Understanding Romans 6 is critically important

Zachary said:

We're talking about the initial salvation experience!
Is one obeying the call?
Or is one accepting the invitation?
.

Click to expand...

Yes, it takes obedience to become initially saved, for again, as long as one continues to disobey he continues to serve 'sin unto death'. John says whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God (1 John 3:10). Therefore the only solution to disobedience - to serving sin - to not being of God is............obedience to the will of God.

"Obeying" and "accepting" are the same thing. How can one claim he has "accepted" the gospel yet he has "not obeyed" the gospel? As long as one continues to disobey the gospel he continues to reject the gospel. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those who "obey not" the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Yes, Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he was a righteous man, blameless in his generations and he walked with God (Genesis 6:9) that obediently did all the Lord commanded him (Genesis 6:22).

Click to expand...

I wold contend that he was a righteous man, walked with God, and obediently did all that the Lord commanded him, because of the grace of God; not in order to obtain it.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Yet this righteous, blameless man who walked with God, his house would not have been saved by God's grace had Noah disobeyed God in refusing to build the ark. It took obedience on Noah's part for his house to graciously be saved. And that obedient work earned him NOHTING. The obedient work in building the ark was a necessary condition God put upon His grace. Therefore it is a false argument, a strawman argument for anyone to claim that obedience is an attempt to earn or merit the grace of God.

Click to expand...

Yet, Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD before he built the ark. He obeyed because of that grace.

Now I see your point that is underlined. Nevertheless, I would argue that there are those who do attempt to earn their salvation in order to earn or merit God's grace. Of course this is not always the reason for obedience. For the born again believer, we obey because He has shed abroad His love in our heart, and we obey out of gratitude over what He did for us. I believe that Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, and Luke 7:36-50 bear this out.

Ernest T. Bass said:

I have never argued that doing good works will saved anyone. I have said over and over it takes an obedient faith in doing the will of God to be saved.

Click to expand...

Then we are on the same page. It is not the obedience that saves but an obedient faith.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Yes, it takes obedience to become initially saved,

Click to expand...

Actually, it takes repentance; and there is a difference. We are not saved through any obedient act of our own. We are not regenerated by works of righteousness which we have done. However, we are saved when we change our attitude from one of disobedience to an attitude of obedience. This is the repent in Acts 2:38; which must come before being baptized in order to receive the promised Holy Ghost. Repentance and faith save (justify) a man; while baptism in Jesus' Name will regenerate him (i.e. he will be filled with the Holy Ghost) if he didn't already obtain it by asking (see Luke 11:9-13).

Zachary said:

Thou art continuing to get INITIAL salvation all mixed up with LATER.
Does one INITIALLY believe by obeying the gospel?

Click to expand...

Salvation is impossible without obeying the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Zachary said:

Or does one INITIALLY believe by accepting the gospel invitation?
(IMO, God has to give one the necessary faith to believe.)
Ernie, you have arrived at the Last Chance Saloon ... Enjoy!

As for others on Christian forums in general ...
I'm quite amused at those who never use IMO in their proclamations!
.

Click to expand...

Again, 'obeying' and 'accepting' would be the same thing. No one can rightly claim that have accepted the gospel if they have not obeyed the gospel. One is rejecting the gospel until they obey it.

Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not something God gives to ma apart from the word, apart from man hearing the word.

justbyfaith said:

I wold contend that he was a righteous man, walked with God, and obediently did all that the Lord commanded him, because of the grace of God; not in order to obtain it.

Click to expand...

Can you then show me one example of a rebellious disobedient person who found grace in the eyes of God while remain rebellious and disobedient to God's will?

justbyfaith said:

Yet, Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD before he built the ark. He obeyed because of that grace.

Click to expand...

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

THe saving of Noah's house was by grace. There he prepared the ark unto the saving of his house, that is, he was obedient unto, in order to obtain God's grace. He did not build the ark because his house was already saved from a flood that had not occurred.

His obedience therefore was required to obtain grace (obtain the saving of his house)

justbyfaith said:

Now I see your point that is underlined. Nevertheless, I would argue that there are those who do attempt to earn their salvation in order to earn or merit God's grace. Of course this is not always the reason for obedience. For the born again believer, we obey because He has shed abroad His love in our heart, and we obey out of gratitude over what He did for us. I believe that Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:19, and Luke 7:36-50 bear this out.

Click to expand...

Obedience to God's will earns nothing but is a necessary condition GOD has placed upon HIS free gift of salvation.

Until some people learn the difference between (1) working to earn some thing and (2) meeting the condition(s) upon a free gift they cannot understand salvation as taught in the Bible.

justbyfaith said:

Then we are on the same page. It is not the obedience that saves but an obedient faith.

Click to expand...

obedience and obedient faith is the same thing.

justbyfaith said:

Actually, it takes repentance; and there is a difference. We are not saved through any obedient act of our own. We are not regenerated by works of righteousness which we have done. However, we are saved when we change our attitude from one of disobedience to an attitude of obedience. This is the repent in Acts 2:38; which must come before being baptized in order to receive the promised Holy Ghost. Repentance and faith save (justify) a man; while baptism in Jesus' Name will regenerate him (i.e. he will be filled with the Holy Ghost) if he didn't already obtain it by asking (see Luke 11:9-13).

Click to expand...

Romans 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" obedience leads one to being righteousness. It does NOT say 'obedience because one is already righteous'.

It is not possible that disobedience leads one to being righteous for wrong doing will never lead one to right doing (righteous).

I have never argued we are saved by our OWN works of righteous (Titus 3:5) but we are saved by doing GOD'S righteousness.

In Acts of the Apostles 2:38 BOTH repentance AND baptism come BEFORE 'remission of sins'. The purpose of baptism is remission of sins. No verse teaches repentance by itself remits the sins of the sinner.

The word habitual keeps cropping up. Yet I don't see that word used in scripture anywhere connected with sin. How much sin forms a habit? Three times a day? Once a day? What about once a month? Is that a habit? Or is just one sin once in a while okay? Is theft once a month acceptable?

Zachary said:

some babes in Christ are not ready to hear some of his unpopular truths.

Click to expand...

Nowadays it's the church leaders that don't want to hear unpopular truth. As such few babes even get to hear about the victory that is IN Christ. So then the truth sounds foreign to them. There is an entire culture of this lack in the modern church.

Just start talking about the power of Christ over sin in they who abide in Him...

Zachary said:

Romans 11:6
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

This refers to WORKS ONLY ...
which everyone (except BACs), and all religions, have always believed in!

Like I asked before ... Who are you anyway?
.

Click to expand...

The last phrase of Rom.11:6 is not in the Greek manuscripts. The KJV translators added it; no doubt for clarification, they thought.

Rom 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
KJV

Scrap that last sentence, it's not in the manuscripts. So you really can't use that as an example for works-salvation, even though it's true that our Faith is shown by our works. God's grace is still a separate thing from works.


The Romans 11:6 subject was about an elect which Paul said God had preserved...

Rom 11:4-6
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
KJV

God's election wasn't by any works they did. It was by His grace, a free gift they did not merit.

Zachary said:

I guess the Last Chance Saloon is open a tad bit longer!

Your 2 Thessalonians 1:8 refers to LATER, not @ the INITIAL point of being saved.
FYI ... obeying the Gospel is MM (mucho more) than merely believing!

The Last Chance Saloon is now officially closed.
.

Click to expand...

2 Thessalonians 1:8 shows one is lost unless, until he does obey the gospel of Christ.

Obeying the gospel is not just mere belief and nothing more.

---2 Thess 1:8 those who do not obey the gospel will be in flaming fire.
---what is the gospel that one must obey then?
---1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul said the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
---in Romans 6:2-7 when one is baptized the old man of sin dies, one is buried in a watery grave and one is raised up from (resurrected) from that watery grave. So there is a connection between Christ's death burial and resurrection and the death burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized. The death, burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism is therefore a 'form' of the gospel, a 'form' of Christ's death burial and resurrection. Those Romans obeyed from the heart that "form of doctrine" Romans 6:17-18. Water baptism therefore is obeying the gospel. There is no death burial and resurrection in Luther's 'faith only' nor in saying a 'sinner's prayer' therefore these things are not the gospel and do not save. Only in water baptism there is a form of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Zachary said:

It seems you're talking about 2 different things!
The red is all they talk about (re: OSAS).
The blue is never talked about.
.

Click to expand...

But when you get to Romans 7, we discover how difficult it is to overcome the sins of the flesh, and shows that even no matter how hard we try at times, we still catch ourselves in a sin sometimes. Apostle Paul creates a dilemma situation with that, and then shows why we still need to repent to Jesus for future slip ups we may commit.

Then in Romans 8, Paul clearly shows the difference between walking in The Spirit vs. walking by our flesh. He even shows that IF... the believer lives after the flesh, they will die (eternally)...

Rom 8:13-14
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
KJV

That is definitely an example against OSAS doctrines of men.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Can you then show me one example of a rebellious disobedient person who found grace in the eyes of God while remain rebellious and disobedient to God's will?

Click to expand...

While I probably could show you examples in the word of people who were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb in the Old Testament but nevertheless did not live perfect lives (e.g. King David), I prefer not to do that because it is my intention to preach holiness more than extravagant grace (which is also a reality in the holy scriptures).

Ernest T. Bass said:

that is, he was obedient unto, in order to obtain God's grace.

Click to expand...

He obtained God's grace before he built the ark. Read it in Genesis.

Ernest T. Bass said:

He did not build the ark because his house was already saved from a flood that had not occurred.

Click to expand...

Nevertheless he already had the grace of the Lord before he built the ark.

Ernest T. Bass said:

obedience and obedient faith is the same thing.

Click to expand...

No; they are slightly different. Obedience results out of an obedient faith. A person can have obedience without faith...that would be dead works...Hebrews 6:1.

Ernest T. Bass said:

but we are saved by doing GOD'S righteousness.

Click to expand...

Only if you count God's righteousness as being faith in Jesus Christ alone. If you count God's righteousness as the things that you might do because of that faith, know that those obedient works do not save you. But it is the faith that produces them that truly saves.

Davy said:

Scrap that last sentence, it's not in the manuscripts.

Click to expand...

The translators of the kjv relied on the Lord in order to produce their translation; very much asking Him to control the process of translation. Later translations did not have this type of prayer involved; they were attempting to complete an agenda. I believe I heard that one translation even had a lesbian on its translation team.

But I personally believe that the kjv is the result of God's exact involvement; and since we no longer have access to the original manuscripts, there is no telling as to whether the sentence that you want to scrap is in the original manuscripts, although it may not be in the copies that we have with us today. I believe that trust in the sovereignty, love, and Omnipotence of the Lord, and His involvement in the creation of the kjv, is an important tenet of a living faith in the true Jesus Christ; since other translations indeed preach a different Jesus than the Jesus that is shown forth in the King James Version of the Bible. And since the kjv was first, that might mean that aberrations in teaching by these newer translations do indeed preach another Jesus, as was spoken of in 2 Corinthians 111:3-4.

I hold the kjv to be inerrant and inspired, by faith. My faith is the substance of and the evidence of something in particular (Hebrews 11:1); basically the thing that I am believing in.

justbyfaith said:

While I probably could show you examples in the word of people who were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb in the Old Testament but nevertheless did not live perfect lives (e.g. King David), I prefer not to do that because it is my intention to preach holiness more than extravagant grace (which is also a reality in the holy scriptures).

Click to expand...

There is no such person in the Bible who found grace in the eyes of God while remaining rebellious and disobedient to God. There were those who sinned as David, but he obediently repented and God forgave him.

justbyfaith said:

He obtained God's grace before he built the ark. Read it in Genesis.



Nevertheless he already had the grace of the Lord before he built the ark.

Click to expand...

The issue you are avoiding was that his house would not have been saved by grace from the flood had Noah not obediently built the ark. His obedience was first necessary before his house could be saved by grace.

He built the ark UNTO the saving of his house not because his house was already saved.

justbyfaith said:

No; they are slightly different. Obedience results out of an obedient faith. A person can have obedience without faith...that would be dead works...Hebrews 6:1.

Click to expand...

Faith is obedience.
Romans 10:9--------believes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Romans 6:16--------obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

Since there is just one way to be saved then belief is obedience. John 3:36 (ASV) belief is obedience

justbyfaith said:

Only if you count God's righteousness as being faith in Jesus Christ alone. If you count God's righteousness as the things that you might do because of that faith, know that those obedient works do not save you. But it is the faith that produces them that truly saves.

Click to expand...

Psalms 119:172 all God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore obeying God's commands is doing God's righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Those Jews were lost for they were doing their OWN righteousness and not doing GOD'S righteousness.

Ernest T. Bass said:

The issue you are avoiding was that his house would not have been saved by grace from the flood had Noah not obediently built the ark. His obedience was first necessary before his house could be saved by grace.

He built the ark UNTO the saving of his house not because his house was already saved.

Click to expand...

Noah built the ark, even was able to build the ark, because of the grace of the Lord. A definition of grace is that it is the enabling power of the Lord, even Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because of his faith. He built the ark not in order to obtain more grace, but rather because of the grace that was already given him.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Psalms 119:172 all God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore obeying God's commands is doing God's righteousness.

Click to expand...

See Philippians 3:9. There is a righteousness which is of the law, and there is a righteousness which is of God by faith.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Those Jews were lost for they were doing their OWN righteousness and not doing GOD'S righteousness.

Click to expand...

God's righteousness amounts to believing on Him...John 6:28-29, Romans 4:5, Romans 4:9.

justbyfaith said:

The translators of the kjv relied on the Lord in order to produce their translation; very much asking Him to control the process of translation. Later translations did not have this type of prayer involved; they were attempting to complete an agenda. I believe I heard that one translation even had a lesbian on its translation team.

But I personally believe that the kjv is the result of God's exact involvement; and since we no longer have access to the original manuscripts, there is no telling as to whether the sentence that you want to scrap is in the original manuscripts, although it may not be in the copies that we have with us today. I believe that trust in the sovereignty, love, and Omnipotence of the Lord, and His involvement in the creation of the kjv, is an important tenet of a living faith in the true Jesus Christ; since other translations indeed preach a different Jesus than the Jesus that is shown forth in the King James Version of the Bible. And since the kjv was first, that might mean that aberrations in teaching by these newer translations do indeed preach another Jesus, as was spoken of in 2 Corinthians 111:3-4.

I hold the kjv to be inerrant and inspired, by faith. My faith is the substance of and the evidence of something in particular (Hebrews 11:1); basically the thing that I am believing in.

Click to expand...

Well, yes there is a way to tell whether that sentence was in the original manuscripts, simply because of the remarks of Christian scholars of the past that studied the Textus Receptus, or Majority Texts, which indeed are copies, but are plentiful.

I love the 1611 KJV and that's what I use, but I realize it is but a translation, and even in the KJV translator's Letter To The Reader, they admit where it falls short. But that still did not prevent the essence of God's Word from the manuscripts to come through into English. But to say it has no translation errors is to be a radical absolutist, as even Acts 12:4 has the word "Easter" when the actual Greek word in the manuscripts is pascha, meaning passover. It's OK to admit the translation errors in the KJV, or any other Bible version. God's Word is not lost by those small translation errors. It won't affect your belief on The Gospel.

Zachary said:

I dabble in the theory that God elects-chooses-calls people ...
for some unknown reason, except that He says several times in the OT
that He desires to dwell with those who have humble and contrite hearts!

This stands opposed to man having total free-will to accept the Gospel message.

Next consideration re: my theory above ...
Does God create people with this attribute, or do they develop this on their own?

The prevailing opinion is that God's call can be rejected.
But, IMO, this rejecting of the call is quite difficult to accomplish,
if my experience has any merit (which it does not).
.

Click to expand...

There's a lot of speculation on this matter mainly because of lack of deeper Bible study on other matters linked to it. Yet God's Word does hint how the process of election works. It is not God's fault that many of us haven't been able to understand it.

For example. How can our Lord Jesus Himself appear to Saul and remove his doubt, converting him, even when Saul was on the way to hunt down Christians? One easily says, "Well, Jesus is God, He can do anything!", but that's not the real point. The real point is, that Saul didn't choose Jesus, but Jesus chose Saul, even called him His "chosen vessel". A study in John 17 reveals more of how this can be for those like Christ's Apostles. At some point, they did choose Christ. The question is just when though.

Davy said:

as even Acts 12:4 has the word "Easter" when the actual Greek word in the manuscripts is pascha, meaning passover.

Click to expand...

I guess you didn't know that the word pascha in the modern Greek language even refers to Easter. It is no mistranslation, therefore.