of the OT, in Matthew 5:17-20.

The OT law required flawless law keeping to be justified and Paul is telling those Galatians you cannot do it, you can't keep the OT law perfectly.

Indeed; and also, if anyone thinks that they are going to be justified by their works, the OT and NT law are both the standard by which holiness is measured. And if anyone doesn't keep the law (OT and NT) perfectly, they are under the curse (Galatians 3:10); but only if they have not placed their faith in the blood of Jesus Christ to save them but are trusting in their works in any capacity.

Gal 3:1 when Paul tells these Galatians they had quit obeying the truth it means they had quit obeying the NT law

Since the NT law includes the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20); how did they go back to the OT law? They were already in it.

for they had allowed those Judaizers take them back to the OT law.

If they were subject to the NT law, then they were also subject to the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20). So then, in being subject to the NT law, it would have been a no-step for them to take the step that the Judaizers wanted them to take.

The NT is something that must be obeyed to be saved

It is not unto salvation; it is the result of salvation: for salvation is not of works (Ephesians 2:9).

and some in Galatians had quit obeying the NT to return back to the OT law.

If they were obeying the NT, they were obeying the OT (Matthew 5:17-20).

And in Galatians 3:1-7 Paul is contrasting the NT law from the OT law:
--works of the OT law vs. hearing of faith (NT)
--begun in the Spirit (NT law)

which includes obeying the OT law (Matthew 5:17-20).

vs. perfected by flesh (OT requirement of flawless law keeping)

Which goes to show that if you are going to subject yourself to NT law, you are seeking to be perfected by the flesh.

God's grace is needed when man fails to keep Christ's NT. The Christian can obediently repent as required by Christ's NT law and God graciously forgives.

Except that if anyone is trusting in their works to save them, they are under the law (OT and NT), and therefore Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48 applies.

The NT church, the Christian is holy, without spot, without blemish without wrinkle, blameless. How can Christians who sin be without spot, blemish or wrinkle? 1 John 1:7 "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light, then the blood of Christ continues to wash away all sins. That continual washing away of all sins is what keeps the Christian without spot, blemish or wrinkle. But to continue to walk in the light takes a faithful obedience on part of the Christian.

Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 6:13, For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The pronouns "He" and "Him" in v9 refer back to the nearest antecedent which is "Son" of verse 8.

"Son" of verse 8 refers back to Melchizedec in verse 6.

It is man's duty to obey God-keep God's commands but man will not be perfect in His obedience so even after obeying man will still be in need of grace since his obedience is not perfect.

And yet, if anyone is trusting in their works to save them, Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48 apply; and if they are trusting in their obedience to the NT law, then obedience to the OT law is also required (again, Matthew 5:17-20); and also, they are cursed if they continue not in all things which are written in the law to do them (whether OT or NT law...really both).

But when the ungodly obeyed, THEN God justifies them.

When the ungodly puts his faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for them on the Cross, that is when God justifies them; and surely obedience will follow (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5, 1 John 3:17-18).

I will contend here faithfully that salvation is not of works/obedience (Ephesians 2:9); but that a man is saved unto good works/obedience.

This is the teaching of holy scripture.

In Titus, I am given the instruction to reject a heretic after the first and second admonition. I sometimes go beyond this and admonish three or four times before I reject a man for his heresy.

But salvation by works is a heretical teaching and the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with a man for ever.

Therefore take warning and heed: adding your own teaching to what the word of the Lord says can prove disastrous for you in the long run if in doing so you are rejecting the plain teaching of holy scripture. And adding the concept that "works" does not mean every type of work (when the Bible tells us that salvation is not of works) qualifies as such.

Love in Christ,

@justbyfaith
 
Last edited: