The Trinity is a Lie
- Thread starter cgneustar
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Well C,
The problem here is very simple.
YOU like to follow the Torah...this is your prerogative.
Maybe you're Jewish...Maybe you're a Hassidic...
Maybe you're a Christian that desires to follow the Torah.
This is very good for you and I'm sure God is very happy that
you obey HIM.
The people you're addressing are Christian, this means that we believe that Jesus was the awaited Messiah and the salvation economy that was worked out in the N.T. by Paul and other writers is what Christians accept as the TRUTH.
Of course, being mere mortals, no one REALLY KNOWS what the truth is...
There is one truth that is knowable...
GOD EXISTS.
JESUS WAS SENT BY GOD.
However we understand Jesus to be,,,,if we look to HIS LIGHT to reach GOD,
I can be 99.9% certain that GOD is happy with US. (and you too, as I've stated).
If you want to believe that correct doctrine gets one to heaven, you can go ahead and believe that.
I believe our obedience to God Almighty and our love for Jesus will allow us to spend eternity with God. Not the correct doctrine.
But I'll tell you this...
whoever loves GOD...
loves mankind.
YOUR statements show no love for mankind.
He that cannot love what he sees...
will not love what he cannot see.
(me)
Except that Yeshuah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "until heaven and earth passes away not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah, and Paul said, "do we therefore nullify the Torah by this belief? Surely not, we uphold the Torah" and "in the Torah is the embodiment of knowledge and truth", so clearly it is you who is deceived following after a false messiah that only exists in your own imagination, not the true Messiah, blessed be he, who taught obedience to the Torah of Moses, and belief in his own name, which is Yeshuah, for he was sent by God to die for us to atone for our sins, and also to perfect us through his blood, which the blood of animals was never able to do. But of course, if you live your whole life believing the Torah is abolished, or also completely fulfilled as some of you like to mutter, you will live your whole life in disobedience to the commands of God no different than the unbeliever who already disobeys the Torah, and will thus, end up in the same place as them. You are an ignorant people, rejecting the Law of God, and you are also stubborn, and for that reason you bring condemnation upon your own heads. How much longer will I continue wasting my time reasoning with you people on this forum? We shall see. I am patient, and also hopeful, that perhaps one of you will come to their senses and understand that what I am saying is indeed the truth.
1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
If we do not obey and teach the Torah we will be called least in the kingdom of heaven...which means we will be "in" the kingdom of heaven...
Paul said in Ephesians that he was less than the least of all the saints; very likely because he was called to preach grace (the unsearchable riches of Christ) to the Gentiles.
But I consider that Paul was greater than the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul said that he counted his former obedience to the Torah (as an unbeliever) as loss (even as dung) in comparison to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord.
I suggest to you that you read and think on for a season, Philippians 3:1-9.
This is not true, because even though during the rulership of the Messiah on this earth the earth will be full of righteousness, in obedience to the Torah of Moses which will still not be discarded then, for it is written, "the Torah will go out from Zion" and "the earth will be full of the knowledge of God", there will indeed be few sinners at that time, who will discard even the least of the commands of the Torah in the kingdom of the Messiah, and these are the ones that are written about in Isaiah,
No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 65:20
So no, the sinners that will exist during the rulership of the Messiah does not justify full out torahlessness now, for it is also written, "many will say to me, did we not cast demons in your name? But I will respond, 'I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of TORAHLESSNESS'".
shnarkle
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While I can agree that much of what you say is true (e.g. the mark, tithing, the trinity doctrine), and relate to your sentiments on a somewhat superficial level, the fact remains that the law can't turn anyone back to God. It can only point out "the way" which is Christ, and Christ (as well as Paul) points out that it is the gospel itself that converts people's hearts, and turns them back to God.
Paul is especially clear on not only how ineffective the law is in converting people, but even goes so far as to point out that it is effectively blasphemy.
"23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."
Unless you're already keeping the entire law perfectly, this applies to you as well.
How do you explain the following:
Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Psa 19:7, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The law of the Lord has the power to convert a man by showing him that he is a sinner in need of the Saviour.
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What, specifically, are you saying isn't true?
Matthew 5:17-20 is clear, that there are those who even break the law and teach others to do the same, who will be found in the kingdom of heaven (although they will be called the least).
Also, @cgneustar, did you not read Philippians 3:1-9?
It clearly teaches that Paul counted his blamelessness according to the law to be as dung in comparison to the knowledge of Christ Jesus the Lord; and counted it as loss for Christ. He also declares in this passage that he does not live by his own righteousness, which is of the law, but by the righteousness which is of God by faith.
It clearly teaches that Paul counted his blamelessness according to the law to be as dung in comparison to the knowledge of Christ Jesus the Lord; and counted it as loss for Christ. He also declares in this passage that he does not live by his own righteousness, which is of the law, but by the righteousness which is of God by faith.
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Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
To @cgneustar
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
To @cgneustar
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The Torah was not given to make anyone righteous, it was intended to reveal what sin is, through its commands, and bring death upon those who sinned, which is why the Torah is called a law of sin and death, which is why it was necessary for the Messiah to come, in order to free us from sin by the shedding of his blood, in order that the righteous requirement of the Torah might finally be fulfilled in us, who receive his airflow that cuts sin away from the heart through belief in his name, whereas those who refuse to believe in him, cannot receive the airflow of God, which is why all they are left with is a Torah that they themselves cannot fulfill, because they are still enslaved to sin, which are the Jews. Yet he who believes in Yeshuah but discards the entire Torah is far worse than the Jews who stumbled because of their disbelief, because torahlessness is far worse than incredulity, because a man who is torahless lives according to what he thinks is right, and not according to what God has defined is right in accordance to the commands he gave Moses. This is why far worse judgment will come upon the nations than to the Jews, for the Jews will simply be gathered from all over the world to be taken outside Israel to be trampled, at the second coming of the Messiah, because of their incredulity, whereas 5 days later after the 10th day of the 7th new moon the nations will begin to suffer 7 plagues for 7 days, which is far worse, because at the very least the Jews have the Torah, but all the Gentiles have is mere belief without obedience, torahlessness.
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I already told you, that you skew the "least in the kingdom of heaven" by those who discard the commands of the Torah to mean that torahlessness is now justifiable, instead of understanding that under the rulership of the Messiah in the kingdom of heaven on this earth there will be few sinners who will discard the commands of the Torah, in accordance to Isaiah, and will be accursed, and die young because of their disobedience.
Tell me, are "you shall not murder" and "you shall not steal" and "a man shall not wear women's clothing" commands that you are dung, and that mere belief in Yeshuah discards these commands? You cannot discard the Torah that reveals all that is sin. Why is this so difficult for you people to understand?
Because the righteousness that comes through belief in Yeshuah grants the airflow of God, which then enters the body through the airflow of the nostrils and cuts sin away from the heart, which is the circumcision of the heart, which frees a man from sin and perfects him inwardly, which then causes a man to perfectly obey the Torah of Moses, which is why it is written, "and I will put my airflow in you and cause you to walk in my statutes" and "in order that the righteous requirement of the Torah might be finally met in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the airflow". This is why the righteousness based on belief is greater than the righteousness based on works of Torah, not because Paul was promulgating torahlessness, but because he was promulgating belief IN ADDITION TO OBEDIENCE TO THE TORAH, hence "do we then nullify the Torah by this belief? Certainly not. We uphold the Torah". For Paul was not contradicting what the Messiah said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah" and "until heaven and earth passes away, not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Torah". You people are in serious error, for torahlessness will only bring condemnation upon your own heads. Your mere belief will not save you. You deceive yourselves.
Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
shnarkle
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You're conflating the commandments which are for our benefit (e.g. "The Sabbath was made FOR man...etc"), and the law that was "added because of transgressions". It is sin and death that result from transgressions of the law, not by fulfilling the law.
Sorry, but God is no respecter of persons. The Jews do not have a monopoly on sin.
shnarkle
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Who are you responding to? Could you provide some context so we know what you're talking about? I would assume that you're responding to something I posted because I was the most recent reply to your op, but I'm not avoiding or ignoring or doing away with the Mosaic law either.
shnarkle
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It's quite easy to understand once one rightly divides the word. You seem to be arguing with yourself. I 'm certainly not discarding the Torah.
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