The saints of Israel

Davy · Aug 23, 2019

Reggie Belafonte said:
My Kingdom is not of this world means not of your world or of your Sinful world or mans works, but of the Holy Spirit first and foremost in ones life is now yours.

When one is truly born again then one is in the Kingdom of God, that means that such is within you, that does not mean that the battle has been won over all the world yet in this time but as to the second coming such will be his Kingdom on earth and people will still have a flesh and blood but serve Jesus Christ only, because all will be born again under the Kingdom. Christ Jesus will be every ones King.

The only spiritual body is that that goes to Heaven. Kingdom of God is on earth and we are all flesh and blood but born again under the Kingdom of the King of Israel = such are the servants of God.

The Saints are born again, they have strength over Sin, Sin does not dominate over such a one, as they understand the workings of Sin and can deal with such because they have a handle on it's workings, not that they do not Sin, just that they are not under the power of such like a fools is.

Christ's future Kingdom will be a literal, physical kingdom, on this earth. The heavenly dimension is going to be opened up on... this earth. When the future "lake of fire" is over, then God's new heavens and a new earth means His Garden of Eden will leave the heavenly dimension where He is now, and will return to this earth. It was once here, upon this earth (Gen.2). This is why Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 reveals God's River and tree of life back on this earth.

So man's dream castles in the clouds with no earth is just that, a dream castle that is not written in God's Word. God's heavenly cube will extend above the earth, but its base will be on the earth, as written.

When someone believes on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ, they become like a "new creature" inside (Apostle Paul's symbol). That is to point to the future manifestation of the sons of God in Christ's future Kingdom on earth, in the world to come. It is not pointing to this present world (1 John 3:2).

Satan try's to make out that all people are totally corrupt regardless and that all Sins are of the same gravity.

Satanist try to undermine the human interaction between God and Man and that's why they hate Jesus Christ and peddle that the second coming is only a desirable thing, pointing to that there means justify the ends as in disregarding the hellfire to come before such, but then entice you to into a false security that you will be raptured out of their before the hellfire, that they have created or peddled comes, so in that bag of nonsense one must desire that your loved ones are toast, I do not support such at all as that is the working of malice and anyone who supports malice in anyway is of Satan as the Devil is in the detail ! it is clearly seen. like why would one wanted to create WW2 ? when you know that WW3 will be 7 times worse. give over ! such a one must be of Satan or a total moron to wish or hope that on anyone. I despise people like that as they are the lowest of the low and they will be going to Hell, as it is said they will reap what they have sown, one can not serve two Masters.

There will not be any WW3. Satan's host only use that as a scare tactic to get power over the masses, just like they have used it for years upon little school children. Lot of U.S. military leaders at the end of WW2 didn't want to use the atomic bomb, said they could defeat Japan without using it. Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley said certain U.S. leaders wanted to usher the world into the atomic age, so they rushed to use it. Couldn't make the world believe the nuclear threat was real without using it as an example. Japan was the scapegoat. It changed everything, its purpose was to empower the United Nations apparatus, which the U.N. today is the primary mover towards a 'one world government', which will create the Rev.13 world beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

The people who use "the end justifies the means" philosophy are the Communists, not God's people. Careful who you listen to.

Keraz · Aug 23, 2019

farouk said:
I struggle with replacement theology, also. I just don't see the church in the Old Testament, either.

No one is arguing that the Church has magically become Israel, rather; this is confirming the apostolic testimony that the Church is the believing remnant within Israel and which has existed from the time of Moses at the Exodus, until today.

The Church did not replace or become Israel, The Church always was Israel. True Israel was always the believing remnant. According to Scripture:
1) Jewish followers of Christ are ethnic Israelis.
2) Gentile followers of Christ become spiritual Israelites, by faith.
3) Jewish and Gentile followers of Christ are the Church.

We know from Ephesians 2:11-18, that ethnicity counts for nothing.
And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Acts 2:47
And if you be in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed. Galatians 3:29

At Mt. Sinai, God said Israel was the kingly priesthood, the holy nation, the peculiar people of God. Exodus 19:5-7

Now: Peter claims that the Christians are this very people: You [Christians] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people...Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God. 1 Peter 2:9-10

Also, Israel was known as the circumcision; Ephesians 2:11. For that was their physical mark of distinction. Paul explicitly says that unbelieving Jews were a false circumcision, and states that the Christians are the true circumcision: Beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:2-3

Nothing has been REPLACED.
The first members of the body of Christ were all obedient Israelites. They, and ONLY they, were obedient Israel, and they went out and taught that all the followers of Jesus were the sons of Abraham by their faith.
Those who teach, in contrast, that there is a separate destiny for the Jews and the Church, are teaching in opposition to the Prophets and Apostles.

The "church" is, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, Israel and is Israelite in its origin:
Acts 7:38This is that Moses, who said to the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, [Jesus] that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers
Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Note: that this church exists prior to any gentile inclusion, the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

The real wrong replacement theology is the one that combines the believing remnant Messianic Jews with the unbelieving wicked ones, as all of Jewish Israel who, according to the ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church theory, are the people who remain on earth while they sit up in heaven.
Ref; Parousia

Stan B · Aug 23, 2019

Acolyte said:
So Mary's lineage was not accounted for in the birth of our Lord and Savoir? Read again

Of course Mary's lineage was important in fulfilment of prophecy, but insignificant as to the genealogy and lineage which came from the Holy Spirit, after the order of Melchizidek.

Naomi25 · Aug 24, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
If you are not one of them who believe you will replce the decendents of Israel tyen you are not.Maybe you only believe you are adopted .

Well, it's never quite as cut and dried as that, is it? I would say that I only believe what scripture teaches on the subject...but don't we all?
I suppose the fastest way to the finishing point is to lay out what I see scripture as saying on the subject.
In Genesis, God gives Abraham a promise. An inheritance for his 'children'. Even in the OT we see God's plan to include the Gentiles eventually, as this promise is that "in you shall ALL the nations be blessed".
When we come to the NT, how do we see the Apostles interpreting this particular promise? Paul tells us this:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

We know that even back in the OT not all "Israel" was elect. That many Jews turned from God and worshipped Idols. But even back then God preserved true Israel, the "children of promise", through whom the Christ would come, and the promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. And in the NT, still there was a "remnant" of Jews within the elect:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew...But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. -Romans 11:1-2, 4–5

But what else do we see about this 'elect' group in the NT? Paul tells us:

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

If we are in Christ...no matter our ethnicity, we are Abrahams offspring, heirs of this promise. It is this way that "all nations" are blessed through Abraham.
And it is in this way that those of us accused of "replacement theology" object. We have replaced no one. God's plan stood in eternity past, as it does now. And as Paul tells us in Romans 11, Gentiles have replaced no one, we have only been grafted into the tree of true Israel, joining the true believers of Christ.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

Because...and this is the most crucial thing of all...we must all realise that we are all now under the new covenant. There is no longer Jews...who are under the old, and may find their way to God through some old Abrahamic promise...and then Christians, who are under the new in Christ. There is only the new. If Jewish, Israeli people, no matter their bloodline, do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and the only one true way to the Father, they will not be saved.
And IF we are all under the one covenant, IF we are all joined to the one tree, the true Israel who is Christ, the root who nourishes us all, then there is no replacement, but only one body coming together under the head, who is Christ.

Naomi25 · Aug 24, 2019

farouk said:
I struggle with replacement theology, also. I just don't see the church in the Old Testament, either.

The problem with "replacement theology" is that the only people who use that term, are those who use it incorrectly to accuse others of holding it. Usually, the accusations are pointed at me, as I'm an Amillennialist. These people think that we do a bait and switch. "Aha...see this wonderful chosen people in the OT? Israel? Well, watch my hands, I'm going to wave them in a fancy way and then...ta da! Suddenly in the NT Israel is out and the Church is IN! Too bad so sad Israel! We'll just be taking all those promises and you can slink off and lick your wounds!"

This is not just a misrepresentation of what we believe, but what the bible actually says too. Because let's face it...the Church does come into it, doesn't it? We're not imagining that. And we're also not imagining the fact that there is only one, very clear way to God the Father; Christ.
And yet suddenly we're expected to believe that there are now two separate agenda's for God's two separate peoples? When there's only one way to God, and the NT is quite clear that IN Christ we become one people...Jew AND Gentile together (Gal 3:28). That In Christ we ARE heirs of the promises of Abraham (Gal 3:29). How do they answer that? That surely has to be a little awkward for them to explain? If Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree...the one that "unbelieving Jews" (Rom 11:17-18) are broken off of, and once we are grafted into this 'true spiritual Israel' (Rom 9:6-8) we become spritual Israel, one body of believers in Christ Jesus, heirs of Abrahams promise, and on the path of THE ONLY way to the Father.....what other way can there possibly BE for these "other" Jewish descendants of Abraham????

I don't think the presence (or lack of it) of the Church in the OT impinges at all on this topic. The offering of the gospel, of salvation to the Gentiles, is clearly a new covenant 'mystery'. Paul speaks of it:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. -Romans 11:25

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen. -Romans 16:25–27

We can see foreshadows of the promise of the 'Church' in the OT. Whenever we see a reference to how Israel, or the lineage of Abraham is going to be a "blessing to the Nations", or "all the world will be blessed through you", we can know it was speaking about this. God always intended to reach all tongues, tribes and nations. We can see this in Revelation, which is like a doxology, in a way, showing us what will happen, but also God's glorious plan for heaven, where people of all 'tribes' of the earth, will sing with one voice of his glory.

shilohsfoal · Aug 24, 2019

Naomi25 said:
Well, it's never quite as cut and dried as that, is it? I would say that I only believe what scripture teaches on the subject...but don't we all?
I suppose the fastest way to the finishing point is to lay out what I see scripture as saying on the subject.
In Genesis, God gives Abraham a promise. An inheritance for his 'children'. Even in the OT we see God's plan to include the Gentiles eventually, as this promise is that "in you shall ALL the nations be blessed".
When we come to the NT, how do we see the Apostles interpreting this particular promise? Paul tells us this:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. -Romans 9:6–8

We know that even back in the OT not all "Israel" was elect. That many Jews turned from God and worshipped Idols. But even back then God preserved true Israel, the "children of promise", through whom the Christ would come, and the promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. And in the NT, still there was a "remnant" of Jews within the elect:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew...But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. -Romans 11:1-2, 4–5

But what else do we see about this 'elect' group in the NT? Paul tells us:

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

If we are in Christ...no matter our ethnicity, we are Abrahams offspring, heirs of this promise. It is this way that "all nations" are blessed through Abraham.
And it is in this way that those of us accused of "replacement theology" object. We have replaced no one. God's plan stood in eternity past, as it does now. And as Paul tells us in Romans 11, Gentiles have replaced no one, we have only been grafted into the tree of true Israel, joining the true believers of Christ.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. -Romans 11:17–18

Because...and this is the most crucial thing of all...we must all realise that we are all now under the new covenant. There is no longer Jews...who are under the old, and may find their way to God through some old Abrahamic promise...and then Christians, who are under the new in Christ. There is only the new. If Jewish, Israeli people, no matter their bloodline, do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and the only one true way to the Father, they will not be saved.
And IF we are all under the one covenant, IF we are all joined to the one tree, the true Israel who is Christ, the root who nourishes us all, then there is no replacement, but only one body coming together under the head, who is Christ.

Do all reign with Christ over tye nations in the Lord land or is it those who do not worship the beast or its image and have died for thier testimony of Christ?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Keep in mind what the subject is about.Its not about who recievs an inhetitance.Its about who reigns over the nations in the Lords land.

Has every christian youve ever know been faced with the beast and its image?Have they all rejected the mark of the beast which is used to buy and sell in his kingdom?Have they been killed for thier testimony of Christ?

Not everyone reigns over the nations.Now if you fiqure out who the beast is and who they are who die for thier testimony if Christ,then you will understand what im,talking about.

I will tell you this.Ive recieved the holy spirit and undestand everything youve just said and couldnt agree more.But I am not one if those who lives in the kingdom of the beast.I am not one of those who are killed forthier testimony of Christ, therefore I am,not one of those who will reign over the nations in the Lords land.

I do know who they are that do overcome the beast and will reign with Christ.

farouk · Aug 24, 2019

Naomi25 said:
The problem with "replacement theology" is that the only people who use that term, are those who use it incorrectly to accuse others of holding it. Usually, the accusations are pointed at me, as I'm an Amillennialist. These people think that we do a bait and switch. "Aha...see this wonderful chosen people in the OT? Israel? Well, watch my hands, I'm going to wave them in a fancy way and then...ta da! Suddenly in the NT Israel is out and the Church is IN! Too bad so sad Israel! We'll just be taking all those promises and you can slink off and lick your wounds!"

This is not just a misrepresentation of what we believe, but what the bible actually says too. Because let's face it...the Church does come into it, doesn't it? We're not imagining that. And we're also not imagining the fact that there is only one, very clear way to God the Father; Christ.
And yet suddenly we're expected to believe that there are now two separate agenda's for God's two separate peoples? When there's only one way to God, and the NT is quite clear that IN Christ we become one people...Jew AND Gentile together (Gal 3:28). That In Christ we ARE heirs of the promises of Abraham (Gal 3:29). How do they answer that? That surely has to be a little awkward for them to explain? If Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree...the one that "unbelieving Jews" (Rom 11:17-18) are broken off of, and once we are grafted into this 'true spiritual Israel' (Rom 9:6-8) we become spritual Israel, one body of believers in Christ Jesus, heirs of Abrahams promise, and on the path of THE ONLY way to the Father.....what other way can there possibly BE for these "other" Jewish descendants of Abraham????

I don't think the presence (or lack of it) of the Church in the OT impinges at all on this topic. The offering of the gospel, of salvation to the Gentiles, is clearly a new covenant 'mystery'. Paul speaks of it:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. -Romans 11:25

Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen. -Romans 16:25–27

We can see foreshadows of the promise of the 'Church' in the OT. Whenever we see a reference to how Israel, or the lineage of Abraham is going to be a "blessing to the Nations", or "all the world will be blessed through you", we can know it was speaking about this. God always intended to reach all tongues, tribes and nations. We can see this in Revelation, which is like a doxology, in a way, showing us what will happen, but also God's glorious plan for heaven, where people of all 'tribes' of the earth, will sing with one voice of his glory.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do think that future events seen in the Old Testament are about Israel and the nations, rather than about the church. But I would certainly agree with some of what you say.

Keraz · Aug 24, 2019

farouk said:
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do think that future events seen in the Old Testament are about Israel and the nations, rather than about the church. But I would certainly agree with some of what you say.

But what is hidden from you is the fact of the faithful Christian Church being comprised mainly of actual descendants from the 10 Northern Tribes of the House of Israel. The people Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24 He WAS successful and we Caucasian Christians are the result.
There are many other races grafted into the true Israel of God, including the few Jews who have accepted Jesus.

This amazing Plan of God, where He scattered His originally chosen people among the nations, has come to fruition and you and I are privileged to be alive at this point in time. God has promised great Blessings to His faithful people!

Naomi25 · Aug 25, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
Do all reign with Christ over tye nations in the Lord land or is it those who do not worship the beast or its image and have died for thier testimony of Christ?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Keep in mind what the subject is about.Its not about who recievs an inhetitance.Its about who reigns over the nations in the Lords land.

I think there may be a fundamental difference in how you and I see Revelation 20. I would say that leaving out the rest of that section is a critical error:

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

We see it's not just a passage about who reigns with Christ, but it's about a separation of sorts, just like we see at the "Throne" judgements. One group of people, who have not worshipped the beast, share in the first resurrection. Those who do not share in the first resurrection, will experience the second death. We know from Rev 20:14 that the second death is the lake of fire; the ultimate judgement.
That allows us to make some conclusions about this "first resurrection". We know the final resurrection is our bodily resurrection when Christ returns. So, what is this reference to "coming to life and reigning with Christ" that this "first" resurrection speaks of? The bible actually gives us some clue:

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:5–6

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:13

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. -Romans 6:13–14

For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.-2 Corinthians 4:11

and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortalityto light through the gospel, -2 Timothy 1:10

If Christ's return see the final resurrection of our bodies, it is no stretch, biblically or logically, to think that the first resurrection is what happens when a soul, once dead in trespasses, passes from death to life when they are saved in Christ. The bible teaches that once that happens our lives are, in a very real way, found IN him. And we know from Eph 1:20 that Christ rules and reigns even now, over his Kingdom, which is NOT of this world (John 18:36).

In this sense, every Christian rules and reigns with Christ right now. Every time they proclaim the gospel, announce the Kingdom come in Christ Jesus, they are pronouncing the reality of that rule.

Has every christian youve ever know been faced with the beast and its image?Have they all rejected the mark of the beast which is used to buy and sell in his kingdom?Have they been killed for thier testimony of Christ?

Again, we see this very differently.

Love the Lordyour God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. - Deut 6:5-8

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, -Revelation 14:9

I would say that just as Deut 6 is a clear command to impress upon our thoughts and deeds Gods commands, rather than actually inscribing upon our hands and foreheads, so too is Revelation 14 talking about such loyalty towards the 'beast'. People inevitably choose, with their thoughts and deeds, to honor and obey someone. As humans we are built to worship, that's just how we're made. We all have idols. But we can either take God's mark, and be sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30), or we can choose to follow the "Prince" of this world with our thoughts and deeds, rejecting the one true God and Lord of all.

In that regard, yes, all the Christians I know have, in this regard, faced and rejected the "mark of the beast". And we often experience persecution for our decision to do so. Perhaps not so much here in Western nations, although that is changing. But without a doubt, in many Countries the Christians who have been 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit, who have rejected the Beasts mark, experience persecution even unto death. Thus it has always been and will always be until Christ returns in glory.

Not everyone reigns over the nations.Now if you fiqure out who the beast is and who they are who die for thier testimony if Christ,then you will understand what im,talking about.

I'm afraid I have little time for guessing games. I disagree with a good number of people here who attempt to back up their theories with scripture. Just requiring me to 'guess' who the beast is to figure out what you're talking about will bring a swift end to this discussion. You can either lay out, scripturally, what you believe to be accurate, or not...as you choose.

I will tell you this.Ive recieved the holy spirit and undestand everything youve just said and couldnt agree more.But I am not one if those who lives in the kingdom of the beast.I am not one of those who are killed forthier testimony of Christ, therefore I am,not one of those who will reign over the nations in the Lords land.

I do know who they are that do overcome the beast and will reign with Christ.

If you live on planet earth, do you not live within the kingdom of the beast in a way? The problem of being a Christian within such a place is that we must walk amoung it, but not bow to it. Christ said that HIS Kingdom was not of this world, which means OUR Kingdom is not of this world either. Basically we're missionaries within this world, waiting for the return of our Lord and the time when we can say "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

farouk · Aug 25, 2019

Naomi25 said:
I think there may be a fundamental difference in how you and I see Revelation 20. I would say that leaving out the rest of that section is a critical error:

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

We see it's not just a passage about who reigns with Christ, but it's about a separation of sorts, just like we see at the "Throne" judgements. One group of people, who have not worshipped the beast, share in the first resurrection. Those who do not share in the first resurrection, will experience the second death. We know from Rev 20:14 that the second death is the lake of fire; the ultimate judgement.
That allows us to make some conclusions about this "first resurrection". We know the final resurrection is our bodily resurrection when Christ returns. So, what is this reference to "coming to life and reigning with Christ" that this "first" resurrection speaks of? The bible actually gives us some clue:

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:5–6

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:13

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. -Romans 6:13–14

For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.-2 Corinthians 4:11

and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortalityto light through the gospel, -2 Timothy 1:10

If Christ's return see the final resurrection of our bodies, it is no stretch, biblically or logically, to think that the first resurrection is what happens when a soul, once dead in trespasses, passes from death to life when they are saved in Christ. The bible teaches that once that happens our lives are, in a very real way, found IN him. And we know from Eph 1:20 that Christ rules and reigns even now, over his Kingdom, which is NOT of this world (John 18:36).

In this sense, every Christian rules and reigns with Christ right now. Every time they proclaim the gospel, announce the Kingdom come in Christ Jesus, they are pronouncing the reality of that rule.

Again, we see this very differently.

Love the Lordyour God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. - Deut 6:5-8

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, -Revelation 14:9

I would say that just as Deut 6 is a clear command to impress upon our thoughts and deeds Gods commands, rather than actually inscribing upon our hands and foreheads, so too is Revelation 14 talking about such loyalty towards the 'beast'. People inevitably choose, with their thoughts and deeds, to honor and obey someone. As humans we are built to worship, that's just how we're made. We all have idols. But we can either take God's mark, and be sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30), or we can choose to follow the "Prince" of this world with our thoughts and deeds, rejecting the one true God and Lord of all.

In that regard, yes, all the Christians I know have, in this regard, faced and rejected the "mark of the beast". And we often experience persecution for our decision to do so. Perhaps not so much here in Western nations, although that is changing. But without a doubt, in many Countries the Christians who have been 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit, who have rejected the Beasts mark, experience persecution even unto death. Thus it has always been and will always be until Christ returns in glory.

I'm afraid I have little time for guessing games. I disagree with a good number of people here who attempt to back up their theories with scripture. Just requiring me to 'guess' who the beast is to figure out what you're talking about will bring a swift end to this discussion. You can either lay out, scripturally, what you believe to be accurate, or not...as you choose.

If you live on planet earth, do you not live within the kingdom of the beast in a way? The problem of being a Christian within such a place is that we must walk amoung it, but not bow to it. Christ said that HIS Kingdom was not of this world, which means OUR Kingdom is not of this world either. Basically we're missionaries within this world, waiting for the return of our Lord and the time when we can say "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

It's good indeed to focus on the heavenly place, where the Lamb is all the glory.

Naomi25 · Aug 25, 2019

farouk said:
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do think that future events seen in the Old Testament are about Israel and the nations, rather than about the church. But I would certainly agree with some of what you say.

That was a very carefully worded post, well done! It can be hard to "agree to disagree" sometimes, can't it?! I truly don't mind that you, or others see a future ahead for Israel...in point of fact so do I. I just think its as part of the Church. The Church is, after all, the body of Christ, nothing more or less. And if we believe that the OT was pointing towards Christ, rather than Israel, as the Saviour of the world, then I think it should come as no particular suprise that IN Christ the people of God become on body.
But, it's cool you think differently...this is, after all, an opened handed issue. I suppose we can say that we'll wait with baited breath to see who is right...? May that time come soon!

farouk · Aug 25, 2019

Naomi25 said:
That was a very carefully worded post, well done! It can be hard to "agree to disagree" sometimes, can't it?! I truly don't mind that you, or others see a future ahead for Israel...in point of fact so do I. I just think its as part of the Church. The Church is, after all, the body of Christ, nothing more or less. And if we believe that the OT was pointing towards Christ, rather than Israel, as the Saviour of the world, then I think it should come as no particular suprise that IN Christ the people of God become on body.
But, it's cool you think differently...this is, after all, an opened handed issue. I suppose we can say that we'll wait with baited breath to see who is right...? May that time come soon!

Did you get a PhD in subtle semantics, somewhere Down Under?

(ANU, maybe?)

shilohsfoal · Aug 25, 2019

Naomi25 said:
I think there may be a fundamental difference in how you and I see Revelation 20. I would say that leaving out the rest of that section is a critical error:

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. -Revelation 20:4–6

We see it's not just a passage about who reigns with Christ, but it's about a separation of sorts, just like we see at the "Throne" judgements. One group of people, who have not worshipped the beast, share in the first resurrection. Those who do not share in the first resurrection, will experience the second death. We know from Rev 20:14 that the second death is the lake of fire; the ultimate judgement.
That allows us to make some conclusions about this "first resurrection". We know the final resurrection is our bodily resurrection when Christ returns. So, what is this reference to "coming to life and reigning with Christ" that this "first" resurrection speaks of? The bible actually gives us some clue:

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:5–6

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:13

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. -John 5:24

Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. -Romans 6:13–14

For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.-2 Corinthians 4:11

and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortalityto light through the gospel, -2 Timothy 1:10

If Christ's return see the final resurrection of our bodies, it is no stretch, biblically or logically, to think that the first resurrection is what happens when a soul, once dead in trespasses, passes from death to life when they are saved in Christ. The bible teaches that once that happens our lives are, in a very real way, found IN him. And we know from Eph 1:20 that Christ rules and reigns even now, over his Kingdom, which is NOT of this world (John 18:36).

In this sense, every Christian rules and reigns with Christ right now. Every time they proclaim the gospel, announce the Kingdom come in Christ Jesus, they are pronouncing the reality of that rule.

Again, we see this very differently.

Love the Lordyour God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. - Deut 6:5-8

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, -Revelation 14:9

I would say that just as Deut 6 is a clear command to impress upon our thoughts and deeds Gods commands, rather than actually inscribing upon our hands and foreheads, so too is Revelation 14 talking about such loyalty towards the 'beast'. People inevitably choose, with their thoughts and deeds, to honor and obey someone. As humans we are built to worship, that's just how we're made. We all have idols. But we can either take God's mark, and be sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30), or we can choose to follow the "Prince" of this world with our thoughts and deeds, rejecting the one true God and Lord of all.

In that regard, yes, all the Christians I know have, in this regard, faced and rejected the "mark of the beast". And we often experience persecution for our decision to do so. Perhaps not so much here in Western nations, although that is changing. But without a doubt, in many Countries the Christians who have been 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit, who have rejected the Beasts mark, experience persecution even unto death. Thus it has always been and will always be until Christ returns in glory.

I'm afraid I have little time for guessing games. I disagree with a good number of people here who attempt to back up their theories with scripture. Just requiring me to 'guess' who the beast is to figure out what you're talking about will bring a swift end to this discussion. You can either lay out, scripturally, what you believe to be accurate, or not...as you choose.

If you live on planet earth, do you not live within the kingdom of the beast in a way? The problem of being a Christian within such a place is that we must walk amoung it, but not bow to it. Christ said that HIS Kingdom was not of this world, which means OUR Kingdom is not of this world either. Basically we're missionaries within this world, waiting for the return of our Lord and the time when we can say "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

Do you believe you were beheaded for your testimony of Christ?
Do you believe you rejected the mark,of the beast which is used for buying and selling?

Revelation 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark--the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Id like to see how im fundamentsling missing how you didnt tecieve the mark,of the beast by the srcond beast which will be used for buying and selling.

Reggie Belafonte · Aug 25, 2019

Davy the Kingdom of God is literal now, it has been for 2000 years but it will come into it's glory in the future, called the second coming. it's the same thing only that all will be born again then. to reject such is Ant-Christ in fact and you are condemning all Christians who ever lived including Jesus Christ.
This new age 2ed coming rubbish and idolising so called Jews nowadays is insane the OT is finished with and the only people worthy of God are truly born again Christians that only look to him only, not some Anti-Christ so called moron claiming to be a Jew, as what the hell would they know.

I agree with what you are saying from the point on that you say, There will not be any WW3. but a war is on going regardless.
Look at it this way in the Ukraine their was no war, but only something from only 10 to 20 million people who only starved to death

and sure the majority of the world does not care about such things, I know that's how it can go, I can point to many more if you want.
The majority of people just do not know, do they truly care, I don't think so really, they are more interested in there little tiny squabbles that are truly nothing, maybe it's just that such reality's are to much for them to handle so they hide from such things, out of sight out of mind ? or if it's not bothering you why bother type of mentality, until it comes on to you then you are RS because you don't have a hope to deal with such because of such ignorance, maybe you can hide and leave it to others and then if you survive you can boast about it.

Reggie Belafonte · Aug 25, 2019

Naomi25 said:
That was a very carefully worded post, well done! It can be hard to "agree to disagree" sometimes, can't it?! I truly don't mind that you, or others see a future ahead for Israel...in point of fact so do I. I just think its as part of the Church. The Church is, after all, the body of Christ, nothing more or less. And if we believe that the OT was pointing towards Christ, rather than Israel, as the Saviour of the world, then I think it should come as no particular suprise that IN Christ the people of God become on body.
But, it's cool you think differently...this is, after all, an opened handed issue. I suppose we can say that we'll wait with baited breath to see who is right...? May that time come soon!

The Jews are not part of the Church at all, how can they be when such reject Jesus as the Christ. such is a Anti-Christ in fact.

I hear idiots calling the Jews our big brothers, no fact is they are like Cain, as Jesus said that they were of there Father of lies and were murders from the beginning.
Who killed Jesus ? the head of the Jews demanded it and the rest followed along with it like dogs but for a few who knew he was the Christ because they were true to God and were true Israelites, the rest were not worthy to be Israelites at all. so you only had a hand full of people who were worthy of Christ Jesus and it was they who were the first Christians. the rest missed the bus and were lost to Satans power

Davy · Aug 26, 2019

Reggie Belafonte said:
The Jews are not part of the Church at all, how can they be when such reject Jesus as the Christ. such is a Anti-Christ in fact.

I hear idiots calling the Jews our big brothers, no fact is they are like Cain, as Jesus said that they were of there Father of lies and were murders from the beginning.
Who killed Jesus ? the head of the Jews demanded it and the rest followed along with it like dogs but for a few who knew he was the Christ because they were true to God and were true Israelites, the rest were not worthy to be Israelites at all. so you only had a hand full of people who were worthy of Christ Jesus and it was they who were the first Christians. the rest missed the bus and were lost to Satans power

Hold on, not all Jews are false Jews. The title of Jew began with those of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity (per Jewish historian Josephus). Josephus said the title originated from the tribe of Judah.

So there really are a people that call themselves Jews which are descendants of the old "house of Judah", i.e., the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. These are not the 'false Jews' our Lord Jesus pointed to in Rev.2:9 and 3:9.

Keraz · Aug 26, 2019

Davy said:
Hold on, not all Jews are false Jews. The title of Jew began with those of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity (per Jewish historian Josephus). Josephus said the title originated from the tribe of Judah.

So there really are a people that call themselves Jews which are descendants of the old "house of Judah", i.e., the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. These are not the 'false Jews' our Lord Jesus pointed to in Rev.2:9 and 3:9.

They call themselves Jews, but are not; they are of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 3:9,
A real Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart..... Romans 2:29
Only a remnant of them [the Jews] will survive. Romans 9:27

Last count was 15,000 out of 5-6 million citizens of the State of Israel were Christian and many of them are Arabs.
It is the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes who will obtain the birthright of possession of all the holy Land. Isaiah 65:9

Davy · Aug 26, 2019

Keraz said:
They call themselves Jews, but are not; they are of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 3:9,
A real Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart..... Romans 2:29
Only a remnant of them [the Jews] will survive. Romans 9:27

Last count was 15,000 out of 5-6 million citizens of the State of Israel were Christian and many of them are Arabs.
It is the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes who will obtain the birthright of possession of all the holy Land. Isaiah 65:9

No matter how much one hates the false Jews for trying to usurp Christ's Kingdom and blessings to the house of Israel, there still is a group of descendants from the true bloodline tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Apostle Paul himself was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin. He was a Jew because the tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

The majority of the house of Judah remained in Babylon after the 70 years captivity. It was God promised to take care of them there, and that they would increase while in captivity there. So many of them stayed. Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem. The majority of the house of Judah remained, and they like the ten tribes were also scattered among the Gentiles. A lot of them scattered to the west converted to Christianity.

As for Apostle Paul's usage of the word Judaean (i.e, Jew), in his day, the people from the original house of Judah were the only ones of Israel left, for the ten tribes had already been scattered and lost to the world by then. Romans 2:29 usage of the word for a Judaean in the spiritual sense is really a pointer to the concept of God's spiritual Israel.

Keraz · Aug 26, 2019

Keraz said:
Last count was 15,000 out of 5-6 million citizens of the State of Israel were Christian and many of them are Arabs.
It is the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes who will obtain the birthright of possession of all the holy Land. Isaiah 65:9

They will, of course, be joined by the Christian Jewish remnant. Jeremiah 50:4-5 Plus many foreigners also grafted in.
God knows who the actual descendants of the ancient Israelites are, Amos 9:9, and we do too; they are the Christian peoples.
We Christians will all migrate to and live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, as the Lord always wanted, but has never yet had.

Isaiah 60:1-7 Arise! Shine, Jerusalem, for your light has come – over you the glory of the Lord has dawned. Though darkness covers the earth, on you the Lord shines. Over you His glory will appear. Nations and kings will come to your light. Look – your sons and daughters are coming from afar, all assembling in the Land. You will rejoice at the sight. The wealth of nations will be yours. Droves of camels laden with treasure will come and flocks of sheep will cover the Land, acceptable offerings for My altar and to enhance the splendor of My Temple.

Isaiah 60:8-11 Who are these that sail along like clouds? They are vessels assembling from the coasts and islands bringing your children from far away, their treasures with them, for the honour of the Holy One of Israel. In My wrath, I struck you down, now in My favour I show you pity. Foreigners and kings will work for you.

Isaiah 60:12-18 For the nation that refuses to serve you will perish, there will be widespread devastation among such nations. The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, to adorn My holy sanctuary. All who reviled you shall pay you homage, calling Jerusalem “The City of the Lord”. I shall give My Land and people everlasting renown. You will receive the best gifts from kings and the nations. Then you will acknowledge that your Redeemer is the Mighty One of Israel. For copper you shall have gold, for iron, silver. You will live in peace and righteousness will rule over you. No more will havoc and ruin be within your borders. Your walls will be deliverance and your gates, praise.

Isaiah 60:19-22 The sun and moon will no longer be your light, for the Lord will be your everlasting light. Your days of mourning will be ended. The Lords people, all of them righteous, will possess the Land forever. They are My own planting, the work of My hands for My adornment. The few will become a great nation.

At the appointed time, I, the Lord, will bring this swiftly to pass. Habakkuk 2:3
Ref. REB. Some verses abridged.

This prophecy of Isaiah, speaks of the time, soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, when every faithful Christian will gather into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10

‘darkness covers the earth’, It may be months before the smoke and ash from the ‘widespread devastation’ of the direct hit by a massive CME sunstrike clears. Zephaniah 2:4-5, Jeremiah 4:23-28, Joel 1:15-20

‘The Lord’s people, all of them righteous, assembling from the coasts and islands’, Ezekiel 20:34. Every born again Christian, all who stood firm in their faith, Luke 21:34-36, will travel on every type of transport to the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107

‘Over you, His Glory will appear’, His Glory, not his presence. ‘Then you will acknowledge your Redeemer’. The Return of Jesus to reign for the Millennium is to come later.

‘The wealth of nations will be yours’, This was done before; at the first Exodus, the Israelites took treasure from the Egyptians. Exodus 11:2

‘The splendor of My Temple’, One of the first projects of the new inhabitants of Beulah, will be to build the third Temple. The temple mount will have been cleared and cleansed by the fires and earthquakes of this CME.

Isaiah 60:19, refers to the time after the Millennium. Revelation 21:23-24

Reggie Belafonte · Aug 26, 2019

Davy said:
No matter how much one hates the false Jews for trying to usurp Christ's Kingdom and blessings to the house of Israel, there still is a group of descendants from the true bloodline tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Apostle Paul himself was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin. He was a Jew because the tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem-Judea when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

The majority of the house of Judah remained in Babylon after the 70 years captivity. It was God promised to take care of them there, and that they would increase while in captivity there. So many of them stayed. Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem. The majority of the house of Judah remained, and they like the ten tribes were also scattered among the Gentiles. A lot of them scattered to the west converted to Christianity.

As for Apostle Paul's usage of the word Judaean (i.e, Jew), in his day, the people from the original house of Judah were the only ones of Israel left, for the ten tribes had already been scattered and lost to the world by then. Romans 2:29 usage of the word for a Judaean in the spiritual sense is really a pointer to the concept of God's spiritual Israel.

It's not about hate or hatred of the Jews at all, it's about the reality that all who oppose Jesus Christ are not worthy at all, fact is that such never were and never will be worthy.

Only truly born again people regardless of race are the Servants of God and anyone who claims otherwise is an Anti-Christ, such people do not cut it and they can not enter into the Kingdom of God, let alone get to Heaven. lets establish the facts now. if anyone claims otherwise they are of Satan.
I did not make the rules God did and I only serve Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Saviour and I do not serve Mans works or any Kike claiming to be a so called Jew making out that all must idolise them, because fact is that such people even if they were to be the people 2000 years ago does not count for jack. fact is it was only a few who truly served God in the OT like the Prophets for crying out loud as the majority were lost. why did God send the Prophets ?

because they were hopeless and they knew it for a fact and that's why they look to the Prophets in fact but a bastard mob undermined them every step of the way trying to lead them astray, why do you think that they were so eager to kill the Prophets ? and then the bastards demanded Jesus be killed.
Not to mention who were the Golden Calf mob hey !! Yes they tried to kill Holy Moses. just as Jesus said of them who that they were, they were from their Father of lies and they were murders from the beginning. yep bastards as to God. and that's what all people are until they know Jesus is their Lord and Saviour and only him shall you Serve.

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