Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

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101G

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Space, matter, and time.

Gas, liquid, solid.

The shamrock. :D
First thanks for the reply, second, no shamrock here, maybe for you. but he, JESUS, is "THE ROCK", no sham with this Rock, see Deuteronomy 32:4.

For our Rock created Space, Time, and Matter........... and some of that matter includes you.......... :eek: oh yes, it matters.

hasta la vista "shamrock" J......... :D

PICJAG.
 
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Grailhunter

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The concepts of the Trinity in motion

Note: Feel free to verify all scriptural references in your own favorite translation.

This is a topic that is easy to prove because it connects to hundreds of scriptures, which will be sited directly and or indirectly through this discussion. Then again, the history of the evolution of the various doctrines of the Trinity and the associated religious politics is another thing, that could be a book in itself. Still worthy of study because it involves the thoughts and beliefs of the Early Church Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils. But here I am only going to touch on that. Further more take note that the term Trinity is a theological term coined by men, that never occurs in the Holy Bible.

Most Christian denominations proclaim a belief in the Trinity, its existence is certain, it is the details that vary. Some define the Trinity as three persons in one God, some turn the perspective around and believe that the Trinity is one God with three aspects. Some reduce the Trinity to a duo, the Holy Spirit merely being the projection of Yahweh or Yeshua’s spirit. Then there are those that believe Yeshua is the “one” and only God...representing three aspects of God or even Christ being the God that created the Heavens and Earth. (This was covered with the discussion of the Gospel of John.) Which would pretty much invalidate the entire Old Testament and the Apostle’s Creed, where God the Father is the creator, or even the concept of God being the Father. Now this concept places the Son as the Father! Oddly enough, the “confusion factor” is a “qualifying condition” in this time period, thinking if it makes no sense or cannot be understood, it is of God! This is an interesting topic in itself.

Debates over what the Trinity meant, and or what it is, have continued throughout the centuries. The winning point always has been and is, that the Gospels clearly document the presence, actions, communications, and movements of three persons. But the most commonly accepted doctrine of the Trinity, is that there are three persons in one God, called God, named God. This is the larger intent and underlying reason for this doctrine of the Trinity, and that is to say “one God” not Gods. This is the political element of the doctrine of the Trinity. That is to change the names of the Gods to God. To effectively change their names to a spiritual position. At which point they can manipulate it very easily. The political side of this being that, when they took God’s name (Tetragrammaton) out of the Old Testament and replaced it with Lord or God, they could argue that the Trinity was a functional trio in the Old Testament….because God is now Their name! There by nullifying the old arguments that the character of the God of the Old Testament was different than the God of the New Testaments.

But, but, but, as with many official doctrines, what the regional churches and the people believed, were many times different. There is an abstract of “one” but very few believed and today believe that the Trinity is characterized as being an individual presence, personality, or thought, even though the ruling was that they were of the same substance and nature.

The problem with these assumptions is that the scriptures do not support these beliefs. The Church’s frustrations with the scriptures led them to actually adding verses to certain Bibles to clarify their point and add authority to their doctrine. The most well known of these forged scriptures is called “the Comma Johanneum Addition.”

The Comma Johanneum as it is referred to, originated as a common literary explanation or formula for the Trinity. The first discussion of the Comma may have been around the 2nd or 3rd century. Some mention a connection with some of the early church fathers, like Cyprian which debated the oneness concepts of the Trinity. It first appeared in written form during the 4th century in the Latin homily Liber Apologeticus, which was probably written by Priscillian of Avila. This theological formula was circulated from then on, but was not accepted, or at least was not quoted by most of the early Church Fathers in which there was a continual disagreement on the construct of the Trinity.

At some point this short summary of the Trinity made its way into the margin notes of some of the manuscripts that were written after the 5th century. Unlike other examples of popular margin notes that made their way into the scriptures, the Comma Johanneum found its way into the verses of the Bible by way of another avenue. After the early 16th century, the Byzantines began to recopy and retranslate the available Greek texts of the New Testament. At this point some of these copies became known as the “Textus Receptus.” ---Erasmus--- It was in some of these that the formula was added and then later included in some of the Bibles. Most notably the King James Version, which relied heavily on these texts. On the 2nd of June 1927, Pope Pius XI decreed that the Comma Johanneum was open to dispute. The updated " Nova Vulgata" edition of the Vulgate, published in 1979 as a result of the Second Vatican Council, does not include the Comma. In the Catholic study bible I have that was printed around 1960 it includes a combination of these two scriptures, with a side note that explains that it is a re-phrasing of the scriptures by the Holy See, as it is his prerogative.

As it happened the Comma Johanneum Addition was much more than a re-translation, or an addition, but rather a replacement of the original scriptures with a popular theological statement. They kept the verse numbers in sequence so that it would not be as noticeable.

The scriptures involved are 1st John 5:6-8. The original scriptures read as follows... (Quoting 6 through 8, so it can be read in context)

“6. This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 7. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8. And it is the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

This was replaced with what came to be called the Comma Johanneum Addition.

6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7: For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8: And there are three that bear witness in Earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

As one can see there is no chance that this is simply a different translation, but rather a removal of the scriptures and an insertion of a known theological statement for an intended purpose. Of course and again, there is no question that the Trinity exists, just that the Bible does not support the Ecumenical Council's formula for the Trinity. And this is the larger problem, if everybody changes the scriptures to what they believe, then we do not get an accurate reading of the Word of God, but instead a denominational sermon. The Comma Johanneum Addition is a good illustration of the frustration that some had with trying to promote their beliefs and to what extent they would go to, to promote their beliefs above and over the Bible. This is not a unique observation but rather the option of many scholars and most of the well known reference material explains the Trinity as more of a doctrine than a biblical teaching.

For example:
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary, explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.”

 
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Grailhunter

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The Truth is, the Trinity is not the merging or mixing of three entities into one, like you would a cake mix, nor is it a three headed God. It is a condition and a reality that is beyond our understanding, but in loose terms..... I believe and define that there are three Gods in one Godhead which exists simultaneously in an unexplainable spiritual condition of union, that allows for the sharing of traits, principles, powers and abilities, but prevents any possibility of disagreement. Still, this being true, they have their own individual presence, minds, will, and characters. Three Gods that can sit side by side on three thrones. (I am not going to address spiritual thrones thing, it is just referenced that way in the Bible.) The Trinity makes sense, the scriptures that describe Them, make sense. The following discussion includes scriptures that speak of the Trinity as it is referenced in the Gospels. So we are going to put this in to motion as reality and the truth will become clear as we move through the story of Christ's mission in the Gospels.

1. If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God and that position although important is second to God the Father. Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

2. If one had to leave before the other could come, as in the case of the Holy Spirit, this would suggest individuality.

3. If there is any conversation at all between the three entities; that would indicate some individuality.

4. If the conversation included a request, like Yeshua asking His Father to bypass the cup (so-to-speak); it indicates individuality and hierarchy.

5. If the conversation is in the form of a pray. For example; Our Father which art in Heaven.....But the Son was standing before them. This indicates individuality and hierarchy.

6. If one God refers to Himself or other as Son or one refers to Himself as Father or the other as Father, this indicates individuality and hierarchy. This is particularly significant because this is a self defined and self described definition by God Himself. God decided to define their positions as God the Father and God the Son. God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son….

It was God that chose to describe Himself as a Father, so we could understand our relationship with Him and His relationship with His Son, in human terms. There is a clear authoritative aspect associated with the Father. There is no possible way of mistaking this relationship as equal or the same person. Yeshua was the begotten Son of God. God did not begot Himself.

7.…Again, for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son...John 3:16 There is no part of this verse that suggest that He begot Himself, or sent Himself, or that his Son was Him. The meaning of the verse is that, it took a lot of love for God to offer His real Son as a sacrifice for the world. This verse is talking about two Gods. God the Father, gave His Son.

8. If a person can sin against one God worse than the other...as in the case of the un-pardonable sin. This indicates separation of some sort as well as a very special uniqueness in regard to the Holy Spirit.

9. If Yeshua said, “...the father is greater than I.” John 14:28 --- then this is proof of His understanding of individuality and hierarchy.

10. Matthew 20:20….Mark 10:35…When asked by the mother of John and James if they could sit on the right and the left of Christ in the kingdom to come, One of the things Christ said to her (them) was “....this is not Mine to give....” This would indicate that it was someone else’s to give...another God...Not Himself and higher authority. This point is further exemplified by John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and hath given all things into His hands. John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God, and was going back to God; Giving and receiving occurs between two persons and so does coming from the Father and going to the father. There is no going or coming if you are one person. These verses indicate hierarchy and individuality.

11. If the conversation includes an element of surprise, like when Yeshua was on the cross and asked His Father why He had forsaken Him. This would be strong evidence of individuality.

12. If the conversation indicates disparity of location and movement between the two deities, such as ascended to my Father, I came forth from the Father, or because I go to the Father, this would all indicate individuality, hierarchy, and different location.

13. If one knows something that the other does not, like in Matt. 24:36 where Yeshua said, He did not know when the “end of the age” would occur, only the Father knew. This definitely indicates some form of individuality and very conclusive that we are not talking about a single mind.

14. If the Son was sent by the Father. This indicates individuality and hierarchy of authority. One person sent somewhere by another.

15. If Christ said, (John 5:30) “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” The statement regarding the will of the one Who sent Him, occurs in other verses. John 6:38 & 39 Matt 12:50. Then there is Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” This is a request from one person to another and a designation of two separate wills... “not what I will, but what thou wilt.” The wills and minds of two Gods.

16. The Apostle’s Creed defines God the Father as the creator of Heaven and Earth....not Christ....not the Holy Spirit, and not the three of them.

17. “The My Father verses” are the most prevalent and best examples of Yeshua’s relationship with Yahweh. Over fifty times in the Gospels Yeshua refers to Yahweh as “My Father.” As far as understanding the interconnecting relationship between Yeshua and Yahweh these verse are very important to understand in content, context, and perspective. In most of these verses the differences between Yahweh and Yeshua are expressed, either by hierarchy, authority, interaction, or physical location. In John 2:16, Yeshua indicates that the Temple is His Father’s house.....not His. Christ never indicates that the Temple belongs to Him, the temple belongs to another. Nor did Christ ever suggest that after He left they should worship Him in the Temple. In John 14:2 Christ tells of a place that would await the Apostles. He says, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” Note that He is not saying, His house. In 14 of the “My Father” verses, Yeshua refers to Yahweh as the Father in Heaven, precisely written, “Father which is in Heaven.” In 7 of these verses He is referring to His Father in Heaven, worded “Father in Heaven.” So Christ was standing on Earth referring to God the Father in Heaven, two different places. In John 5:37 Christ says, “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at anytime, nor seen His form.” In this verse one should understand that it takes someone else to bare witness of another, and the voice and form they were hearing and seeing then, was not that of God the Father. In Matthew 18:10, where Christ was warning not to offend the “little one”....Christ indicates that their Angels constantly behold the face of Yahweh...in Heaven. Now surely, there is an understanding of the concept of omni-presence, but if you notice, Christ is not saying, they behold My face, or Our faces. Throughout the storyline of the Gospel Christ makes it clear that He and His Father are in two different places. Christ’s overall mission on Earth is to fulfill the will of God which is Yahweh....and he makes it clear that Yahweh, His Father sent Him. Yeshua never said in the Gospels that He sent Himself or came on His own behalf, or was doing His own will, or begot Himself. Over 40 times Christ says in the Gospels that His Father sent Him. This denotes the higher authority of the Father and that His Father is another person at a different place. In several verses Christ indicates that God the Father gives or appoints certain things to Him. To appoint or give is an indication of hierarchy, authority, and an indication of two positions, given and received. You will not find a scripture where Christ says He gave anything to the Father, it is not His position to give. He is not going to send the Father anywhere. Other examples, Christ would not say, I gave Myself, all things, nor would He say that He loved Himself. In John 10:17, Christ says, “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.” The same is true of honor or glory. Honor is a heartfelt expression from one person to another. Christ does not honor Himself. John 8:54, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God. All three of these expressions describe something happening from one....to....another. God the Father and God the Son, two different positions. One senior to the other. Thinking and acting independently.

18. There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified, or that they were crucified together, or that all three were crucified. Christ the God was crucified and ascended to His Father. From one place to another.


 
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Grailhunter

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19. While Christ walked on earth in the Gospels, He referred to His Father which in Heaven...God the Father and God the Son in two locations. Individual presence

Matthew 5:16
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 6:1
Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 10:32
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.


The True concept of “oneness” is really not a matter of arithmetic. In modern times we are all about numbers, but a modern first grader would know more about numbers than most of the people of antiquity. The concept of one had a symbology in that time period, not just the literal one, but also the concept of “unity.” The word “one” in regard to relationships can also mean solidarity. Again, in relation to the Trinity it is the unity and the solidarity, in mind, in heart, and in spirit between Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.

God the Father gives us in Genesis 2:24 an idea of how the concept of two people being one can be applied; “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” Yeshua reiterates this concept in Mathew 19:5 & 6 and Mark 10:8, specifically saying, “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” Certainly everyone understands that husbands and wives do not merge to be one physical human, nor do they loose their character. They certainly join physically but they are not absorbed into one person, even though the condition of solidarity may exist between them. So in that case the word one is not denoting “the number one” or the singularity of the two persons in the marriage.

Beyond what is listed in the examples above, in the New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the concept of one. Speaking to God the Father (He is not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church.

And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

The same is true of the Godhead, in this case three, but if there would have been a hundred named Gods that talked with each other and did all the above, the Church would have labeled them one in order to get their theology to work. Certainly multiple persons in one God is a difficult concept, but the more persons the more difficult the concept becomes. If there would have been eight, sixty, or a hundred persons it would have been a concept near to impossible to convey.

The first documented time the word Trinity was used in relations to Christianity was written in the second century. (Now, the definitions that follow are not that hard to lookup and for anyone that is truly interested, I recommend it.) The Greek word used for Trinity was Τριάς, meaning "a set of three." The only meaning of one in this definition was that it was one set of three. As time went on and the Church’s definition for the word Trinity changed, the next word for Trinity came from two Latin words. Trinitas, meaning, "the number three” and Unitas, meaning, unity; state of being one or undivided · sameness, uniformity · agreement, concord. Latin is a very “loose” language, it has a few meanings. Within the meaning of this word the Church could fit its new definition. The English word for Trinity, in the Webster’s Dictionary references Old French and Latin, and I quote..... “1. a set of three persons or things that form a unit. 2. in Christian theology, the union of three divine persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one Godhead.” end quote..... Which is exactly the definition of the Trinity.

The biblical testament of the authority of the Father has always been a thorn in the side of the Church’s doctrine of the Trinity, because hands down, the Old Testament and Christ Himself testified clearly and definitively, of the authority of the Father, over a hundred times, dozens of these coming from Christ Himself. On the other hand, these biblical proofs of the authority of God the Father in no way conflict with beliefs regarding the Trinity. In the Old Testament it is easy to see that Yahweh proclaims Himself as the ultimate authority and does not define Himself as a trio. In the New Testament after Yahweh begets a Son, His Son repeatedly attests to the authority of the Father. Numeral count of the three Gods occur as the Gospels progress, but descriptions or discussions regarding the trio of Gods does not occur until after Christ ascends to Heaven, and rightly so, the trio did not form until He ascended to Heaven. At which time, God the Father still remains the ultimate authority and all three have equal authority over us. The Truth makes sense. The Shield of the Trinity is still compatible as a representation of a Godhead, in that the God in center is that spiritual unity. But still I see people scratching their heads over it

1aaattrinity.jpg
 
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101G

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"THE ONLY TRUE GOD, JESUS/YESHUA"

John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".

JESUS is the only true God who holds both titles, "Father" (without flesh and bones), Spirit and "Son" with (flesh and bones), the diversified spirit. when the Lord Jeus said, John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". who was sent was GOD himself, listen. Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". ok, WHO CAME? answer, GOD. and God is "a" Spirit. hold that thought,

the Only TRUE God is the diversified God, meaning the EQUAL another of himself. this is the plurality of GOD coming in flesh. example, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

now we ask, is this two separate and distinct "PERSONS?", God and the Father. see that conjunction "AND" there between "God", and the "Father", this is the same "and", or conjunction between "God", and "Jesus Christ in John 17:3. meaning that this is the TRUE GOD in his plurality as another of himself manifested on Earth in linear time in flesh and blood. because the Lord Jesus said something else. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." well what was Jesus before the World was? the "Spirit". and God is a,a,a,a Spirit, meaning only ONE Spirit. so, Jesus is that ONE Spirit before the world was.

another thing, if one say Jesus is the second person in the Godhead and is suppose to be Co-equal, and is not the true God, then one have three, or at least two Gods in the Godhead that is false then. for God is a,a,a, ONE Spirit, and if the Spirit is not let's say it again, if the Spirit is "NOT" ............ "TRUE", then all the Person in the Godhead is false, meaning, not true. if the Spirit is true then all, (which it's only one), in the Godhead then are all is TRUE.

you cain't have it both ways, either all the so-called EQUAL persons in trinity is TRUE, or they all are FALSE.

because if one say Jesus is not the Father, then you're saying that he is a false God. and that's anit bible.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply. second, we must disagree with your assessment,
It is a condition and a reality that is beyond our understanding
the bible says we can know, see Romans 1:19 & 20.
I believe and define that there are three Gods in one Godhead which exists simultaneously in an unexplainable spiritual condition of union, that allows for the sharing of traits, principles, powers and abilities, but prevents any possibility of disagreement
this is anti bible. listen, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any". so that eliminated your assessment of the Godhead, we need not to go any futher.

PICJAG.
 

Grailhunter

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GINOLJC, to all. First thanks for the reply. second, we must disagree with your assessment,

the bible says we can know, see Romans 1:19 & 20.

this is anti bible. listen, Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any". so that eliminated your assessment of the Godhead, we need not to go any futher.

PICJAG.

John 16:12
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
 
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shnarkle

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The concepts of the Trinity in motion
This is the larger intent and underlying reason for this doctrine of the Trinity, and that is to say “one God” not Gods. This is the political element of the doctrine of the Trinity. That is to change the names of the Gods to God.

I think the biggest problem in dealing with the doctrine of the Trinity is in forgetting that it is just a doctrine.

The other problem is in ignoring much of scripture in order to form the doctrine. The Shema states: "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one". In the Hebrew it is "Hear O Israel, "the YEHOVAH" (i.e. "I will be";'I will be what I will be "etc.) your Elohim (i.e. the plural form of God which really should require a plural verb, e.g." the lord your gods ARE One") is One". This "one" isn't necessarily one in number, but in being complete, whole, perfect, etc.

Paul elaborates on the Shema in 1 Corinthians 8:6 where he distinguishes between God who is the origin of all that exists (e.g. "OF WHOM"), and Christ who is the means by which everything comes into existence (e.g. "BY WHOM").

It necessarily and logically follows that every thing that comes into existence originates in God, and yet the origin of existence cannot logically exist without creating an infinite regression, and a contradiction in terms.

The bible points this out for us with the name itself, e.g. "I will be" or "I will be what I will be" denotes potentiality, or becoming, whereas Christ denotes "I am" which is what is manifest of or from God.

So Christ is not God in that Christ is not the origin, but Christ is God in that Christ manifests God, or God is manifest through Christ. Christ is manifesting, or some might say the manifestation of God.


The thing to remember here is that by manifesting God, Christ is not manifesting any thing. God is not a "thing" or a "what". God is simply the origin or source of existence in Paul's articulation of the Shema.

This is right in line with the introduction to John's gospel where he points out that "all things are created", and God is not any thing. John doesn't begin with "in the beginning was God" because the only thing one can begin with is time, and the word is eternal being. One can't begin anything potentially, but necessarily must begin with what already exists. In this case, existence or being itself.
 

101G

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your Elohim (i.e. the plural form of God which really should require a plural verb, e.g." the lord your gods ARE One") is One". This "one" isn't necessarily one in number, but in being complete, whole, perfect, etc.
that don't make any sense. he already stated that he's a numerical one, I. but he have shown his plural form to come in "First" and "Last", see Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12, just for starters.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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I believe and define that there are three Gods

James 2:19 tells us that we would do well to believe that there is one God.

If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God

Christ is the Father. The Father descended from eternity into time and creation and took on human flesh; and as such is a distinct Person from His former self. That He now sits at the right hand of His former self is referring to a position that speaks of being exalted and filled with the pleasure of the Lord. Psalms 16:11.

There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified,

I beg to differ.

Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25, Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead is God the Father, see Romans 10:9 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.

But it is clear from this scripture that this Person was delivered up for our offences.

The following scripture also implies that the Father died for us:

Heb 9:16, For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17, For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18, Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19, For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21, Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


The concept of one had a symbology in this time period, not just the literal one, but also the concept of “unity.” The word “one” in regard to relationships can also mean solidarity.

Nevertheless, when scripture says (James 2:19) that we do well to believe in one God, he is not speaking of a solidarity within God; but a Oneness in the Personality of God.

The other problem is in ignoring much of scripture in order to form the doctrine.

I have formed the doctrine out of scripture, in the first four posts of this thread. I will provide a link shortly.

Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.
 

101G

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The "diversified" God in the OT.

let's see this diversity of the Lord God, our Father, JESUS, in the OT prophets. God mention his "diversity" in the minor prophets also.

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".

many know this verse cross reference with Matthews 26:31, & Mark 14:27, but what many miss is that this is a diversified oneness verse. let's reveal it.

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".

who is this man that is God fellow?. what do "fellow" here mean?. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

FELLOW: H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

Well, well, well, "another" of God as a MAN? yes God shared, or "diversified" in flesh per John 1:14, and backed up by G243 allos which confirmed this "ANOTHER of God or his "Diversity". and notice also what the definition also revels,

2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man. concretely?, a kindred man? yes. concretly? meaning "VISIBLE", in flesh per John 1:14. and kindred man? yes, God in flesh shared as the "ANOTHER" of himself, the Offspring. let's see it. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".

the word "OFFSPRING", it's the Greek word, G1085 γ?νος genos (je'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

there he is... "kin", the "kind(-red)", the KINSMAM REDEEMER, our Saviour, JESUS the Christ. the offspring, or as the OT prophet Isaiah said, the "LAST".

well, well, well, this man who is God fellow is "ANOTHER", of God himself shared in flesh is the KINSMAN REDEEMER, the offspring, the Last to his own FIRST, or ROOT.



Diversity is everywhere in the bible, Old and New Testament. WE SUGGEST ONE RE-READ THIS POST.



PICJAG.
 

Grailhunter

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that don't make any sense. he already stated that he's a numerical one, I. but he have shown his plural form to come in "First" and "Last", see Isaiah 41:4, Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12, just for starters.

PICJAG.

Oh I am sorry are you Jew?
 
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Grailhunter

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James 2:19 tells us that we would do well to believe that there is one God.



Christ is the Father. The Father descended from eternity into time and creation and took on human flesh; and as such is a distinct Person from His former self. That He now sits at the right hand of His former self is referring to a position that speaks of being exalted and filled with the pleasure of the Lord. Psalms 16:11.



I beg to differ.

Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25, Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead is God the Father, see Romans 10:9 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.

But it is clear from this scripture that this Person was delivered up for our offences.

The following scripture also implies that the Father died for us:

Heb 9:16, For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17, For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18, Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19, For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21, Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22, And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.




Nevertheless, when scripture says (James 2:19) that we do well to believe in one God, he is not speaking of a solidarity within God; but a Oneness in the Personality of God.



I have formed the doctrine out of scripture, in the first four posts of this thread. I will provide a link shortly.

Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

I don't see anything here that bests what I have posted.
 

Grailhunter

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The "diversified" God in the OT.

let's see this diversity of the Lord God, our Father, JESUS, in the OT prophets. God mention his "diversity" in the minor prophets also.

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".

many know this verse cross reference with Matthews 26:31, & Mark 14:27, but what many miss is that this is a diversified oneness verse. let's reveal it.

Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".

who is this man that is God fellow?. what do "fellow" here mean?. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

FELLOW: H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

Well, well, well, "another" of God as a MAN? yes God shared, or "diversified" in flesh per John 1:14, and backed up by G243 allos which confirmed this "ANOTHER of God or his "Diversity". and notice also what the definition also revels,

2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man. concretely?, a kindred man? yes. concretly? meaning "VISIBLE", in flesh per John 1:14. and kindred man? yes, God in flesh shared as the "ANOTHER" of himself, the Offspring. let's see it. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".

the word "OFFSPRING", it's the Greek word, G1085 γ?νος genos (je'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

there he is... "kin", the "kind(-red)", the KINSMAM REDEEMER, our Saviour, JESUS the Christ. the offspring, or as the OT prophet Isaiah said, the "LAST".

well, well, well, this man who is God fellow is "ANOTHER", of God himself shared in flesh is the KINSMAN REDEEMER, the offspring, the Last to his own FIRST, or ROOT.



Diversity is everywhere in the bible, Old and New Testament. WE SUGGEST ONE RE-READ THIS POST.



PICJAG.


Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One...
Then on the scene in the New Testament....you have Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit.
Do you want me to count them for you?
 
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GodsGrace

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Your post was obnoxious, mine was pretty.
salute.gif
 

justbyfaith

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I don't see anything here that bests what I have posted.

The very last thing bests it...

In referring to the first four posts of this thread, that if anyone will read and understand, they will understand the Oneness of the Lord, even in light of all of your statements that you seem to think refute that idea.

They don't.

All it takes is a little bit of understanding.
 

Grailhunter

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The very last thing bests it...

In referring to the first four posts of this thread, that if anyone will read and understand, they will understand the Oneness of the Lord, even in light of all of your statements that you seem to think refute that idea.

They don't.

All it takes is a little bit of understanding.

Read my post and you will know the truth.