Understanding Romans 6 is critically important

Zachary said:

who want their cake (salvation) ... and want to eat it (sin) too.

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Because Luther's idea of 'faith only' does not fit with what Paul wrote in Romans 6:16-18.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Because Luther's idea of 'faith only' does not fit with what Paul wrote in Romans 6:16-18.

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A living faith will make a person into a new creature in Christ; and good works / a holy life will definitely be the norm for those who have been thus transformed.

However, the transformation itself is not accomplished by any works on our part. In this sense, it is indeed by faith alone.

justbyfaith said:

A living faith will make a person into a new creature in Christ; and good works / a holy life will definitely be the norm for those who have been thus transformed.

However, the transformation itself is not accomplished by any works on our part. In this sense, it is indeed by faith alone.

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"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Not a single case in the Bible of anyone being justified by disobeying God.

Ernest T. Bass said:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Not a single case in the Bible of anyone being justified by disobeying God.

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There are no instances in the Bible, either, of anyone being justified by doing some good work apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:6, Ephesians 2:9, Romans 11:5-6, and Titus 3:4-7, are clear: and they show that the regeneration and renewal of our osuls does not take place through any works of righteousness which we have done.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

To be born again, I do not perform some good work in order to obtain salvation. It is by simple faith in Jesus Christ.

Good works will follow if my faith is genuine.

Nevertheless, my salvation is neither maintained by good works; but rather I abide in Him through faith, Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3.

Zachary said:

You fail to see the BAC's part in all of this!
We have the free-will to choose to co-operate with God the Holy Spirit

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No, I have not failed to see our part in this. For my definition of a living faith is that it includes surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

justbyfaith said:

There are no instances in the Bible, either, of anyone being justified by doing some good work apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:6, Ephesians 2:9, Romans 11:5-6, and Titus 3:4-7, are clear: and they show that the regeneration and renewal of our osuls does not take place through any works of righteousness which we have done.

Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

To be born again, I do not perform some good work in order to obtain salvation. It is by simple faith in Jesus Christ.

Good works will follow if my faith is genuine.

Nevertheless, my salvation is neither maintained by good works; but rather I abide in Him through faith, Romans 1:17, Colossians 2:6, Galatians 3:1-3.

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I never have argued that one can be justified by good works apart from faith in Christ. Yet the Bible does teach one is justified by obeying Christ. What the Bible does not teach is justification by disobeying God.



John 3:5-------------------born of water and Spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Matthew 7:21------------doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the Bible does not contradict itself then being born again would be doing the will of God. For being born again is water baptism which has been commanded by God. Submitting to water baptism is faithful obedience to the will of God and not a good work to try and earn brownie points with God. Therefore it takes obedience to BECOME saved and obedience in doing good works to REMAIN saved.

Zachary said:

(1) please see Matthew 25 and the book of James

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Those passages cannot contradict the reality of the passages that I have referenced.

Zachary said:

(2) please realize that our salvation must be maintained ...
via such as obedience, practicing righteousness, etc.

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No, salvation is maintained by faith; and living faith produces obedience, practicing righteousness, etc.

However, the obedience, practicing righteousness, etc. does not save us or maintain our salvation.

Zachary said:

It takes obedience to remain saved.
It takes doing good works to remain saved.

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Obedience is the outcropping of a continued salvation.

You have put the cart in front of the horse.

Zachary said:

If thou doesn't mind me saying so ... you are hopeless!
And there are many on Christian forums who are.
.

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I have more hope than you could even imagine.

I have been born again through faith in Jesus Christ; and remain born again through continued faith in Jesus Christ.

I am resting in His grace. I don't have to give away $10 to a homeless man tomorrow in order to prove to myself that I am saved.

But I might just do that because I am saved; because He has shed abroad His love in my heart.

Zachary said:

I'm not sure that it takes obedience to become saved
... IMO, it's more like accepting the invitation.
.

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But who ever was saved by being disobedient?

Remember from Romans 6:16 if one is not serving "obedience UNTO righteousness" then he is serving "sin unto death".

The disobedient are serving sin unto death.

Ernest T. Bass said:

But who ever was saved by being disobedient?

Remember from Romans 6:16 if one is not serving "obedience UNTO righteousness" then he is serving "sin unto death".

The disobedient are serving sin unto death.

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Are you preaching sinless perfection here?

Obviously, being disobedient in our mess-ups is not going to put us out of the kingdom; for He justifieth the ungodly.

Being disobedient won't save anyone; just like being obedient won't save anyone.

We will be obedient if and because we are saved.

Your view turns works/obedience into a means for earning salvation.

In my view we do good works because we have been saved. This is the only sound view of what the scripture teaches: that we are born again unto the doing of good works. If you do good works unto being born again, then that is salvation by works. But such a concept is refuted by Ephesians 2:8-9 and other passages.

Faith without works is dead. And that should tell you that, also, works without faith is dead (Hebrews 6:1). It should tell you that works need to accompany faith in order for it to be a living faith. But if I have works without faith, then they are not accompanying faith. They are by themselves.

Heb 4:10, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

I rest securely in the grace of the Lord. Therefore when I do labour, it is a labour of love; and it does not even feel as though I am striving or straining in my flesh. I do it with joy out of love for others; not to save myself.

justbyfaith said:

Are you preaching sinless perfection here?

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No. All I have ever said that is needed to be saved is a faithful obedience.

justbyfaith said:

Obviously, being disobedient in our mess-ups is not going to put us out of the kingdom; for He justifieth the ungodly.

Being disobedient won't save anyone; just like being obedient won't save anyone.

We will be obedient if and because we are saved.

Your view turns works/obedience into a means for earning salvation.

In my view we do good works because we have been saved. This is the only sound view of what the scripture teaches: that we are born again unto the doing of good works. If you do good works unto being born again, then that is salvation by works. But such a concept is refuted by Ephesians 2:8-9 and other passages.

Faith without works is dead. And that should tell you that, also, works without faith is dead (Hebrews 6:1). It should tell you that works need to accompany faith in order for it to be a living faith. But if I have works without faith, then they are not accompanying faith. They are by themselves.

Heb 4:10, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

I rest securely in the grace of the Lord. Therefore when I do labour, it is a labour of love; and it does not even feel as though I am striving or straining in my flesh. I do it with joy out of love for others; not to save myself.

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--A Christian will not be perfect in his obedience therefore must repent of his sins. Therefore repentance is part of the required obedience of a Christian.

--obedience does not earn salvation...Hebrews 11:7 the saving of Noah's house was by God's grace but God's free gift required Noah do the obedient work in building the ark to procure grace. There is a difference between working to earn something and meeting the conditions plae upon a free gift. Until people acknowledge that difference they will never have an accurate understanding of God's grace.

--faith must always be accompanied with works for it is dead without them and a dead faith cannot save.

--it takes striving to enter heaven Luke 13:24.

--disobedience never saved anyone, sitting idle never saved anyone.

Ernest T. Bass said:

in building the ark to procure grace.

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Noah "found grace in the eyes of the LORD" before he built the ark.

Ernest T. Bass said:

--it takes striving to enter heaven Luke 13:24.

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It takes striving to enter into salvation....once you are saved, no more striving is necessary.

Heb 4:10, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11, Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ernest T. Bass said:

--disobedience never saved anyone, sitting idle never saved anyone.

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Doing a good work for God never saved anyone either.

Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7, Ephesians 2:8-9.

If I sit idle in church and then respond to the gospel message, surrendering my life to Christ, I will be saved (though actually I am already saved, I am just using a literary tactic to make my point).

justbyfaith said:

Noah "found grace in the eyes of the LORD" before he built the ark.

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Yes, Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he was a righteous man, blameless in his generations and he walked with God (Genesis 6:9) that obediently did all the Lord commanded him (Genesis 6:22).

Yet this righteous, blameless man who walked with God, his house would not have been saved by God's grace had Noah disobeyed God in refusing to build the ark. It took obedience on Noah's part for his house to graciously be saved. And that obedient work earned him NOHTING. The obedient work in building the ark was a necessary condition God put upon His grace. Therefore it is a false argument, a strawman argument for anyone to claim that obedience is an attempt to earn or merit the grace of God.

We today need to find grace in the eyes of God, not because God is going to destroy the world with a flood, but because a day is coming when Christ will return and the world and everything in it will be burned up in a fire (2 Peter 3:10). So we, like Noah, must be righteous and we are righteous by an obedient faith as Noah had ('obedience unto righteousness - Romans 6:16) we can be blameless and without spot in Christ (2 Peter 3:14) and walk with God (Ephesians 5:1-2)

justbyfaith said:

It takes striving to enter into salvation....once you are saved, no more striving is necessary.

Heb 4:10, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11, Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

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Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

No one will enter the strait gate without striving. The purpose of the striving is to enter in the strait gate.


You posted "It takes striving to enter into salvation".
You admit at least one must strive to become saved.

justbyfaith said:

Doing a good work for God never saved anyone either.

Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7, Ephesians 2:8-9.

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I have never argued that doing good works will saved anyone. I have said over and over it takes an obedient faith in doing the will of God to be saved. An atheist can do all the good works in the world but they will not save him. Not until he OBEYS God's plan of salvation for man in believing (John 8:24) repenting (Luke 13:3) confessing Christ (Matthew 10:32-33) and submitting to baptism for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) can he be saved.

And we still remain with the fact that disobedience does not save anyone.

justbyfaith said:

If I sit idle in church and then respond to the gospel message, surrendering my life to Christ, I will be saved (though actually I am already saved, I am just using a literary tactic to make my point).

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If a person sits idle and continues to sit idle he will never be saved. Man has a role in his own salvation in obeying God's plan of salvation. Again, there is no example in the NT gospel of a disobedient person (one who had not obeyed God's plan of savlation) that was unconditionally saved while he continued in disobedience, rebellion to God. Sitting idle is disobedience to God.