Spiritual versus Religious

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Stranger

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And I also see what point you are trying to make about spirituality not being about our connection with others, but effecting our relationships. When I was looking up scriptures though, I notice many times that when talking about spirituality, the church is being addressed. For example Romans 12:1

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Romans 12:1 NASB

So I think being in a body of believers that are in agreement spiritually can deepen and encourage our personal, intimate relationships with God.

Yes, I agree. We who are Christian want to be governed by the Spirit of God, even though at times we are not. We want to be Spiritual, in connection with God.

Our spirituality is based upon our being right with God, not doing things that make us appear good. Because we are Spiritual, being right with God, then our actions will reflect the leading of the Spirit.

But, God can hate Esau. God can hate His enemies. Do you hate Esau and the enemies of God? Do you see? aspen will say, you are to love and not hate. That itself proves his spirituality. But that is the tail wagging the dog. If we are in tune with God's Spirit, then we will be led by the Spirit of God. Not by the deeds of man, be they good or bad in our observance.

Once satan sees you are defining a spiritual Christian as one who always loves and never hates, he is going to come as one who loves, loves, loves. My oh my, what a godly spiritual man that is. That is a spirituality that is acceptable to man. But not to God.

Stranger
 

Mayflower

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Yes, I agree. We who are Christian want to be governed by the Spirit of God, even though at times we are not. We want to be Spiritual, in connection with God.

Our spirituality is based upon our being right with God, not doing things that make us appear good. Because we are Spiritual, being right with God, then our actions will reflect the leading of the Spirit.

But, God can hate Esau. God can hate His enemies. Do you hate Esau and the enemies of God? Do you see? aspen will say, you are to love and not hate. That itself proves his spirituality. But that is the tail wagging the dog. If we are in tune with God's Spirit, then we will be led by the Spirit of God. Not by the deeds of man, be they good or bad in our observance.

Once satan sees you are defining a spiritual Christian as one who always loves and never hates, he is going to come as one who loves, loves, loves. My oh my, what a godly spiritual man that is. That is a spirituality that is acceptable to man. But not to God.

Stranger

How do you interpret this verse?

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 NASB
 
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Stranger

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How do you interpret this verse?

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 NASB

If by this equation you mean to say anyone who has committed murder cannot have eternal life, I would only ask you to consider Moses, or David. That being considered, we know the conclusion of this equation cannot be true.

So, what does it mean? Moses murdered. David murdered. But neither Moses or David were murderers. They were guilty of the sin of murder, but they were not murderers. God sees the difference.

Read (1 Cor. 6:8-10). That describes the people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Oh, I know there are many self-righteous here who will not admit that they find themselves guilty as hell in these verses. But the truth is, we do see ourselves in these verses. But then what does God say? (1 Cor. 6:11) "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified...."

Note that God never says here, " but you keep doing these same durn things...what is wrong with you" No. He says, 'And such were some of you'.

In other words, you are not that anymore. I, God, do not see you as that anymore. It doesn't matter if you do that....I, God, do not see you as that. And God can do that on the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (Rom. 4:17) "...and calleth those things which be not as though they were." So if you are not that, then quit doing that.

Now, does such knowledge of the love of God cause you to want to go out and see what all you can get away with. Of course not. It doesn't mean you won't sin. Doesn't mean you won't rebel. But God keeps saying, 'and such were some of you'. But you are not that now.

Also, my brother is another in Christ. He is not the man of the world.

Stranger
 

Mayflower

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The worldings love, yet they are not born of God. Did Cain love his children? Did Judas love his family? Everyone who will be in hell for eternity loved someone.

Stranger

I don't believe "worldlings" can know or show true love. Because God is love and love is from God.

Hate is likened to murder, because it is sin. We are to love, love, love!!!! From what I understand you were talking about from Aspen, is that Christians should hate. Not just love. Do you believe that God hates the sin and the sinner? I know that we are to hate the sin. But I don't see anywhere in God's Word to hate the sinner. I see things like in Romans 12:

Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “V engeance is M ine , I will repay ,” says the Lord. “B ut if your enemy is hungry , feed him , and if he is thirsty , give him a drink ; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head .” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:16‭-‬21 NASB

I like that part "if possible, so far as it is done by you..." Only through God is this possible. Religion alone can't do this. One must be super strong in spirit to love their enemies.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I don't believe "worldlings" can know or show true love. Because God is love and love is from God.

Hate is likened to murder, because it is sin. We are to love, love, love!!!! From what I understand you were talking about from Aspen, is that Christians should hate. Not just love. Do you believe that God hates the sin and the sinner? I know that we are to hate the sin. But I don't see anywhere in God's Word to hate the sinner. I see things like in Romans 12:

Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “V engeance is M ine , I will repay ,” says the Lord. “B ut if your enemy is hungry , feed him , and if he is thirsty , give him a drink ; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head .” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:16‭-‬21 NASB

I like that part "if possible, so far as it is done by you..." Only through God is this possible. Religion alone can't do this. One must be super strong in spirit to love their enemies.

Wish there was a way to like a post more than once. “If possible” ...never noticed that Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

...even possible to love your enemies!!
 
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aspen

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I am not sure mayflower where you got that - I think hate is sinful and I don’t believe we are called to hate at all. Oh I think you are posting to someone else - never mind
 
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Stranger

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I don't believe "worldlings" can know or show true love. Because God is love and love is from God.

Hate is likened to murder, because it is sin. We are to love, love, love!!!! From what I understand you were talking about from Aspen, is that Christians should hate. Not just love. Do you believe that God hates the sin and the sinner? I know that we are to hate the sin. But I don't see anywhere in God's Word to hate the sinner. I see things like in Romans 12:

Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “V engeance is M ine , I will repay ,” says the Lord. “B ut if your enemy is hungry , feed him , and if he is thirsty , give him a drink ; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head .” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:16‭-‬21 NASB

I like that part "if possible, so far as it is done by you..." Only through God is this possible. Religion alone can't do this. One must be super strong in spirit to love their enemies.

Well, when you say 'true love' you define love as only from the Spirit of God. Which would mean of course that the worldling cannot express that love. But to say the man who does not know God cannot love his family, just isn't so. They are in the image of God and can exercise all the attributes of that image.

'Hate the sin but love the sinner'. I wonder why we don't divide 'love' up like that. When you do those good things that we believe are acts of love, we should love those good things you do, but not love you. That is really not a bad idea when it comes to those who have not the Spirit of God but are doing good things. We can love those things but not the one doing them, as they are not of God. Just thinking outloud here.

Paul tells us we are to love without hypocrisy. (Rom. 12:9) "Let love be without dissimulation...." How does one love without being a hypocrite? Here again, how can love be defined? It can't. It is like defining 'beauty'. It is real though. And the love of God does reside in the believer. (12:9) goes on to say, "...Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Or, hate that which is evil. This is how God's love can be represented. Hating that which is evil and cleaving to that which is good. This is love without hypocrisy.

(Pro. 6:16-19) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

These things involve a 'person'. The eyes, the tongue, the hands, the heart, the feet, a false witness, he that soweth discord. No attempt here to divide the person from that which is hated. So, hate cannot be a sin. What if you love that which God hates? That would be a sin.

So, yes, we are to love, love, love. But not to the degree that we love the things God hates. And to separate these 7 things listed in (Proverbs) from the person is impossible. Love without hypocrisy. Hate that which is evil. Cleave to that which is good.

(Rom. 12:18) "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Neither Jesus or Paul lived peaceably with all men. But as much as possible they did. Their lives were full of conflict and unrest.

Stranger
 
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Mayflower

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Well, when you say 'true love' you define love as only from the Spirit of God. Which would mean of course that the worldling cannot express that love. But to say the man who does not know God cannot love his family, just isn't so. They are in the image of God and can exercise all the attributes of that image.

'Hate the sin but love the sinner'. I wonder why we don't divide 'love' up like that. When you do those good things that we believe are acts of love, we should love those good things you do, but not love you. That is really not a bad idea when it comes to those who have not the Spirit of God but are doing good things. We can love those things but not the one doing them, as they are not of God. Just thinking outloud here.

Paul tells us we are to love without hypocrisy. (Rom. 12:9) "Let love be without dissimulation...." How does one love without being a hypocrite? Here again, how can love be defined? It can't. It is like defining 'beauty'. It is real though. And the love of God does reside in the believer. (12:9) goes on to say, "...Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Or, hate that which is evil. This is how God's love can be represented. Hating that which is evil and cleaving to that which is good. This is love without hypocrisy.

(Pro. 6:16-19) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

These things involve a 'person'. The eyes, the tongue, the hands, the heart, the feet, a false witness, he that soweth discord. No attempt here to divide the person from that which is hated. So, hate cannot be a sin. What if you love that which God hates? That would be a sin.

So, yes, we are to love, love, love. But not to the degree that we love the things God hates. And to separate these 7 things listed in (Proverbs) from the person is impossible. Love without hypocrisy. Hate that which is evil. Cleave to that which is good.

(Rom. 12:18) "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Neither Jesus or Paul lived peaceably with all men. But as much as possible they did. Their lives were full of conflict and unrest.

Stranger

Ill have more time to respond later. Havent got to read this well to follow you. But one thing I see is that you said we can love the deeds someone does, but not the person just like I said you should hate the sin but love the sinner.I believe both of these can be true. But Galations says we are to think about everything that is good. And the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves. So while my statement should be exercised, your statement should be avoided. I'll be back on later before I have to hate the trouble my toddler is going to get into. :D
 
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Mayflower

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Well, when you say 'true love' you define love as only from the Spirit of God. Which would mean of course that the worldling cannot express that love. But to say the man who does not know God cannot love his family, just isn't so. They are in the image of God and can exercise all the attributes of that image.

'Hate the sin but love the sinner'. I wonder why we don't divide 'love' up like that. When you do those good things that we believe are acts of love, we should love those good things you do, but not love you. That is really not a bad idea when it comes to those who have not the Spirit of God but are doing good things. We can love those things but not the one doing them, as they are not of God. Just thinking outloud here.

Paul tells us we are to love without hypocrisy. (Rom. 12:9) "Let love be without dissimulation...." How does one love without being a hypocrite? Here again, how can love be defined? It can't. It is like defining 'beauty'. It is real though. And the love of God does reside in the believer. (12:9) goes on to say, "...Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Or, hate that which is evil. This is how God's love can be represented. Hating that which is evil and cleaving to that which is good. This is love without hypocrisy.

(Pro. 6:16-19) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him. A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

These things involve a 'person'. The eyes, the tongue, the hands, the heart, the feet, a false witness, he that soweth discord. No attempt here to divide the person from that which is hated. So, hate cannot be a sin. What if you love that which God hates? That would be a sin.

So, yes, we are to love, love, love. But not to the degree that we love the things God hates. And to separate these 7 things listed in (Proverbs) from the person is impossible. Love without hypocrisy. Hate that which is evil. Cleave to that which is good.

(Rom. 12:18) "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Neither Jesus or Paul lived peaceably with all men. But as much as possible they did. Their lives were full of conflict and unrest.

Stranger

Oh okay. Noe I follow you. Yes. I agree with you. We are to hate the THINGS God hates. Not His creation. His creation is made to love.
 

Mayflower

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I am not sure mayflower where you got that - I think hate is sinful and I don’t believe we are called to hate at all. Oh I think you are posting to someone else - never mind

Yeh was responding to Stranger. :)
 
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farouk

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Ill have more time to respond later. Havent got to read this well to follow you. But one thing I see is that you said we can love the deeds someone does, but not the person just like I said you should hate the sin but love the sinner.I believe both of these can be true. But Galations says we are to think about everything that is good. And the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves. So while my statement should be exercised, your statement should be avoided. I'll be back on later before I have to hate the trouble my toddler is going to get into. :D
Philippians 4.8: 'Whatsoever things are true...honest...just...pure...lovely...of good report...if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things'. :)
 

farouk

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How do you interpret this verse?

Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 NASB
John's First Epistle is indeed so searching. I remember once I was away in a hotel and I read from John's First Epistle and it was so searching.
 
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Stranger

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Ill have more time to respond later. Havent got to read this well to follow you. But one thing I see is that you said we can love the deeds someone does, but not the person just like I said you should hate the sin but love the sinner.I believe both of these can be true. But Galations says we are to think about everything that is good. And the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves. So while my statement should be exercised, your statement should be avoided. I'll be back on later before I have to hate the trouble my toddler is going to get into. :D

My statement which you said should be avoided, wasn't really a statement. I was just mulling over the fact that we always divide hate up, but not love. Which is why I ended the paragraph with, 'just thinking outloud'. In other words we are taught and conditioned to believe hate is sin. And it isn't. So we must divide it so that we can direct it where we arn't really 'hating'.

But when we talk about love, oh my. That is a blanket command which applies to the four corners of the earth. We are to love, and it doesn't matter the who are what, we are to just love. And if we don't love then we are not right with God. God hated Esau. You already know that I'm sure. Should you love Esau? Had you lived in Esau's day, do you think you would have loved him? If you loved Esau by command, would God be pleased? If I hated Esau, cause I know I am the only hater here, would God have been displeased? Of course there was no law at that time, and it would have been unknown by writing that God hated Esau. But God is still God and Esau is still Esau.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Oh okay. Noe I follow you. Yes. I agree with you. We are to hate the THINGS God hates. Not His creation. His creation is made to love.


But we also are not to love the world, which God loves. (John 3:16) (1 John 2:15)

Stranger