Gen. 16:12...Do Christians believe it?

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Stranger

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This verse is clear that the Arab peoples will be a wild donkey man. A wild ass no one can tame, and they will be against all other men, and all other men against him.

Do you believe it? Probably not, cause you would be called a racist if you did. But, can you not see it being played out on a daily basis?

Be honest.

Stranger
 

Taken

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This verse is clear that the Arab peoples will be a wild donkey man. A wild ass no one can tame, and they will be against all other men, and all other men against him.

Do you believe it? Probably not, cause you would be called a racist if you did. But, can you not see it being played out on a daily basis?

Be honest.

Stranger

Not a problem to trust to believe Scripture...
Even when others are offended by the truth.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Enoch111

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This verse is clear that the Arab peoples will be a wild donkey man. A wild ass no one can tame, and they will be against all other men, and all other men against him.
Here is the verse you have referred to: And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

John Gill's commentary helps to understand this better:
And he will be a wild man,.... Living in a wilderness, delighting in hunting and killing wild beasts, and robbing and plundering all that pass by; and such an one Ishmael was, see Genesis 21:20; and such the Saracens, his posterity, were, and such the wild Arabs are to this day, who descended from him; or "the wild ass of a man" (t); or "a wild ass among men", as Onkelos; or "like to a wild ass among men", as the Targum of Jonathan; wild, fierce, untamed, not subject to a yoke, and impatient of it, see Job 11:12; such was Ishmael, and such are his posterity, who never could be subdued or brought into bondage, neither by the Assyrians, nor Medes and Persians, nor by the Greeks nor Romans, nor any other people (u); and at this day the Arabs live independent on the Turks, nay, oblige the Turks to pay a yearly tribute for the passage of their pilgrims to Mecca, and also to pay for their caravans that pass through their country, as travellers into those parts unanimously report; wherefore Aben Ezra translates the word rendered "wild", or "wild ass", by "free", and refers to the passage in Job 39:5. These people having been always free, and never in bondage, always lived as free booters upon others:

The Arabs have been under the influence of Islam for about 1400 years, and Islam used the sword to forcibly convert others. Today we have Radical Islam wanting to do the same thing worldwide which engaging is terrorist acts and wanting to establish a Caliphate.
 

Stranger

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muhammad created a religion, islam, just for the Arab people that fits their nature. That nature is perfectly described in the Bible. And their nature will not change. A wild man whose hand is against every man and every man's hand will be against him. And yet the U.S allows them political power.

Stranger
 

charity

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[QUOTE="Stranger, post: 609377, member: 7282"
]This verse is clear that the Arab peoples will be a wild donkey man. A wild ass no one can tame, and they will be against all other men, and all other men against him.

Do you believe it? Probably not, cause you would be called a racist if you did. But, can you not see it being played out on a daily basis?

Be honest.
Stranger
[/QUOTE]
Hello Stranger,

I understand why you are saying this, but do not think we should attribute what we see evidenced to Ishmael's offspring. For Abraham had six other sons, other than Ishmael, apart from Isaac (with whom God would establish His covenant - Genesis 17:21). Should not the whole story be told, rather than take one verse out of it's context, no matter how apparently appropriate to present world affairs it may appear?

'And the angel of the LORD said unto her,
.. Behold, thou art with child,
.... and shalt bear a son,
...... and shalt call his name Ishmael;
........ because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man;
.. his hand will be against every man,
.... and every man's hand against him;
...... and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.'

(Gen. 16:10-12)

'And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! ... ...
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee:
.. Behold, I have blessed him,
.... and will make him fruitful,

...... and will multiply him exceedingly;
........ twelve princes shall he beget,
.......... and I will make him a great nation.'

(Gen 17:18 & 20)

'And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation,
.. because he is thy seed.'

(Gen 21:13)
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand;
.. for I will make him a great nation.'

(Gen 21:18)

'And God was with the lad; and he grew,
.. and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran:
.. and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.'

(Gen 21:20-21)

Then Abraham gave up the ghost,
.. and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years;
.... and was gathered to his people.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah,
.. in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre; ... '

(Gen 25:8-9)

'Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son,
.. whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations:

the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael,

and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles;
twelve princes according to their nations.
And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years:
.. and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur,
.. that is before Egypt,
.... as thou goest toward Assyria:
...... and he died in the presence of all his brethren.'

(Gen 25:12-18)

-----------------------------------------------

'Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan,
and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan.
And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah.
All these were the children of Keturah.
And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had,
Abraham gave gifts,
and sent them away from Isaac his son,
while he yet lived,
eastward, unto the east country.'

(Gen 25:1-6)

* 1 Chronicles 1

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Stranger

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@charity

First, how did I take the verse out of context?

Second, the verses you give neither add to or take away from what I have said, or what the verse I quoted said. Has it?

Stranger
 
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charity

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Hello Stranger,

I understand why you are saying this, but do not think we should attribute what we see evidenced to Ishmael's offspring. For Abraham had six other sons, other than Ishmael, apart from Isaac (with whom God would establish His covenant - Genesis 17:21). Should not the whole story be told, rather than take one verse out of it's context, no matter how apparently appropriate to present world affairs it may appear?

'And the angel of the LORD said unto her,
.. Behold, thou art with child,
.... and shalt bear a son,
...... and shalt call his name Ishmael;
........ because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man;
.. his hand will be against every man,
.... and every man's hand against him;
...... and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.'

(Gen. 16:10-12)

'And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! ... ...
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee:
.. Behold, I have blessed him,
.... and will make him fruitful,

...... and will multiply him exceedingly;
........ twelve princes shall he beget,
.......... and I will make him a great nation.'

(Gen 17:18 & 20)

'And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation,
.. because he is thy seed.'

(Gen 21:13)
Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand;
.. for I will make him a great nation.'

(Gen 21:18)

'And God was with the lad; and he grew,
.. and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran:
.. and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.'

(Gen 21:20-21)

Then Abraham gave up the ghost,
.. and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years;
.... and was gathered to his people.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah,
.. in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre; ... '

(Gen 25:8-9)

'Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son,
.. whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations:

the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael,

and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles;
twelve princes according to their nations.
And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years:
.. and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur,
.. that is before Egypt,
.... as thou goest toward Assyria:
...... and he died in the presence of all his brethren.'

(Gen 25:12-18)

-----------------------------------------------

'Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan,
and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan.
And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah.
All these were the children of Keturah.
And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had,
Abraham gave gifts,
and sent them away from Isaac his son,
while he yet lived,
eastward, unto the east country.'

(Gen 25:1-6)

* 1 Chronicles 1

In Christ Jesus
Chris

First, how did I take the verse out of context?

Second, the verses you give neither add to or take away from what I have said, or what the verse I quoted said. Has it?

Stranger[/QUOTE]
Hello @Stranger,

Please don't be offended by me. I was not trying to prove a point. I quoted those verses for my own benefit as much as anything, for I wanted to see what the Scriptures had to say about Ishmael as a whole. I seek not to add or take away from what you have said. But what you have quoted is just part of the whole isn't it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Stranger

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@charity

No problem, I am not offended. I just don't see how I took the verses out of context.

You say 'Ephraim' as a whole. Yet, Ephraim is not the Arab people. So, I do not understand.

What I quoted is part of the whole, but is truthful of the whole. No matter what God does with the Arab people, they will always be exactly as He described in (Gen. 16:12). It will be so, because He has declared it so. The same is true with the prophecies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Appreciate your comments.

Stranger
 
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charity

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Hello @Stranger,

Please don't be offended by me. I was not trying to prove a point. I quoted those verses for my own benefit as much as anything, for I wanted to see what the Scriptures had to say about Ishmael as a whole. I seek not to add or take away from what you have said. But what you have quoted is just part of the whole isn't it.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

No problem, I am not offended. I just don't see how I took the verses out of context.

You say 'Ephraim' as a whole. Yet, Ephraim is not the Arab people. So, I do not understand.

What I quoted is part of the whole, but is truthful of the whole. No matter what God does with the Arab people, they will always be exactly as He described in (Gen. 16:12). It will be so, because He has declared it so. The same is true with the prophecies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Appreciate your comments.

Stranger
[/QUOTE]
Forgive my ignorance, @Stranger, but on what evidence is Ishmael the Father of the Arab nations?
The Bible does not appear to confirm this.

Genesis 16:12 is descriptive of the nature of Ishmael and his offspring, yes, but there were 6 other sons of Abraham who were gifted by Abraham and sent away to the east (Genesis 25:6).

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Enoch111

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And yet the U.S allows them political power.
Just shows the total stupidity of American politicians. They still have no idea about Islam. Muslims should have been barred from public office in the USA (or any Western country) for the simple reason that they would NEVER put the Constitution above the Quran (which also allow them to lie about such matters in order to occupy infidel lands).They have sought public office to undermine the Constitution and the America. Christians would never be allowed to take public office in Muslim lands.

The ultimate goal of Islam is to establish Sharia Law and a Muslim Caliphate in the West. ISIS was already hard at it, but all Muslims worldwide are being radicalized by their imams. There are thousands of Muslim mosques in the West, but Christian churches are forbidden in Muslim lands, and where they do exist, Christians are persecuted.
 

Enoch111

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Forgive my ignorance, @Stranger, but on what evidence is Ishmael the Father of the Arab nations? The Bible does not appear to confirm this.
The Bible does not focus on Ishmael but on Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. While Cush (the son of Ham) is the ancestor of the majority of Arab nations, Ishmael is also another ancestor of Arabs -- the Ishmaelites.

In spite of the fact that Ishmael was not the child of promise, God actually blessed Him (Gen 17:20): And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

These are listed in Genesis 25:12-18:
12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these
are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, [1] Nebajoth [Nabatea from the Euphrates to the Red Sea]; and [2] Kedar [NW Arabia], and [3] Adbeel [Sinai Peninsula], and [4] Mibsam [?],
14 And [5] Mishma [NE Arabia], and [6] Dumah [NW Arabia], and [7] Massa [northern Arabia],
15
[8] Hadar [or Hadad in Arabia], and [9] Tema [Tayma,in western Arabia], [10] Jetur [possibly Iturea in Lebanon], [11] Naphish [?], and [12] Kedemah [?]:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

17And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

18And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.




 
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charity

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@charity

No problem, I am not offended. I just don't see how I took the verses out of context.

You say 'Ephraim' as a whole. Yet, Ishmael
@charity

No problem, I am not offended. I just don't see how I took the verses out of context.

You say 'Ephraim' as a whole. Yet, Ephraim is not the Arab people. So, I do not understand.

What I quoted is part of the whole, but is truthful of the whole. No matter what God does with the Arab people, they will always be exactly as He described in (Gen. 16:12). It will be so, because He has declared it so. The same is true with the prophecies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Appreciate your comments.

Stranger

is not the Arab people. So, I do not understand.

What I quoted is part of the whole, but is truthful of the whole. No matter what God does with the Arab people, they will always be exactly as He described in (Gen. 16:12). It will be so, because He has declared it so. The same is true with the prophecies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Appreciate your comments.

Stranger
Hello @Stranger

Sorry to have confused you, when I mistakenly typed in Ephraim instead of Ishmael.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Stranger

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@charity

Concerning (Gen. 16:12) Morris says, "God also foretold the nature of her son, that he would be, literally, 'a wild ass of a man,' one who would be perpetually in conflict with others, dwelling 'against the face of his brethren.' The long history of the Arab peoples, who are descended from Ishmael,is an obvious commentary on the fulfillment of this ancient prophecy, seen most vividly at present in the current Israeli-Arab hostilities." (The Genesis Record, Henry Morris, Baker, 1976, p. 331)

JFB says, "Like other Hebrew names, this had a signification, and it is made up of two words--'God hears'. The reason is explained. 12. a wild man--lit., a wild ass man, expressing how the disposition of Ishmael and his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him--descriptive of the rude, turbulent, and plundering character of the Arabs.(A Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Eerdmans, 1990, vol. 1, p. 150)

Stranger
 
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charity

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@charity

Concerning (Gen. 16:12) Morris says, "God also foretold the nature of her son, that he would be, literally, 'a wild ass of a man,' one who would be perpetually in conflict with others, dwelling 'against the face of his brethren.' The long history of the Arab peoples, who are descended from Ishmael,is an obvious commentary on the fulfillment of this ancient prophecy, seen most vividly at present in the current Israeli-Arab hostilities." (The Genesis Record, Henry Morris, Baker, 1976, p. 331)

JFB says, "Like other Hebrew names, this had a signification, and it is made up of two words--'God hears'. The reason is explained. 12. a wild man--lit., a wild ass man, expressing how the disposition of Ishmael and his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him--descriptive of the rude, turbulent, and plundering character of the Arabs.(A Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Eerdmans, 1990, vol. 1, p. 150)

Stranger

Thank you, @Stranger.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris