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atpollard

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In your religion would you condemn to hell a young girl who honoured her Hindu parents (as God commands she ought to) and then dies before a Western preacher can reach her remote village so as to even hear about Jesus?

Just one case in a million.

At what precise age does a person burn in hell who dies before coming to the same conclusion as someone who has lived much longer and seen much more?
At what age does a person obey the Law that leads to righteousness without needing to place their trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ to cover their failure to fully live up to the standards of a Holy God?
  • [Matthew 22:37-40 NLT] 37 Jesus replied, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."
  • [Psalms 51:2-12 NLT] 2 Wash me clean from my guilt. Purify me from my sin. 3 For I recognize my rebellion; it haunts me day and night. 4 Against you, and you alone, have I sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight. You will be proved right in what you say, and your judgment against me is just. 5 For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. 6 But you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there. 7 Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Oh, give me back my joy again; you have broken me--now let me rejoice. 9 Don't keep looking at my sins. Remove the stain of my guilt. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a loyal spirit within me. 11 Do not banish me from your presence, and don't take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and make me willing to obey you.
  • [Romans 1:18-32 NLT] 18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
  • [Romans 2:12, 29 NLT] 12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. ... 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
  • [Romans 3:9-20 NLT] 9 Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. 11 No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." 13 "Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies." "Snake venom drips from their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "They rush to commit murder. 16 Destruction and misery always follow them. 17 They don't know where to find peace." 18 "They have no fear of God at all." 19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 NLT] 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
I read in scripture, all mankind sins because the desire to sin is in our nature (just as it was in the nature of our father, Adam) and we stand guilty and condemned and dead in sin and enemies of God based on our actions undertaken by following our nature. I read of no path to God that does not involve “believing” in Jesus Christ and the gift of rebirth that comes from God through His Holy Spirit.

It is not my place to pass judgement on the servant of another, but it is God’s place to choose the sheep that He has drawn to Jesus and it is Jesus place to pronounce “I never knew you” to those that He never knew. It is dangerous to teach that all paths lead to God and worshiping Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva is the same as worshiping YHWH and Jesus Christ. I do not see in God’s word where that is taught by God Himself and I see many places where that teaching appears to be contradicted.
 
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marks

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We will all be judged by our works...not our beliefs. We will be judged by what we have been given. But the religious will never admit that. These seek a belief system for advantage and personal justification leading to security for themselves. But that is a trap.

Your words are incomplete and therefore misleading.

You condemn what you call a "belief system" yet what we receive from God we receive through faith.

We will all be judged according to our works, just the same, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Yes, it is true, we will not be judged for our beliefs. But if you claim what the Bible says, the Bible says that if you've not been reborn, you have no part in God's kingdom, and will share the fate of the devil and his angels.

And the Bible says that rebirth is in Christ alone. There is only One Name given under heaven by which man must be saved.

Through faith - believing - we are born from above, spirit children of our heavenly Father, and that never changes.

Much love in the truth!
 

marks

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"Much is given... much is required"

"according to your faith..."

This is why the final judgment against anyone never belongs to us. There is too much that we do not know!
We need to focus on the things we can know. And there is very much if we are willing to read and accept the validity of what we read.

Much love!
 

amadeus

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We need to focus on the things we can know. And there is very much if we are willing to read and accept the validity of what we read.

Much love!
Did you disagree with something in the post you quoted?

"Much is given... much is required"

"according to your faith..."

This is why the final judgment against anyone never belongs to us. There is too much that we do not know!
But shouldn't we focus where Jesus told us to focus?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 

marks

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Did you disagree with something in the post you quoted?


But shouldn't we focus where Jesus told us to focus?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

Merely that you had commented "there is too much we don't know". I think a better perspective is that there is so very much we can know.

When you ask me, "But shouldn't we focus where Jesus told us to focus?" are you meaning I've said something different? That's how it sounds.

But unless we are willing to yield ourselves to whatever it is the Bible teaches, well, how do you know that what you've found is the kingdom?

much love!
 

amadeus

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Merely that you had commented "there is too much we don't know". I think a better perspective is that there is so very much we can know.
Certainly there is very much that we can know, but we should withhold final judgment until we do know. My point is that final judgment belongs to God belong only He already knows everything about everyone.

When you ask me, "But shouldn't we focus where Jesus told us to focus?" are you meaning I've said something different? That's how it sounds.
You brought up the question to me, I believe. I was simply responding trying to convey my viewpoint. You suggested what to me appeared to be a different focus: "on the things we can know". This is vague because we do not always know what things of God we really can know and it does differ from person to person dependent on the need according to God. We can only know the things to which He leads us and makes clear to us. I was trying to be more specific by quoting Jesus' words.

But unless we are willing to yield ourselves to whatever it is the Bible teaches, well, how do you know that what you've found is the kingdom?

much love!
You should rethink those words, "whatever the Bible teaches" because really, the Bible does not teach. People who read the Bible are led either by the Holy Spirit or by something else. Many, or even most [all at times?], are led by a combination of the two and so they come up with different beliefs or conclusions. It is the "something else" part that gets us into conflict because of the different results.
 

marks

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Certainly there is very much that we can know, but we should withhold final judgment until we do know. My point is that final judgment belongs to God belong only He already knows everything about everyone.


You brought up the question to me, I believe. I was simply responding trying to convey my viewpoint. You suggested what to me appeared to a different focus: "on the things we can know". This is vague because we do not always know what things of God we really can know and it does differ from person to person dependent on the need according to God. We can only know the things to which He leads us and makes clear to us. I was trying to be more specific by quoting Jesus' words.


You should rethink those words, "whatever the Bible teaches" because really, the Bible does not teach. People who read the Bible are led either by the Holy Spirit or by something else. Many, or even most [all at times?], are led by a combination of the two and so they come up with different beliefs or conclusions. It is the "something else" part that gets us into conflict because of the different results.
Many disregard the plain teaching of the Word in favor of their own brand of righteousness.

Of course the Holy Spirit is Who reveals the Word of God to us.

Much love!
 

amadeus

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Many disregard the plain teaching of the Word in favor of their own brand of righteousness.
I am not certain that this "plain teaching" really exists in a positive sense. It like saying that something is only "common sense" and expect people to believe that therefore it must be correct. What is common sense to one person may indeed be nonsense to another. Same thing with plain teaching.

Of course the Holy Spirit is Who reveals the Word of God to us.
I agree with this.
 

marks

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I am not certain that this "plain teaching" really exists in a positive sense. It like saying that something is only "common sense" and expect people to believe that therefore it must be correct. What is common sense to one person may indeed be nonsense to another. Same thing with plain teaching.


I agree with this.
Well, I would say that plain teaching is this:

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And this:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And this:

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

No, I would not say "Plain teaching in the Bible" is like saying "common sense". Common sense is what it means to each of us, it is subjective, but the Bible teaches an objective truth.

Although many seem to have talked themselves into not knowing anything. Not saying that's you, just that I see it sometimes.

Much love!
 

amadeus

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Well, I would say that plain teaching is this:

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And this:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

And this:

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

No, I would not say "Plain teaching in the Bible" is like saying "common sense". Common sense is what it means to each of us, it is subjective, but the Bible teaches an objective truth.

Although many seem to have talked themselves into not knowing anything. Not saying that's you, just that I see it sometimes.

Much love!
Plain teaching that every reader understands precisely the same or parables which are misunderstood?

I read each of the three verses you quoted and know that on this forum there are people with different understandings of each one of them. You also know this is so if you have read many of the available threads here on this forum.

On those three verses you quoted, if I were to explain in detail what I believe about each one of them I am almost certain you would disagree with me at least in part. [I won't do that on this thread.] This doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa. It simply confirms what I already said about "plain teaching"

I agree that there is an objective truth contained in the Bible, but it is not so taught or understood by any man I know... including and especially me. God has absolute truths, but who knows what they are in every case? Some people say they know some [all?] of them but I would not be surprised to find they are wrong.
 
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marks

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I agree that there is an objective truth contained in the Bible, but it is not so taught or understood by any man I know... including and especially me.

That's sad!

Because something else Jesus said, " . . . and the truth shall set you free."

Much love!
 

amadeus

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That's sad!

Because something else Jesus said, " . . . and the truth shall set you free."

Much love!
He did indeed! Is it not possible to know a man without knowing every thing that is in that man? Jesus is the Truth. Is it not also possible, or even likely, that none of us who know Him, know everything that He is or that is in Him?

We are to love the Truth and we are to continue seeking God and His righteousness while living by faith, which is "...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
 
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Mjh29

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He has sent grace into the world...for all men.

Depends on what grace you are talking about. There is common grace, which yes is given to all men. But there is also a special grace, which the Lord reserves for His chosen people only.

~ 1 Peter 2:9
~ Ephesians 1:4
~ Romans 8:28
~ 1 Timothy 2:4
~ John 6:44
~ 2 Timothy 1:9
~ John 6:37
~ Titus 1:2

Our decision is whether we wish to cooperate with God or not. No acceptance of His grace is required. It is already done. All we can do is reject it.

I agree. Without God's effectual work in the heart of man, man is only able in and of himself to reject God.

1.) Man, in his natural state, HATES God. Left in our natural state to "choose", we will only ever choose sin, because of our natural hate for God.

~ Jeremiah 17:9
~ Titus 1:15-16
~ Ecclesiastes 9:3
~ Romans 1:28-31
~ Ephesians 4:17-18
~ Jeremiah 10:7-8
~ Matthew 15:19
~ Genesis 6:5

Natural Man is BORN hating God
~ Psalm 51:5
~ Genesis 8:21
~ Psalm 58:3
~ John 3:6

Men left in their natural state do not seek God
~ John 3:20
~ Romans 8:7-8
~ Colossians 1:21


2.) Man in and of himself cannot choose to serve Christ... he is already enslaved to another master; SIN

~ John 8:34
~ 2 Peter 2:19
~ Titus 3:3
~ Galatians 4:8-9
~ Romans 6:6
~ Romans 6:16-20
~ Romans 7:14
~ 2 Timothy 2:25-26

3.) Natural man does not have the ability to "choose" God; He does not even have the ability to understand the Scriptures!

~ 1 Corinthians 2:14
~ 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
~ 1 Corinthians 1:18-24
~ Deuteronomy 29:2-4
~ Matthew 11:27

4.) Even if man could understand, He still does not have the ability to believe.

~ John 3:27
~ John 14:16-17
~ John 1:12-13
~ John 6:44
~ John 6:65
~ Romans 9:16
~ Romans 11:35-36
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Philippians 2:13

5.) Faith is not of Man; it does not come from him, it comes from God

~ Acts 16:14
~ 1 Corinthians 3:6
~ Acts 5:31
~ Acts 11:18
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Acts 18:27
~ Ephesians 2:8-9
~ Romans 12:3
~ 2 Timothy 2:24-25
~ 1 Corinthians 12:3
~ 2 Peter 1:3
~ Romans 11:36
~ 1 Corinthians 4:7
~ John 3:6
~ John 6:63


Salvation is not about choosing. It is not about cooperating and it is not about man's ability. It is about God's sovereign love which He places on His people by grace; and this grace is given only to those who come to believe.
 
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JPPT1974

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God loved us before we loved Him. And that He wants us to accept Salvation that comes with grace, mercy, and redemption!