True Israel is Alive and Well.

Buzzfruit · Aug 31, 2011

veteran said:
Was Apostle Paul doing away with the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel when he said this?...

Col 3:11
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
(KJV)

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

Clearly not, otherwise he would not have mentioned Abraham and that idea of "heirs according to the promise", which was first given to the Hebrews and then through Israel.

You see God made two promises to Abraham.....one physical and temporary and the other spiritual and eternal. The one that is mentioned in verse 29 of Gal. 3 is talking about the latter. The Children of Israel were not promise the latter........there's was physical. But those who are called by grace are hairs with Abraham according to the promise that God made with him.....things that he would inherit when Jesus returns and set up the kingdom of God on the Earth. As the scripture says, he looked for a city whoes builder and maker is God.
.

veteran said:
In Romans 11:1-5, was Paul talking about the Gentiles when spoke of the remnant according to the election of grace? No, he was speaking of flesh born Israelites which God chose and preserved in His Salvation. Not only that, but Paul made a distinction here...

That is obvious, but nevertheless my point still stand........there will be far more gentiles in God's kingdom than Jews or even the house of Israel. This is God's doing.......the last will has become the first and the first the last. The Israelites ignorance will remain until the gentiles fills the kingdom of God.

Romans 11:25 (ASV)
[sup]25 [/sup]For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in;

And remember what Jesus also said to the Jews of His day....."They shall come from the east and the west and sit down in the kingdom and they and they outside."

veteran said:
Rom 11:24-25
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)

Will God's chosen Israel that believes be graffed into a different olive tree than their own? No, but "into their own olive tree" like Paul said there.

Now here's the bottom-line: the truth of the matter is it has been God's plan before He created time and space that human beings would inherit His kingdom......it was what was set before Adam and Eve. So the New Covenant is not really new at all......it was not an after thought; whether we are talking about Israelites or Gentiles. It just meant that the Word would come as a human being, live a sinless life, die for the sins of all people so that what God had eternally had in mind would become a reality. All have acess and none can boast in themselves......it is by the grace of God.

veteran · Sep 1, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
You see God made two promises to Abraham.....one physical and temporary and the other spiritual and eternal. The one that is mentioned in verse 29 of Gal. 3 is talking about the latter. The Children of Israel were not promise the latter........there's was physical. But those who are called by grace are hairs with Abraham according to the promise that God made with him.....things that he would inherit when Jesus returns and set up the kingdom of God on the Earth. As the scripture says, he looked for a city whoes builder and maker is God.

The Promise God first gave to Abraham IS the Salvation Promise by Faith. If you'd read your OT history like Tim was pointing to, you'd understand how that Promise to Abraham was given around 430 years PRIOR to the Old Covenant being given. That Promise to Abraham was... The New Covenant. It just wasn't time for it to manifest yet. That Promise involves Israel's Salvation AND OUR Salvation. It was not a temporary Promise.

To show this, God attached the idea of His Birthright to that Promise. And that Birthright was to Abraham and his seed, to Isaac next, which is the same Promise Apostle Paul was speaking of in Galatians when contrasting the two covenants. It then continued through Jacob, and then through Joseph, and then finally to Joseph's two sons born in Egypt to him, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chron.5), where that Birthright Promise still rests today, among the Gentiles in the Christian West. This is HOW... we Gentiles have been included in that Promise, because it was spread to the West where the majority of the seed of Israel was scattered to, with Ephraim still as their head.

What you have yet to learn per Bible history is that Promise was always about Christ's Church. This is why Apostle Paul would relate Gentiles as strangers that were once afar off from the covenants of promise to Israel, and the commonwealth of Israel, but now through belief on Christ Jesus are made 'nigh' to those promises and that commonwealth of Israel.

Instead, men's doctrines from false prophets have taught you to think only the Jews represent the seed of Israel, when the Jews (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) only represented a third of the total number of Israelites. They have forgotten to tell you about the ten tribes which God scattered that were among the Gentiles in the West during Christ's first coming which believed on Christ as a majority. It's because most of them don't know it, and they listen to false Jews that plant false histories among them. Sorry, but a lot of the history taught about Israel in the world and in today's Churches does not align with the prophecies written in God's Word.

That is obvious, but nevertheless my point still stand........there will be far more gentiles in God's kingdom than Jews or even the house of Israel. This is God's doing.......the last will has become the first and the first the last. The Israelites ignorance will remain until the gentiles fills the kingdom of God.

You're wrong for even suggesting such an idea, simply because you really don't even know who literal Israel really is.

And remember what Jesus also said to the Jews of His day....."They shall come from the east and the west and sit down in the kingdom and they and they outside."

I suspect you're trying to quote this...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Evidently, you think all of the seed of Israel are those corrupt scribes and Pharisees that wanted to kill our Lord Jesus. That's who He was really speaking of with that. You're going to learn different when it's time, and it's going to floor you.

Now here's the bottom-line: the truth of the matter is it has been God's plan before He created time and space that human beings would inherit His kingdom......it was what was set before Adam and Eve. So the New Covenant is not really new at all......it was not an after thought; whether we are talking about Israelites or Gentiles. It just meant that the Word would come as a human being, live a sinless life, die for the sins of all people so that what God had eternally had in mind would become a reality. All have acess and none can boast in themselves......it is by the grace of God.

God's Salvation Plan through His Son was indeed set before the foundations of this world, that's very true. Yet God chose a specific people to represent that Plan, even sending His Son through that specific seed. It had nothing to do with their being better than any other peoples; it had to do with God's choosing and election, not man's.

Yet the doctrine you're on is trying to do that choosing in place of God. That's what it means when you think God is going to cast the seed of Israel off, especially when He has given so many Scriptures in His Word that declares just the opposite. The false prophets you're listening to are trying to build their 'own' little corner of Salvation for themselves, in spite of God's chosen in doing that.

Buzzfruit · Sep 1, 2011

veteran said:
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The Promise God first gave to Abraham IS the Salvation Promise by Faith. If you'd read your OT history like Tim was pointing to, you'd understand how that Promise to Abraham was given around 430 years PRIOR to the Old Covenant being given. That Promise to Abraham was... The New Covenant. It just wasn't time for it to manifest yet. That Promise involves Israel's Salvation AND OUR Salvation. It was not a temporary Promise.

To show this, God attached the idea of His Birthright to that Promise. And that Birthright was to Abraham and his seed, to Isaac next, which is the same Promise Apostle Paul was speaking of in Galatians when contrasting the two covenants. It then continued through Jacob, and then through Joseph, and then finally to Joseph's two sons born in Egypt to him, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chron.5), where that Birthright Promise still rests today, among the Gentiles in the Christian West. This is HOW... we Gentiles have been included in that Promise, because it was spread to the West where the majority of the seed of Israel was scattered to, with Ephraim still as their head.

What you have yet to learn per Bible history is that Promise was always about Christ's Church. This is why Apostle Paul would relate Gentiles as strangers that were once afar off from the covenants of promise to Israel, and the commonwealth of Israel, but now through belief on Christ Jesus are made 'nigh' to those promises and that commonwealth of Israel.

Instead, men's doctrines from false prophets have taught you to think only the Jews represent the seed of Israel, when the Jews (Judah, Benjamin, Levi) only represented a third of the total number of Israelites. They have forgotten to tell you about the ten tribes which God scattered that were among the Gentiles in the West during Christ's first coming which believed on Christ as a majority. It's because most of them don't know it, and they listen to false Jews that plant false histories among them. Sorry, but a lot of the history taught about Israel in the world and in today's Churches does not align with the prophecies written in God's Word.

And that promise does not have anything to do with being a natural born Israelite of the flesh. It is those who are children of Abraham by faith. A natural born Israelite is not an automatic ticket so to speak entrance into God's kingdom.

veteran said:
You're wrong for even suggesting such an idea, simply because you really don't even know who literal Israel really is.

I have already provided one scripture that shows this. There are far more Gentiles (bilions) in the world than Israel (Isreal is only has milions). Most of these people will make it into the kingdom of God.

veteran said:
I suspect you're trying to quote this...

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Evidently, you think all of the seed of Israel are those corrupt scribes and Pharisees that wanted to kill our Lord Jesus. That's who He was really speaking of with that. You're going to learn different when it's time, and it's going to floor you.

Its not just those specific religious people that rejected Him........remember that it was the common people whom the Pharisees stirred up that called for Jesus to be crusified, also rejected Jesus. The scripture also tells us that He came to His own and His own recieved Him not.

veteran said:
God's Salvation Plan through His Son was indeed set before the foundations of this world, that's very true. Yet God chose a specific people to represent that Plan, even sending His Son through that specific seed. It had nothing to do with their being better than any other peoples; it had to do with God's choosing and election, not man's.

But the fact that the vast majority of them did not reconised it because they were spritually blind, stiff neck and carnal. Even some of the Gentiles more receptive to God and God's prophets than they were. Jesus even told the Jews of His day that in the second resurrection the people of Sodom will rise of with His generation and condemn it.

veteran said:
Yet the doctrine you're on is trying to do that choosing in place of God. That's what it means when you think God is going to cast the seed of Israel off, especially when He has given so many Scriptures in His Word that declares just the opposite. The false prophets you're listening to are trying to build their 'own' little corner of Salvation for themselves, in spite of God's chosen in doing that.

I don't think you have been reading what I have being saying because if you were you would not make that acusation.

veteran · Sep 2, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
And that promise does not have anything to do with being a natural born Israelite of the flesh. It is those who are children of Abraham by faith. A natural born Israelite is not an automatic ticket so to speak entrance into God's kingdom.

Well, yes it does, which even Apostle Paul declared in Romans 3...

Rom 3:1-3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(KJV)

Just because 'some' of Israel failed to believe does not mean all the seed of Israel refused Christ, which is proven by the existence of God's Birthright promises to Abraham winding up among the western Christian nations, the location where the majority of the seed of Israel were scattered to (ten tribes of Israel). Like Paul revealed in Rom.11:1-5, God did not cast away His people which He foreknew.

That's why Christ would be born through the tribe of Judah, and His Salvation would be preached first at Jerusalem. It's why His chosen Apostles were Israelites and not of some other peoples. It's why God's Birthright with The Gospel would continue to the scattered ten tribes of Israel that migrated to the West to form the western Christian nations, fulfilling the prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and with kings and queens coronated upon thrones like the kings of Israel were. And then, those western Christian nations would become the main caretakers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations, sending ambassadors of Christ to the nations. None of that happened by chance; it was by prophecy in God's Word. It's about God's choosing, not man's.

Buzzfruit · Sep 2, 2011

veteran said:
Well, yes it does, which even Apostle Paul declared in Romans 3...

Rom 3:1-3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(KJV)

Just because 'some' of Israel failed to believe does not mean all the seed of Israel refused Christ, which is proven by the existence of God's Birthright promises to Abraham winding up among the western Christian nations, the location where the majority of the seed of Israel were scattered to (ten tribes of Israel). Like Paul revealed in Rom.11:1-5, God did not cast away His people which He foreknew.

That's why Christ would be born through the tribe of Judah, and His Salvation would be preached first at Jerusalem. It's why His chosen Apostles were Israelites and not of some other peoples. It's why God's Birthright with The Gospel would continue to the scattered ten tribes of Israel that migrated to the West to form the western Christian nations, fulfilling the prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and with kings and queens coronated upon thrones like the kings of Israel were. And then, those western Christian nations would become the main caretakers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations, sending ambassadors of Christ to the nations. None of that happened by chance; it was by prophecy in God's Word. It's about God's choosing, not man's.

I am not talking about those who believe I am talking about just because one is Jews or an Israelit does not mean they all will automatically enter God's kingdom. Those Jews or Israelites that believe have entered into God's kingdom because of faith in Jesus and who He is, not becuase they are biological children of Abraham. The true seeds are those of faith and includes the Gentiles, while those who are only seed of Abraham but do not believe are not the true seed of Abraham.

veteran · Sep 2, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
I am not talking about those who believe I am talking about just because one is Jews or an Israelit does not mean they all will automatically enter God's kingdom. Those Jews or Israelites that believe have entered into God's kingdom because of faith in Jesus and who He is, not becuase they are biological children of Abraham. The true seeds are those of faith and includes the Gentiles, while those who are only seed of Abraham but do not believe are not the true seed of Abraham.

Something I doubt you are aware of is, that many of those you label as Jews of Israel today really are not of the literal seed of Israel, including those who sought to kill Christ. I don't mean that spiritually, but literally. Lot of the people that hated Christ at His first coming our Lord pointed to as foreigners that had crept in. The scribes were specifically Kenite peoples of the peoples of Canaan.

So when Paul quotes from Isaiah 59 in Rom.11, and says all Israel will be saved, that means God removing the blindness HE put upon today's rebellious portions of Israel, so they may see with spiritual eyes, and hear with spiritual ears. According to what Paul said, he's putting his trust in God to do that like He said, so who are we to go against God in that if He so chooses to do that Divine intervention upon all the seed of Israel, to open their eyes and their being saved?

How can WE go against God in that, since He promised the seed of Israel He would forgive their sins and remove wickedness from Jacob? Instead, it's an admonition for us Christians to be patient, and not be high-minded nor judge any of Israel to condemnation, which we have no right or power to do.

veteran · Sep 2, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
I have already provided one scripture that shows this. There are far more Gentiles (bilions) in the world than Israel (Isreal is only has milions). Most of these people will make it into the kingdom of God.

Stupid argument, since you don't know yet how many will be saved. Nor do you realize how many Israelites there are in the world today, certainly a lot more than a few million. More like billions upon billions, as many as the dust and stars of the sky is what God said.

Its not just those specific religious people that rejected Him........remember that it was the common people whom the Pharisees stirred up that called for Jesus to be crusified, also rejected Jesus. The scripture also tells us that He came to His own and His own recieved Him not.

Scripture shows the false Jews hired hecklers to go among the crowds to yell out, "crucify Him!". Those responsible for that are accountable for causing the people to riot in ignorance. When Paul tried one more time in Rome to preach The Gospel to Jews and they rejected it, that still was about Jewish leaders and not the people as a whole. You're doing wrong in trying to generalize a whole people in that guilt, just so you can try to pump yourself up in conceit.

Paul showed in Romans that God blinded many of Israel so The Gospel would go also to us Gentiles. Since their blindness was because of God's Hand, how are you going to blame them for what God Himself did to them? Sin in ignorance is not accountable the same way as willful sin in full knowledge. This is why the unbelieving of Israel are going to weep when God opens their eyes about His Son. They are going to feel ashamed. Might want to understand that lest God causes that same blindness upon yourself so as to know what that will be like when Christ returns. But those of Israel who literally hate Christ while well knowing Who He is, those have NO excuse, and are fully accountable for what they do. Those are the "tares", the false crept in unawares that were before of old ordained to that condemnation (Jude 1; Matt.13).

But the fact that the vast majority of them did not reconised it because they were spritually blind, stiff neck and carnal. Even some of the Gentiles more receptive to God and God's prophets than they were. Jesus even told the Jews of His day that in the second resurrection the people of Sodom will rise of with His generation and condemn it.

And just who was Christ rebuking with that? All the people of Israel? No, of course not. The false Jews of scribes and Pharisees that He also called vipers and sons of the devil? Yes.

I don't think you have been reading what I have being saying because if you were you would not make that acusation.

Then read what Paul said to you in Rom.11 again about being wise in one's own conceits against Israel. That's where that rebuke comes from.

TheWarIs1 · Sep 2, 2011

Greetings Vet.
Where do you find that the Scribes and Pharsees were of the Kenites?

Weren't the kenites of Cain or Canaanites and forbidden to intermarriage with a Hebrew?
Moses wife was a Kenite?

Buzzfruit · Sep 2, 2011

veteran said:
Something I doubt you are aware of is, that many of those you label as Jews of Israel today really are not of the literal seed of Israel, including those who sought to kill Christ. I don't mean that spiritually, but literally. Lot of the people that hated Christ at His first coming our Lord pointed to as foreigners that had crept in. The scribes were specifically Kenite peoples of the peoples of Canaan.

So when Paul quotes from Isaiah 59 in Rom.11, and says all Israel will be saved, that means God removing the blindness HE put upon today's rebellious portions of Israel, so they may see with spiritual eyes, and hear with spiritual ears. According to what Paul said, he's putting his trust in God to do that like He said, so who are we to go against God in that if He so chooses to do that Divine intervention upon all the seed of Israel, to open their eyes and their being saved?

How can WE go against God in that, since He promised the seed of Israel He would forgive their sins and remove wickedness from Jacob? Instead, it's an admonition for us Christians to be patient, and not be high-minded nor judge any of Israel to condemnation, which we have no right or power to do.

That what you say but that is not supported in scripture. The scripture says He came to His own but they did not recieve Him.

John 1:11 (Darby)
[sup]11 [/sup]He came to his own, and his own received him not;

TheWarIs1 said:
Greetings Vet.
Where do you find that the Scribes and Pharsees were of the Kenites?

Weren't the kenites of Cain or Canaanites and forbidden to intermarriage with a Hebrew?
Moses wife was a Kenite?

He is making stuff up or someone else made it up and he believed it.

Buzzfruit · Sep 2, 2011

veteran said:
Stupid argument, since you don't know yet how many will be saved. Nor do you realize how many Israelites there are in the world today, certainly a lot more than a few million. More like billions upon billions, as many as the dust and stars of the sky is what God said.

Only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel up to that point is mentioned that is sealed.......but in the same chapter it says of other Nations that no man could number. So what does that tell you?

veteran said:
Scripture shows the false Jews hired hecklers to go among the crowds to yell out, "crucify Him!". Those responsible for that are accountable for causing the people to riot in ignorance. When Paul tried one more time in Rome to preach The Gospel to Jews and they rejected it, that still was about Jewish leaders and not the people as a whole. You're doing wrong in trying to generalize a whole people in that guilt, just so you can try to pump yourself up in conceit.

How do you know they hired hecklers? I know there is no scripture that says that. It only says they stirred up the people......the same ones that not long before that was shouting hosanna to the highest.

veteran said:
Paul showed in Romans that God blinded many of Israel so The Gospel would go also to us Gentiles. Since their blindness was because of God's Hand, how are you going to blame them for what God Himself did to them? Sin in ignorance is not accountable the same way as willful sin in full knowledge. This is why the unbelieving of Israel are going to weep when God opens their eyes about His Son. They are going to feel ashamed. Might want to understand that lest God causes that same blindness upon yourself so as to know what that will be like when Christ returns. But those of Israel who literally hate Christ while well knowing Who He is, those have NO excuse, and are fully accountable for what they do. Those are the "tares", the false crept in unawares that were before of old ordained to that condemnation (Jude 1; Matt.13)..

This also applies to Gentiles that do not believe. Remember Jesus said no one can go to Him unless the Father calls them. And I am not the one who is blaming or will be blaming them.......the ones who will be condemning them will be the people of Sodom, Nineveh and the queen of Sheba.

veteran said:
And just who was Christ rebuking with that? All the people of Israel? No, of course not. The false Jews of scribes and Pharisees that He also called vipers and sons of the devil?

How is it then that Christianity that is not predominantly made up of Jews?

veteran said:
Then read what Paul said to you in Rom.11 again about being wise in one's own conceits against Israel. That's where that rebuke comes from.

Knock yourself out, but you are wasting your time.

veteran · Sep 3, 2011

Buzzfruit said:
That what you say but that is not supported in scripture. The scripture says He came to His own but they did not recieve Him.

I can document it Biblically about foreigners that began creeping in among Israel all the way back in Judges 2 & 3. The list of foreign peoples that had by then become 'priests' among Judah in Ezra 2 is an eye-opener, that is, for those who read and heed it. Christ's Apostles warned about this creeping in of pagan foreigners among Israel and allowing it. It's even one of the Messages in Jude 1, and by Paul in Acts 20.

So when you say such things are not supported in Scripture, you are lying on purpose to deceive.

Buzzfruit · Sep 3, 2011

veteran said:
1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)

The Pharisees were a mixed up bunch, some of Israel, some not. See Ezra 2 for the list of who returned to Jerusalem with Judah after the 70 years Babylon captivity.

Anybody can be a scribe so that scripture by itself does not prove that the Pharisee were Kenite.

Hebrew Strong's Number: 5608

Hebrew Word: ‏סָפַר‎

Transliteration: sāpar

Phonetic Pronunciation:<a href="http://www.crossbooks.com/book.asp?pub=0&book=58&wave=H5608"> saw-far'

Root: a primitive root

Cross Reference: TWOT - 1540, 1540c

Part of Speech:

Vine's Words: Number (To), Count

a primitive root; properly to score with a mark as a tally or record, i.e. (by implication) to inscribe, and also to enumerate; intensitive to recount, i.e. celebrate :- commune, (ac-) count, declare, number, + penknife, reckon, scribe, shew forth, speak, talk, tell (out), writer.

— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

You are just cherry picking the scripture to support what you believe. Another person could have used these scriptures to contradict you.

1 Kings 4:3 (ASV)
[sup]3 [/sup]Elihoreph and Ahijah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder;

2 Chronicles 34:13 (ASV)
[sup]13 [/sup]Also they were over the bearers of burdens, and set forward all that did the work in every manner of service: and of the Levites there were scribes, and officers, and porters.

A scribe is simply someone that writes something in a book or a scroll. So it is ridiculous to assume that just because some Kenites were scribes does not mean that the Pharisees were Kenites. It would be like calling all doctors Americans just because there are doctors outside of America.

veteran · Sep 3, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Greetings Vet.
Where do you find that the Scribes and Pharsees were of the Kenites?

Weren't the kenites of Cain or Canaanites and forbidden to intermarriage with a Hebrew?
Moses wife was a Kenite?

1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)

The wife of Moses was NOT of the Kenite peoples. Her father was a priest of Midian (relation of Abraham)... of the land where Moses fled to from Egypt (Exo.2:15-16). Judges 1:16 is where many confuse that, because Moses' father-in-law is mentioned along with the children of the Kenites that went up to the wilderness with Judah.

The Kenite peoples were a people that dwelt among... the nations of Canaan (Gen.15:18-21). Bible study about them reveals they were not... one of the specific nations of Canaanites, but dwelt among them in the lands of Canaan. Dr. James Strong translated the Hebrew for Kenite to mean the people of Cain.

Buzzfruit · Sep 3, 2011

veteran said:
I can document it Biblically about foreigners that began creeping in among Israel all the way back in Judges 2 & 3. The list of foreign peoples that had by then become 'priests' among Judah in Ezra 2 is an eye-opener, that is, for those who read and heed it. Christ's Apostles warned about this creeping in of pagan foreigners among Israel and allowing it. It's even one of the Messages in Jude 1, and by Paul in Acts 20.

So when you say such things are not supported in Scripture, you are lying on purpose to deceive.

You conveniently edite out the scripture that I post that supported what I said.......that is not honest.

veteran · Sep 3, 2011

Those like Buzfruit won't understand what our Lord Jesus meant when He said this to the multitude and His disciples...

Matt 23:1-2
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:"
(KJV)

Per the Antiquities of the Jews by the Jewish historian Josephus, some of the high priests of Israel from the time of the 2nd temple to Christ's first coming were not even of Israelite birth, but were Idumeans, of Esau (Jacob's brother).

Ezra 2:58-62
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
(KJV)

Here's who Solomon's servants were...

IKing 9:19-22
19 And all the cities of store that Solomon had, and cities for his chariots, and cities for his horsemen, and that which Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, and in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
(KJV)

The word Nethinim means 'given to temple service'. They were foreigners that worked their way into the temple to do basic chores. Eventually, they worked their way up to doing Levitical priest duties, becoming PRIESTS! Per God's commandment for then, NO foreigner of the nations was to serve in that capacity. Only the sons of Aaron and Levi were to be the priests over Israel.

Buzzfruit · Sep 3, 2011

veteran said:
Those like Buzfruit won't understand what our Lord Jesus meant when He said this to the multitude and His disciples...

Matt 23:1-2
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:"
(KJV)

Per the Antiquities of the Jews by the Jewish historian Josephus, some of the high priests of Israel from the time of the 2nd temple to Christ's first coming were not even of Israelite birth, but were Idumeans, of Esau (Jacob's brother).

Ezra 2:58-62
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
(KJV)

Here's who Solomon's servants were...

IKing 9:19-22
19 And all the cities of store that Solomon had, and cities for his chariots, and cities for his horsemen, and that which Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, and in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
(KJV)

The word Nethinim means 'given to temple service'. They were foreigners that worked their way into the temple to do basic chores. Eventually, they worked their way up to doing Levitical priest duties, becoming PRIESTS! Per God's commandment for then, NO foreigner of the nations was to serve in that capacity. Only the sons of Aaron and Levi were to be the priests over Israel.

What's your point? Because none of those scriptures proves that just because one is a Jew it authmatically means that they have entered God's kingdom. Or that whatever they say it means that what they say is of God. Remember, it was these same scribes that wanted Jesus dead and had Him crusified.

veteran · Sep 3, 2011

This matter of foreign pagan peoples of the Kenites and Canaanites and Idumeans creeping in among the house of Judah at Jerusalem, is what set the stage for those who were actually responsible for crucifying our Lord Jesus. This is why our Lord Jesus would say the following to those false crept in unawares servants of the devil...

John 8:37-47
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill Me, because My word hath no place in you.

The Greek for "ye are" can also be rendered as 'have been' in the Greek definition of este. It is not definite word to show blood origin. Those particular scribes and Pharisees He was speaking that to were claiming Abraham as their genealogical father. Christ was only agreeing to their claiming Abraham in their lineage, not that it was true. Christ declares His Word has no place in them. Why? He reveals that later here...

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with My Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Whoah! Just what father was our Lord Jesus claiming those scribes and Pharisees belonged to, for our Lord contrasted our His Father in Heaven with their "father"? Who's our Lord Jesus pointing to as their father, if not God?

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill Me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

Those scribes and Pharisees were continually going around try to find something to convict our Lord Jesus with. They even started with John the Baptist. Let's take a little look at what John said to them in Matt.3 prior to the start of Christ's Ministry...

Matt 3:7-10
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, 'We have Abraham to our father': for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
(KJV)

Per Christ's parable of the tares of the field, just who is it that is to be cast in the fire? Those "tares" Christ gave in the parable. That's who these among the scribes, Pharisees, AND Sadducees represented. John the Baptist is marking them right there, just like our Lord Jesus did in John 8.

Did you notice John caught their speech before they could claim Abraham as their father? John knew who they really were, pagans of the nations of Canaan and Kenites (of Cain) that had crept in among Judah per early Bible history.

Christ continues to the scribes and Pharisees who wanted to murder Him...

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father." Then said they to Him, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."
42 Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word."

THIS is the very reason why there's such determined difficulty with 'some' here on this Forum, for they are of these same peoples which claimed Abraham as their literal father, but Christ revealed they are not. That's WHY they cannot HEAR nor understand God's Word as written.

Now our Lord Jesus is going to lower the hammer upon them...

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who exactly was a murderer from the beginning, i.e., the very FIRST MURDERER? CAIN. That's exactly who our Lord Jesus is pointing to there as their flesh father (Cain), with their spiritual father being the devil himself.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.
46 Which of you convinceth Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe Me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
(KJV)

This is WHY our Lord Jesus would condemn the children who's fathers killed God's prophets, starting with WHOM?

Luke 11:47-54
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
53 And as He said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge Him vehemently, and to provoke Him to speak of many things:
54 Laying wait for Him, and seeking to catch something out of His mouth, that they might accuse Him.
(KJV)

Who was responsible for the blood of righteous Abel, i.e., Abel's murder??? It was CAIN! Our Lord Jesus was rebuking a SPECIFIC group of people among the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadduccees. Not all the Pharisees, for Nicodemus was a Pharissee and he didn't seek to murder Jesus, but even contributed to the spices for His burial.

TheWarIs1 · Sep 7, 2011

Vet do you believe in a dual seed line of Genesis?
Cain was never mentioned as Adams seed.

to Satan's seed :
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

tomwebster · Sep 8, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Vet do you believe in a dual seed line of Genesis?
Cain was never mentioned as Adams seed.

to Satan's seed :
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes, Cain and Abel were twins with different fathers. If you want to discuss this you could start another thread.

veteran · Sep 8, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Vet do you believe in a dual seed line of Genesis?
Cain was never mentioned as Adams seed.

to Satan's seed :
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes, but I believe it has more to do with the spiritual nature.

Heard the story about the scorpion and the frog? The scorpion wanted a ride on the frog's back to get across the river. The frog asked, "How do I know you won't sting me when we get half way across the river?" The scorpion promised he would not do such a thing. So the scorpion hops on the frog's back and they get halfway out in the river, and the scorpion stings the frog. The frog then asks, "Why have you stung me? now we'll both drown?" The scorpion replied,"You don't understand, it's my nature."

In Genesis 25 with the stir in Rebekah's womb, she asked God what it was about, and He told her "two manner of people" were in her womb, Jacob and Esau. In Rom.9 Apostle Paul reveals that before either child was born, before either did good or evil, God said He loved Jacob, but He hated Esau. Those two brothers were of the same family and people, but it was their 'nature' that was different.

In Jude 1 we're told about a certain people, the "crept in unawares", put upon this earth that were before of old 'ordained' to the condemnation of being against Christ. Those are the "tares" our Lord Jesus mentioned in His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13.

This is a hard matter from God's Word that many struggle with, but nonetheless, it is written in God's Word. This world time on earth has been about a spiritual war from the beginning between two manner of people with two different spiritual natures, and it's what the "emnity" of Gen.3:15 is about; it began in God's Garden and with Cain and Abel in the flesh. This is why in Gen.4 we see what manner of people Cain's offspring represent, vs. those born of God.

For those born with the spiritual nature to be against Christ, that's essentially what the "natural brute beasts" idea is about that Peter mentioned (2 Peter 2). We know Christ's Salvation by Faith is open to them also, if they will turn and repent to Christ and believe. And that's kind of like the scorpion having to fight temptation in overcoming his natural nature to sting, with refusing to sting the frog. It is possible for those born with the brute beast nature to overcome that nature and become a child of God through Christ Jesus.

For those born of God, they also have the danger of falling away from Him to influence by that other spiritual nature, so those must by Faith on Christ learn to overcome the ways of this world and the negative influence of Satan and his children.

Then there's the subject of the election. With those which God has chosen, they 'already' belong to Him and His Son, and were born to serve Him and The Gospel no matter what. Apostle Paul is a prime example. Those cannot be turned away from Christ, for they are His elect chosen. Most do not consider that Satan may have his own chosen elect servants too, those that won't turn away from following him that represent Paul's "mystery of iniquity", Apostle John's "many antichrists" and the "workers of iniquity" per Old Testament history.

One can get into a whole lot of supposition of why God chose some to serve Him and The Gospel with His already owning them and having 'sent' them into this world (John 17), but we were told those were chosen before the foundations of the earth, meaning before the start of this world (Ephesians 2).

True Israel is Alive and Well.

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