Iconoclast

John Caldwell said:

Defend it and listen intently to the response. Criticism can do two things - it can help refine your position or it can give you insight to better defend your position. Only a fool despises criticism.

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Enoch111 said:

Perhaps not horrible, but definitely on the wrong track after some committed themselves to Calvinism rather than Bible truth (at least their seminary went whole hog and about 30% of their pastors). There were also a lot of compromises with liberalism, the Jesus Seminar, freemasonry, etc. within that denomination in the past.

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John Caldwell said:

Yes, we are just shy of satanic...good enough only to get in the gates of the Kingdom and that by God's grace alone. I'm actually surprised we are allowed on a "Christian" board, but I suppose a family doesn't get to pick its members.

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John Caldwell said:

Yes we are. Imagine how we would be if we were not saved.

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John Caldwell said:

I enjoy being here (just getting to know people).

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"ByGrace" said:

@John Caldwell

Interesting thread... I am sure you hit the nail on the head...I expect we all have a bit of that within us...more so if we say "I do not!" Sure sign that we do.

Id never heard of it.
I liked the way you shared about it in the natural...and then moved it into the spiritual of today ...

( I personally hate pictures of Jesus , they make me shudder )
But...
The the spiritual side of thing today...and how we feel it is our obligation to knock over the false idols that others hold...some even feel that somehow it is their God give right to do so , ( siting Jesus turning over the tables) and are nasty while doing it... that is a good message for everyone today...

BTW Love the dog avatar

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So agreeing here Helen, and not just because I love you ♥ How will they know that we are His followers?

John Caldwell said:

I believe we all need to be able to defend our position. We all should realize the opposing view will always find that defense lacking (otherwise they may be persuaded to change their view). Never defend your position to the satisfaction of other people. Defend it and listen intently to the response. Criticism can do two things - it can help refine your position or it can give you insight to better defend your position. Only a fool despises criticism.

What I call "attacking" is being malicious to other people. If you cannot find commands against this type of behavior I can help (just let me know).

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John Caldwell said:

Thank you. My wife and son were out of town. It was just me and the dog for a week. I cooked a meal worthy of dressing for dinner .
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John Caldwell said:

Hi Deborah,

I agree with you on many points here. Paul did not tear down their gods, but Paul also did not water down the gospel.

In evangelism I think it is more biblical to say something along the lines of “I do not hold your belief. This is what I believe...” and proceed with the message of the gospel.

We cannot lead people to repentance. God does that as a person becomes convicted of his or her sins and become sorrowful with a "godly sorrow" that leads to repentance.

When discussing disagreements among other Christians, I believe it more appropriate to say something along the lines of “let me see if I understand you correctly. I understand you to be saying _____”. Once you establish that understanding is not the issue, then “I disagree on a few points, namely _____”. What I believe is _____ and this is why _____”. And so forth.

Iconoclasts do not believe another person has the right to even disagree with their views. They do not believe that God has the power to change a person (in evangelism, an Iconoclasts’ gospel is powerless). They destroy in hopes that the other person has no choice but what they have to offer.

We all have, to some extent, our idols. And we will probably have them until the day we die. Often it is a leaning of our own understanding. We have to be gracious to people and share the gospel with them, allowing God to change lives – hopefully through our words and actions.

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John Caldwell said:

Well, I don't like traveling the same road twice within such a short span of time so if those are the only two options I guess I must be feeling insecure. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I am going to have a cup of coffee and try to regain my composure and security.

Such a long time to be gone and a short time to be there.

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Box of Rain! The Grateful Dead.

John Caldwell said:

In the 8th Century a "heresy" developed within Christianity called Iconoclastism. These people rejected to religious icons (religious images and monuments), which in itself was not a problem. The problem is that these "heretics" or Iconoclasts persecuted those who did not share this belief and sought to destroy images others cherished.

To illistrate, many people will not have a painting representing Christ or a cross on their homes. An Iconoclast believes he has a God given responsibility to remove these things from their neighbors homes.

Iconoclastism has come to extend to beliefs as well. Christian evangelism is sharing the gospel. Iconoclastism is attacking other beliefs and other belief systems.

To illustrate, when Paul was at the Acropolis he used the pagan view of an "unknown god" to evangelize. Were Paul an Iconoclast his focus would not have been to share the gospel but to first attack the beliefs held by his audience.

Within the Body of Christ we find this "heresy" as well. Christians are commanded not to judge the "servant of Another". Iconoclast demands this command be ignored in favor of tearing down and attacking any belief that they find in error.

This is, of course, is not to say we do not judge. We judge the things we accept. We judge those within our congregations. We guard our church against false doctrine as best we can. But we can only do kingdom work in kingdom ways. God does not bless disobedience regardless of intention.

I wonder how much Iconoclastism resides in us. I think I have a bit, if I am honest with myself. I think of John Owen's words - be killing sin or it will be killing you.

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John Caldwell said:

Yes, we are just shy of satanic...good enough only to get in the gates of the Kingdom and that by God's grace alone.

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John Caldwell said:

You are right, there have been issues within the SBC. One of the biggest, IMHO, is a drift to speak to everything under the sun rather than focus on the gospel.

What some (being that this is a broad group) may not know is that the SBC has no authority over churches that make up the Covention. Many (typically smaller) churches are concerned.

The issue is not churches but doctrine (as t bg e SBC controls its seminaries). There is far too much politics.

Anyway, I don't mean to get into all of that. I agree with you and was not at all offended by your comment. You are right.

Ain't nobody missin' with you but you (know that one, @Nancy ?) You've found my vice.

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Nope, had to look it up It was mostly friends who were into The Dead. But yeah, now I know your vice! Lol.

John Caldwell said:

lol...I know what you mean. I currently have an "unholy trinity" attached to me here.

Quite often people's hearts are revealed on these types of forums because there is no accountability - like children when the parents are away.

I try to remind myself that these are people for whom Christ died. Apart from Christ I am no better than they, probably worse. If I can keep this in mind then perhaps others who pass by can discern a contrast that demonstrates Christ in my life.

The hard part is the "old man" in me is never far behind. I try to bite my tongue, but after so much I'm afraid I'll bite it clean off.

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shnarkle said:

Christ comes in the likeness of sinful flesh to kill sin in the flesh. Christ meets us in our sinful state. Paul talks to pagans in terms they can understand. He meets them on their turf, and brings them home.

The modern day Christian tends to preach into an echo chamber instead. So anyone who can't understand what they're saying is just out of luck, or perhaps just in luck as the case may be.

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