The saints of Israel

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Davy

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It's not about hate or hatred of the Jews at all, it's about the reality that all who oppose Jesus Christ are not worthy at all, fact is that such never were and never will be worthy.

Only truly born again people regardless of race are the Servants of God and anyone who claims otherwise is an Anti-Christ, such people do not cut it and they can not enter into the Kingdom of God, let alone get to Heaven. lets establish the facts now. if anyone claims otherwise they are of Satan.
I did not make the rules God did and I only serve Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Saviour and I do not serve Mans works or any Kike claiming to be a so called Jew making out that all must idolise them, because fact is that such people even if they were to be the people 2000 years ago does not count for jack. fact is it was only a few who truly served God in the OT like the Prophets for crying out loud as the majority were lost. why did God send the Prophets ? o_O:rolleyes: because they were hopeless and they knew it for a fact and that's why they look to the Prophets in fact but a bastard mob undermined them every step of the way trying to lead them astray, why do you think that they were so eager to kill the Prophets ? and then the bastards demanded Jesus be killed.
Not to mention who were the Golden Calf mob hey !! Yes they tried to kill Holy Moses. just as Jesus said of them who that they were, they were from their Father of lies and they were murders from the beginning. yep bastards as to God. and that's what all people are until they know Jesus is their Lord and Saviour and only him shall you Serve.

However, there are Jews that have converted to Jesus Christ and are Christians, and are 'born again'. And a lot of those don't advertise their heritage from Judah, so most Gentile Christians don't even know those are Jewish.
 
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shilohsfoal

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It's not about hate or hatred of the Jews at all, it's about the reality that all who oppose Jesus Christ are not worthy at all, fact is that such never were and never will be worthy.

Only truly born again people regardless of race are the Servants of God and anyone who claims otherwise is an Anti-Christ, such people do not cut it and they can not enter into the Kingdom of God, let alone get to Heaven. lets establish the facts now. if anyone claims otherwise they are of Satan.
I did not make the rules God did and I only serve Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Saviour and I do not serve Mans works or any Kike claiming to be a so called Jew making out that all must idolise them, because fact is that such people even if they were to be the people 2000 years ago does not count for jack. fact is it was only a few who truly served God in the OT like the Prophets for crying out loud as the majority were lost. why did God send the Prophets ? o_O:rolleyes: because they were hopeless and they knew it for a fact and that's why they look to the Prophets in fact but a bastard mob undermined them every step of the way trying to lead them astray, why do you think that they were so eager to kill the Prophets ? and then the bastards demanded Jesus be killed.
Not to mention who were the Golden Calf mob hey !! Yes they tried to kill Holy Moses. just as Jesus said of them who that they were, they were from their Father of lies and they were murders from the beginning. yep bastards as to God. and that's what all people are until they know Jesus is their Lord and Saviour and only him shall you Serve.

Saul opposed Christ.
Saul the antichrist who,opposed Christ was washed clean by the blood of the lamb.

If God could choose Saul,he could choose anyone.Thats upto him.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Saul opposed Christ.
Saul the antichrist who,opposed Christ was washed clean by the blood of the lamb.

If God could choose Saul,he could choose anyone.Thats upto him.
No ! Saul was a dedicated Jew a Israelite dedicated to God, thinking that he was serving his God, but he was only mislead by the mob he was within, but when he heard St ? who was full of the Holy Spirit speak about the history and facts of Israel and seen what happened to him and then God talked to him why why do you ? you will understand the gravity of the subject and why he was born again and did what he did.

Can you fill in the question marks ?

No ! God does not use just anyone, Satan only does that.
Marry was not just someone you know, as many Satanic idiots claim she was just a nobody that God picked out randomly. no God does not pick anyone out randomly ever, never has and never will.
One has to be truly dedicated to serve God, have you ever heard of a Saint that was not totally dedicated to God.
 

Naomi25

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Did you get a PhD in subtle semantics, somewhere Down Under? :) (ANU, maybe?)
Ha! No, far from it. I did some art at Uni...until I realised that the logical outcome of that would be having to TEACH art to school children. A teacher I am not. Children scare me...they're like little walking time bombs of unpredictability, and like hopping on a wild horse, when they 'go off', all you can really do is flail wildly and hope to bring them back under control. Thank goodness my own children are different in that respect!!
 

Naomi25

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Do you believe you were beheaded for your testimony of Christ?
Do you believe you rejected the mark,of the beast which is used for buying and selling?

Revelation 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark--the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Id like to see how im fundamentsling missing how you didnt tecieve the mark,of the beast by the srcond beast which will be used for buying and selling.

Let me ask you some questions about Revelation. Do you think that there will actually be a woman in the stars giving birth? And an actual dragon up there about to devour her child? Do you think that there will come a time when there will be another woman riding upon a beast, drinking filth from her cup? Is Christ really a lamb or a lion? We know the churches are not really lampstands and the bride is not really the new Jerusalem.
It is those who try and force a strictly literal reading upon this book that end up in absurdities like 'locust demons are helicopters'. How literal is that, honestly? Even those trying to read it strictly 'literally', cannot, because it is NOT a book that is meant to be read literally.
Rev 1:1-2 tells us that the entire book is one communicated to John in visions and images...symbols. The symbology within the book clearly harkens back to OT apocolypic imagery, which no one tries to read literally. In Daniel, we all know that the beasts stand for different Nations and kings. We know these types of images are not literal, because the OT has set a precedent for us. And Rev 1:1-2 has informed us how we should, therefore, read it. To imagine then, that every single image within that book should be explained in minute detail, when that detail has already been provided for the diligent who owns or knows the OT, is rather silly and goes against any form of writing known.

So, with that in mind, what makes me, or you, think that when I come to Rev 14 and it talks of a mark that it has to be a literal mark? It doesn't. As I've previously pointed out, the OT gives a precedence for it NOT being a literal mark. Church history also gives a precedence of it NOT being a literal mark. The very people John was writing to was suffering the exact sort of persecution and trouble that Rev 14 was speaking of. In the days of Emperor worship and trade guilds, those who would not worship the Emperor or the god of that 'guild', would not be granted enterance. Keep in mind that said worship of these gods would often require engaging in group prostitution and many other acts that would clearly mark a difference between those following Christ and those following the ways of this world. The problem, of course, is that if you weren't in a guild, it was almost impossible to buy, sell or work. Christians were starving, being chased down and beheaded for their faith. Because they would NOT engage in the worship and deeds of this world.
And thus it has always been in at least some part of this world, and so it shall be until the coming of our Saviour. Just because you and I are blessed to not have to pay with our heads doesn't mean a time is not coming where we might have to, and it doesn't mean that our brothers and sisters are not.
 
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Naomi25

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The Jews are not part of the Church at all, how can they be when such reject Jesus as the Christ. such is a Anti-Christ in fact.

Any Jew who believes in Christ becomes a member of the Church. Therefore there is no Jew or Gentile.
As far as the rest of them; no...they are not Christian and their status is just that: Jewish unbelievers. But I think Romans 9-11 argues a convincing case that there will come a time where a great many of them will come to Christ...in other words, become part of the Church.

I hear idiots calling the Jews our big brothers, no fact is they are like Cain, as Jesus said that they were of there Father of lies and were murders from the beginning.
Who killed Jesus ? the head of the Jews demanded it and the rest followed along with it like dogs but for a few who knew he was the Christ because they were true to God and were true Israelites, the rest were not worthy to be Israelites at all. so you only had a hand full of people who were worthy of Christ Jesus and it was they who were the first Christians. the rest missed the bus and were lost to Satans power

In point of fact, the Romans killed Jesus. The Jews certainly shoved him there. But I think you're missing the larger theological fact that all of our sins put him there. It is wrong to blame a single people group or historical group. If we do not partake in his crucifiction and the shame that put him there, the sins that he paid for, then it strikes me that it is hard for us to share in the forgiveness he bought for us there.
The point is, I think, that while the Jews are not Christians at this point, it is very, very wrong of us to hate them, for any reason. Remember, Paul tells us that even after everything, they are still loved, for the sake of the patriachy. We must echo that, and attempt to bring as many to Christ as we can.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Any Jew who believes in Christ becomes a member of the Church. Therefore there is no Jew or Gentile.
As far as the rest of them; no...they are not Christian and their status is just that: Jewish unbelievers. But I think Romans 9-11 argues a convincing case that there will come a time where a great many of them will come to Christ...in other words, become part of the Church.



In point of fact, the Romans killed Jesus. The Jews certainly shoved him there. But I think you're missing the larger theological fact that all of our sins put him there. It is wrong to blame a single people group or historical group. If we do not partake in his crucifiction and the shame that put him there, the sins that he paid for, then it strikes me that it is hard for us to share in the forgiveness he bought for us there.
The point is, I think, that while the Jews are not Christians at this point, it is very, very wrong of us to hate them, for any reason. Remember, Paul tells us that even after everything, they are still loved, for the sake of the patriachy. We must echo that, and attempt to bring as many to Christ as we can.
It's nothing to do with hatred at all, it's all about facts of the matter.
I come from the Jews line that became Christians but don't be fooled into the rubbish that is been peddled by so called delusional so called Christians who are truly idolising so called Jews, you see I said so called Jews. not to mention the thing is that they are not Jews at all and that's the point.
Fact is that any worthy Jew that truly believes in Holy Moses has the ability to come to Christ Jesus in fact because it was he who said such. now any so called Jew that does not truly look to Holy Moses is not worthy at all and if they follow the Talmud they are just like the Golden Calf mob in fact who tried to kill Moses. that's the point one mob are of Satan in fact and only about 10% are worthy of being called Jews, because they follow the OT and the others in fact
just do not.
So it comes down to this some kike claiming to be a Jew, who truly is in fact of Satan
Or a true Jew who is devout that abides in the OT and Moses. the difference is like caulk and chees. one should not be fooled.

We have so called Christians as well and they are peddling mans works and other rubbish because they are in fact of Satan and they are trying to lead others astray.

I understand the fact that Sin put him their for sure and that has nothing to do with race ect at all and I understood the fact of that way before the Pope claimed such.
The point of people ranting on about Jews being some God given race is nonsense anyone who peddles that is a bigoted racist Satanic moron, fact is that Jesus Christ has come and that such a thing has nothing to do with Christianity at all and if anyone peddles Jewish superiority race theory go join the Nazi party and you will get on great with their brother Zionist socialist mates. Hitler was a Zionist Jew in fact and the Talmud controlled him to make the stupid Germans to dance to their tune.

I get bastards demanding that I am a Jew when they see my sir name and I say that I am a Christian and they totally dismiss this just so rudely and cold heartedly, fact is that I have never come across such a rude response, I say thanks for insulting me ! I just informed you what I am ? I could see the very such people would truly be taking me off to the camps in a heart beat in Germany's early 1940's for a fact.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Jews are an insult to Christ Jesus for they are Anti-Christ in fact and that has nothing to do with race at all but a religion that rubs it in and are trying to undermine Christianity and they are doing a good job of it for sure that I can see of it and I say that we have never had such a ignorant so called Christian flock in 2000years, because they are bastardising Jesus Christ and idolising the Talmud so called Zionist creation that is Socialism to the core a mans works doctrine, it in fact empowers man over God in fact, no one could be so stupid not to know this fact.
Socialism when it evolves becomes Communism, a dictatorship that just changes direction with the trend of the leader at the time and they who foolishly back them up to get into power, then they will just turn on once they are in power, such people they are called useful idiots and anyone who comes across their criminally insane Party they just kill all opposition to it.
 

farouk

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Any Jew who believes in Christ becomes a member of the Church. Therefore there is no Jew or Gentile.
As far as the rest of them; no...they are not Christian and their status is just that: Jewish unbelievers. But I think Romans 9-11 argues a convincing case that there will come a time where a great many of them will come to Christ...in other words, become part of the Church.



In point of fact, the Romans killed Jesus. The Jews certainly shoved him there. But I think you're missing the larger theological fact that all of our sins put him there. It is wrong to blame a single people group or historical group. If we do not partake in his crucifiction and the shame that put him there, the sins that he paid for, then it strikes me that it is hard for us to share in the forgiveness he bought for us there.
The point is, I think, that while the Jews are not Christians at this point, it is very, very wrong of us to hate them, for any reason. Remember, Paul tells us that even after everything, they are still loved, for the sake of the patriachy. We must echo that, and attempt to bring as many to Christ as we can.
1 Corinthians 10.32 indicates there are basically 3 groups of ppl; Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. The church is made up of ppl from either Jewish or Gentile backgrounds.
 

Keraz

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1 Corinthians 10.32 indicates there are basically 3 groups of ppl; Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. The church is made up of ppl from either Jewish or Gentile backgrounds.
Yes, there are three groups of people described here:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbors; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5, 2 Peter 3:7

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbors, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Yes, there are three groups of people described here:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbors; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5, 2 Peter 3:7

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbors, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47

One problem is that the Messianic Jews are rejecting Jesus Christ and are truly only looking to another.
It's like 2000 years ago looking at Jesus Christ and rejecting him as they themselves are looking elsewhere, that's what they are doing and that's why the peddle the 2ed coming all the time as that's all that they have to hold on to, because they reject Jesus Christ.

I know their works and they do not truly respect our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, or they would of become Christians in a heart beat if they knew the fact. one can not serve two masters.

Messianic Jews truly an insult to Christ Jesus in fact.
One Christian leader thought that I was a Messianic Jew and that the Jews I know are Messianic Jews, no ! I said they are only just Jews and I am a truly born again Christian in fact, now before that I was just only a water baptised Christian and I could of easily of been deceived to renounce Christianity by that lot of weeds who only try and choke the life out of me that I had as a small Christian (parable of the weeds) and become only some poor wretched miserable Jew that is totally lost, living a life of works and under the Law, thank God that I am not under the Law but under Grace.
What a horror it would be to be lost and under the Law, living a un Godly life and looking at others as they do in spite with malice in your heart.
If one have not Grace they are a curse on all because they are only a curse themselves and I am not fooled by such people as their is a great gulf between us in fact, as they do not have the Holy Spirit but are only peddling a mans works religion.

Islam is much the same as messianic Jews they do talk of a Jesus just the same but they do not know him, for if they did know him they would become Christians in a heart beat. such is the power of one under Grace. do not be fooled by such people for they talk of another Jesus who is not the Christ to them at all and that's a fact.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Look I tell people, you must be Saved and the only way is through Jesus Christ, no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son in fact and no other way is possible at all.
So when one is truly born again, then you will know for sure and totally certain of that Jesus is the Christ 100% not 99% and the only one you serve and come hell or high water you are not going to reject that, as such a one can not be snatched out of his hand ever and that's a fact.

If one is looking for the second coming you are lost, such a one can not be saved in fact because they are looking for Christ Jesus, but I know that I am found and their is nothing more to it for me as I am on home ground within the Kingdome of God now, all that I await is others to come in and when the second coming comes in, then I will be their to greet them in, welcoming them home.

Many a truly born again Christian has come into the Kingdom of God for 2000 years ago now and anyone who rejects that is of Satan, as they are trying to claim all before the second coming are not worthy and that's a lie and such exposes them as they truly have another Jesus and it's a mans works one, who is the Devil that they serve.
 

Naomi25

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It's nothing to do with hatred at all, it's all about facts of the matter.
I come from the Jews line that became Christians but don't be fooled into the rubbish that is been peddled by so called delusional so called Christians who are truly idolising so called Jews, you see I said so called Jews. not to mention the thing is that they are not Jews at all and that's the point.
I don't think I'm fooled at all. And I most certainly wouldn't put myself in the category of those who blithely believe that the Jewish nation can do no wrong just because of who they are...or more to the point, who their ancestors were. They're people without Christ, and that puts them rather solidly in the exact same position as every other nation in the world.

Fact is that any worthy Jew that truly believes in Holy Moses has the ability to come to Christ Jesus in fact because it was he who said such. now any so called Jew that does not truly look to Holy Moses is not worthy at all and if they follow the Talmud they are just like the Golden Calf mob in fact who tried to kill Moses. that's the point one mob are of Satan in fact and only about 10% are worthy of being called Jews, because they follow the OT and the others in fact
just do not.
So it comes down to this some kike claiming to be a Jew, who truly is in fact of Satan
Or a true Jew who is devout that abides in the OT and Moses. the difference is like caulk and chees. one should not be fooled.
I see it a little differently. The bible tells us that a 'true Jew' is one with the Holy Spirit:

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. -Romans 2:29

If, then, we know that a "true Jew" is, more or less, anyone who comes to Christ and is regenerated with the Holy Spirit, and we are also told that 'in Christ' there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just one body; why do you suppose Paul, in Romans 8-11 spent so much time differentiating between the body of Christ and "Israel"?
We know that the majority of them are unsaved, have been 'broken off' from the olive tree in their unblief. Should't we then, under the aformentioned reasoning expect that there should be only two categories? Saved and unsaved?
Well...not entirely, according to Romans 11

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. -Romans 11:11

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. -Romans 11:24-2
5

There seems a very specific purpose and timing to 'Israels' hardening. And we cannot ignore the specific difference Paul is placing on the nation state of 'Israel' here, as opposed to Gentile unbelievers and believers in general.
Which brings me to conclude that while the current nation state of Israel is currently an unsaved, un-godly nation, a time will come where God, in his mercy and grand plan, will bring many of them to his Son Jesus...grafting them back onto the tree.

We have so called Christians as well and they are peddling mans works and other rubbish because they are in fact of Satan and they are trying to lead others astray.

I understand the fact that Sin put him their for sure and that has nothing to do with race ect at all and I understood the fact of that way before the Pope claimed such.
The point of people ranting on about Jews being some God given race is nonsense anyone who peddles that is a bigoted racist Satanic moron, fact is that Jesus Christ has come and that such a thing has nothing to do with Christianity at all and if anyone peddles Jewish superiority race theory go join the Nazi party and you will get on great with their brother Zionist socialist mates. Hitler was a Zionist Jew in fact and the Talmud controlled him to make the stupid Germans to dance to their tune.
A "bigoted racist Satanic moron"? Hitler was a Zionist Jew? Do you also, pehaps, think that the people who got shoved through the concentration camps 'had it coming' because of all the above facts?
Man...I'm sorry, but what honestly gives you leave to insult in such a manner those you think are in error?
If you think your brothers and sisters in Christ are wrong, show them from scripture and reason, not from hateful names and ideas that spew onto the page in all its vitriol.
Because honestly, that's what I get from this post; not reason, just a lot of anger.

The bottom line? People are people, and you treat them with respect and the hope that Christ will make them your brother or sister. The "Jewish" people, however you want to categorize them, are no more or less than that. Anything beyond that is a biblical debate...one that I do not think you are in the right state of mind to enter into at present.
 

Naomi25

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1 Corinthians 10.32 indicates there are basically 3 groups of ppl; Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. The church is made up of ppl from either Jewish or Gentile backgrounds.
I wouldn't argue with this. All I would say is that the Jewish people (not in the Church), while having a distinct cultural difference from Gentiles, still do not have salvation in anyway outside of Christ. Therefore to suggest that there is some other 'plan' for the Jewish nation, cannot be biblical. Because the bible states clearly that the ONLY way to the Father is through Christ; and anyone who comes to Christ is automatically part of the Church.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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I don't think I'm fooled at all. And I most certainly wouldn't put myself in the category of those who blithely believe that the Jewish nation can do no wrong just because of who they are...or more to the point, who their ancestors were. They're people without Christ, and that puts them rather solidly in the exact same position as every other nation in the world.


I see it a little differently. The bible tells us that a 'true Jew' is one with the Holy Spirit:

But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. -Romans 2:29

If, then, we know that a "true Jew" is, more or less, anyone who comes to Christ and is regenerated with the Holy Spirit, and we are also told that 'in Christ' there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just one body; why do you suppose Paul, in Romans 8-11 spent so much time differentiating between the body of Christ and "Israel"?
We know that the majority of them are unsaved, have been 'broken off' from the olive tree in their unblief. Should't we then, under the aformentioned reasoning expect that there should be only two categories? Saved and unsaved?
Well...not entirely, according to Romans 11

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. -Romans 11:11

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. -Romans 11:24-2
5

There seems a very specific purpose and timing to 'Israels' hardening. And we cannot ignore the specific difference Paul is placing on the nation state of 'Israel' here, as opposed to Gentile unbelievers and believers in general.
Which brings me to conclude that while the current nation state of Israel is currently an unsaved, un-godly nation, a time will come where God, in his mercy and grand plan, will bring many of them to his Son Jesus...grafting them back onto the tree.


A "bigoted racist Satanic moron"? Hitler was a Zionist Jew? Do you also, pehaps, think that the people who got shoved through the concentration camps 'had it coming' because of all the above facts?
Man...I'm sorry, but what honestly gives you leave to insult in such a manner those you think are in error?
If you think your brothers and sisters in Christ are wrong, show them from scripture and reason, not from hateful names and ideas that spew onto the page in all its vitriol.
Because honestly, that's what I get from this post; not reason, just a lot of anger.

The bottom line? People are people, and you treat them with respect and the hope that Christ will make them your brother or sister. The "Jewish" people, however you want to categorize them, are no more or less than that. Anything beyond that is a biblical debate...one that I do not think you are in the right state of mind to enter into at present.
Romans 2:29 to put it better the Jew here means Gods people who are much like water baptised under the tribe or unity under God.

8:11 you have lost me as to the point, fact is that the body of Christ = the Church and Israel are the same in fact as Christ is the King of Israel regardless be it the lead astray Jews who don't follow or not, just because one rejects such a fact does not change the fact does it.

11:11 Jealous ? it must be understood here in a good sense.

11:20-25 The gifts and the call of God are without repentance; this statement must be understood, in the light of the context, of the gifts mentioned in 9:4 especially of the gift of being the chosen people. The Jews remain the people of God's predilection, and will eventually be converted and saved. that's eventually ? not now as they are under a curse because all who reject Jesus Christ are in fact Anti-Christ to be sure and anyone who says otherwise is of Satan.

Look Israel never went anywhere as that Tree still stands in Christ Jesus in fact as he is the King, it's only that others are lead astray and 2000 years ago most Jews were lead astray and missed the boat so to speak. Jesus disciples never were broken off were they ! why do so many goyim dismiss them, they are true Israelites they were not broken off at all, they were the beginning founders of the Church in Christ Jesus and you goyim think that it's a goyim Christ and that the Israelites are outside of you, but that is clearly not the case as who do you think the disciples are ? they are Israelites who knew Jesus was the Christ their King.

Look most Jews were lost but not all in fact and where would Christianity of been without them disciples hey ? just because the ones who were lead astray are rattled on about, who cares about them, when the times comes they will come home. just like the prodigal Son. they are blighted fools who will not be worthy of God until they come to Christ Jesus, fact is that apart from that they are only a Curse because they are lost as to God.

A Christian does not idolise fools, not to mention any Anti-Christ, as how stupid could one be to do so and that is only a new age concept that has come about in the last 20 years or so, that's getting out of hand idolising so called Jews, it's madness and it's a work of Satan.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Hitler was a Talmud Jew and a Zionist Socialist and that sticks out like dogs balls, if you ever bothered to look into it all and understood what was truly at hand going on.

Look the majority of people are only indoctrinated as to studying the subject and have never even bothered to look into such things themselves because they are too lazy or to stupid or do not truly care to be bothered, sure it will take many years to look into all such and one has to have a burning desire to do such I know or you will just not do such.
I remember the old Jews that talked about their days in the Nazi camps back in the late 60 and early 70's that came to party's and at the end all of the different wogs would all talk about the war as to what they did and all, I remember and I loved hearing about all this debating as well.
My school education on WW2 was a joke and boring as, but being with them old dudes was truly an education and my schooling was only indoctrination, one could hardly call that an education.

Do you reject that the Zionist were not in bed with the Nazis, I wonder why they do not inform the world that they were in fact.

Do you know what the Talmud is and what they do and how they do what they do, let alone what they want to do to you and all Christians, it's not a secret they openly say it all, not to mention what they have done all through history from the Golden Calf on, undermining Holy Moses and leading the Jews astray, not to mention that they only claim to be Jews but truly they are not truly Jews at all, they created the Communist they feed it to keep it alive, they create division and everything to lead the majority astray to become fools under their power. they created the Zionist and the Nazis, it's all a game play to them. they killed the 6 million Jews and the 60 million goyim in WW2 for their plans. as Jesus said who that they were lyres and murders from the beginning and they killed Jesus Christ.
Many Jews nowadays reject the so called Zionist as they can see them for what they truly are and they do not want them representing them at all.
 

Naomi25

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Romans 2:29 to put it better the Jew here means Gods people who are much like water baptised under the tribe or unity under God.
Well, personally I'd submit that the bible 'puts it the best'. And, I think the passage is more or less discussing whether or not a person can consider themselves saved; yes, a 'people of God'. And Paul is clear that it's not by following the external commands of the law, but in having a heartfelt change deep within, something only really affected by the Holy Spirit.

I think in this, we more or less agree; the people of current National Israel, are just people. They are not 'the people of God', for that designation only belongs to those in Christ.

However, the bigger question seems to be; do we therefore image we should or could just label them as gentile unbelievers, or does the bible still seem to separate 'unbelieving' people into two categories; Jew and Gentile. It's true that division is broken down once people are IN Christ, but outside of it? And if therefore, the bible does speak of this distinction, do we then go on to read Rom 11 in a light that suggests God still has a plan or purpose for that distinct, if unbelieving at present, people group?

8:11 you have lost me as to the point, fact is that the body of Christ = the Church and Israel are the same in fact as Christ is the King of Israel regardless be it the lead astray Jews who don't follow or not, just because one rejects such a fact does not change the fact does it.
Romans Chapters 9 (not 8, sorry, typo) to 11, speak TO Christian believers; the Church. But it speaks to them ABOUT Israel. Now, while we can take a step back and plot out biblically that the Church has been grafted onto the Olive tree and is now sharing the same space as Elect, remnant Israel, there is still, within the text, a clear distinction between the Church, and the 'Israel' that Paul is speaking about. The 'Israel' Paul is speaking to the believers about are those who are in unbelief and who have been broken off the tree. It is their hardening that has marched God's purposes foward to the Gentile nation, and, Paul tells us, from the jealousy of that very mission, that 'Israel' will be provoked and 'saved'.
Now...say what you want, and feel free to interpret it differently, but in a literary sense, there is no way the 'Israel' Paul is speaking about in these passages, can be considered to be either the Church, or the believing Jews within the Church (which are still just church members anyway). The only way the passage can be read with any kind of logical understanding is if Paul is diferentiating between the people of God (the Church) and unbelieving Jews. Which, in my opinion, makes them still a people group. Even if they are currently in unbelief. Otherwise Paul would have, as he 'broke down the wall of division' within the Church, between Jews and Gentiles, would have instead broke down the wall separating the Jews and Gentiles who are in unbelief. In short, what we'd have would be 'believers' and 'unbelievers'. If this is the case, it's strange, is it not, that Paul spends 3 whole Chapters speaking about unbelieving Jews?

11:11 Jealous ? it must be understood here in a good sense.
Well, understanding it in a biblical sense would have us understanding that God would like to provoke in them a flame for him and only him through Christ Jesus, shouldn't we think?
We could also look at a previous verse that hints at it too:

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, -Romans 11:7

You have a whole nation of people who have an incredible history with God. And through all of it, their very longing has been for Messiah to come. Now, they missed him, and in their 'trespass' God took the gospel to the Gentiles. But now we have something that they don't. Most of them think we're blasphemers, but every now and then what we have provokes someone to look at Christ, look at their own prophecies that speak of Messiah.
I believe that Rom 11 speaks about that in larger numbers.

11:20-25 The gifts and the call of God are without repentance; this statement must be understood, in the light of the context, of the gifts mentioned in 9:4 especially of the gift of being the chosen people. The Jews remain the people of God's predilection, and will eventually be converted and saved. that's eventually ? not now as they are under a curse because all who reject Jesus Christ are in fact Anti-Christ to be sure and anyone who says otherwise is of Satan.

So, firstly, I don't believe I have, in any way, suggested that the Jewish people are saved or 'God's chosen people' now. And yes, I do happen to think that those Christians who think the Nation of Israel can do no wrong and must still function under the label of 'God's chosen people' are, in fact, mistaken. But it is a long, long way from mistaken to 'of Satan and is Anti-Christ'. Because the bible specifically tells us what 'anti-Christ' is, and they are those who deny Jesus has come in the flesh, from God and is the Christ. So, while these people are mistaken on some theological issues, I have not heard a single one of them deny these things. They are not antichrist. And to be perfectly blunt, trying to woo someone to see doctrine differently then they do, with reason and scripture, is never going to get anywhere if you start the conversation by telling them they are 'of Satan'.

Look Israel never went anywhere as that Tree still stands in Christ Jesus in fact as he is the King, it's only that others are lead astray and 2000 years ago most Jews were lead astray and missed the boat so to speak. Jesus disciples never were broken off were they ! why do so many goyim dismiss them, they are true Israelites they were not broken off at all, they were the beginning founders of the Church in Christ Jesus and you goyim think that it's a goyim Christ and that the Israelites are outside of you, but that is clearly not the case as who do you think the disciples are ? they are Israelites who knew Jesus was the Christ their King.

Who's discounting the disciples? Who's saying that the unbelieving Jews weren't led astray?
One can quite easily trace the elect, 'true believers' of Israel all the way back from Abraham to Christ, all the while acknowledging that there were Jews even then who fell away from God. And they can do it just as easily in the NT, where the unbelievers are still being cut off the tree and believers, Gentiles now, are being grafted in. But that still leaves, from the bibles own voice, the option of those branches being grafted back in. Of unbelieving Jews coming to Christ.

Look most Jews were lost but not all in fact and where would Christianity of been without them disciples hey ? just because the ones who were lead astray are rattled on about, who cares about them, when the times comes they will come home. just like the prodigal Son. they are blighted fools who will not be worthy of God until they come to Christ Jesus, fact is that apart from that they are only a Curse because they are lost as to God.
'who cares about them'? As I said before, as they are human beings, we ought to! And we know God does. How can you so easily or callously dismiss a nation of people as not needing to know about Christ? Doesn't it rend your heart just a little bit that they are SO CLOSE to the truth? They don't worship Allah or Budda or some outrageously false god. They call on the real God of the bible...but without Jesus it still doesn't matter! Doesn't that make you ache for them just a little bit?
Because if it doesn't, maybe you should just go back and read the parts of scripture that speaks about how we are to act/think/behave around unbelievers full stop. And how God loves them even as he holds them under judgement. We must never stop praying for them until their, or our, end. And that goes for everyone.

A Christian does not idolise fools, not to mention any Anti-Christ, as how stupid could one be to do so and that is only a new age concept that has come about in the last 20 years or so, that's getting out of hand idolising so called Jews, it's madness and it's a work of Satan.

Mmmm, that's right. Call em idolizing fools of Satan. That'll help change their mind. I'm sure that when you point to scripture now they'll be intent on listening to your lesson.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Well, personally I'd submit that the bible 'puts it the best'. And, I think the passage is more or less discussing whether or not a person can consider themselves saved; yes, a 'people of God'. And Paul is clear that it's not by following the external commands of the law, but in having a heartfelt change deep within, something only really affected by the Holy Spirit.

I think in this, we more or less agree; the people of current National Israel, are just people. They are not 'the people of God', for that designation only belongs to those in Christ.

However, the bigger question seems to be; do we therefore image we should or could just label them as gentile unbelievers, or does the bible still seem to separate 'unbelieving' people into two categories; Jew and Gentile. It's true that division is broken down once people are IN Christ, but outside of it? And if therefore, the bible does speak of this distinction, do we then go on to read Rom 11 in a light that suggests God still has a plan or purpose for that distinct, if unbelieving at present, people group?


Romans Chapters 9 (not 8, sorry, typo) to 11, speak TO Christian believers; the Church. But it speaks to them ABOUT Israel. Now, while we can take a step back and plot out biblically that the Church has been grafted onto the Olive tree and is now sharing the same space as Elect, remnant Israel, there is still, within the text, a clear distinction between the Church, and the 'Israel' that Paul is speaking about. The 'Israel' Paul is speaking to the believers about are those who are in unbelief and who have been broken off the tree. It is their hardening that has marched God's purposes foward to the Gentile nation, and, Paul tells us, from the jealousy of that very mission, that 'Israel' will be provoked and 'saved'.
Now...say what you want, and feel free to interpret it differently, but in a literary sense, there is no way the 'Israel' Paul is speaking about in these passages, can be considered to be either the Church, or the believing Jews within the Church (which are still just church members anyway). The only way the passage can be read with any kind of logical understanding is if Paul is diferentiating between the people of God (the Church) and unbelieving Jews. Which, in my opinion, makes them still a people group. Even if they are currently in unbelief. Otherwise Paul would have, as he 'broke down the wall of division' within the Church, between Jews and Gentiles, would have instead broke down the wall separating the Jews and Gentiles who are in unbelief. In short, what we'd have would be 'believers' and 'unbelievers'. If this is the case, it's strange, is it not, that Paul spends 3 whole Chapters speaking about unbelieving Jews?


Well, understanding it in a biblical sense would have us understanding that God would like to provoke in them a flame for him and only him through Christ Jesus, shouldn't we think?
We could also look at a previous verse that hints at it too:

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, -Romans 11:7

You have a whole nation of people who have an incredible history with God. And through all of it, their very longing has been for Messiah to come. Now, they missed him, and in their 'trespass' God took the gospel to the Gentiles. But now we have something that they don't. Most of them think we're blasphemers, but every now and then what we have provokes someone to look at Christ, look at their own prophecies that speak of Messiah.
I believe that Rom 11 speaks about that in larger numbers.



So, firstly, I don't believe I have, in any way, suggested that the Jewish people are saved or 'God's chosen people' now. And yes, I do happen to think that those Christians who think the Nation of Israel can do no wrong and must still function under the label of 'God's chosen people' are, in fact, mistaken. But it is a long, long way from mistaken to 'of Satan and is Anti-Christ'. Because the bible specifically tells us what 'anti-Christ' is, and they are those who deny Jesus has come in the flesh, from God and is the Christ. So, while these people are mistaken on some theological issues, I have not heard a single one of them deny these things. They are not antichrist. And to be perfectly blunt, trying to woo someone to see doctrine differently then they do, with reason and scripture, is never going to get anywhere if you start the conversation by telling them they are 'of Satan'.



Who's discounting the disciples? Who's saying that the unbelieving Jews weren't led astray?
One can quite easily trace the elect, 'true believers' of Israel all the way back from Abraham to Christ, all the while acknowledging that there were Jews even then who fell away from God. And they can do it just as easily in the NT, where the unbelievers are still being cut off the tree and believers, Gentiles now, are being grafted in. But that still leaves, from the bibles own voice, the option of those branches being grafted back in. Of unbelieving Jews coming to Christ.


'who cares about them'? As I said before, as they are human beings, we ought to! And we know God does. How can you so easily or callously dismiss a nation of people as not needing to know about Christ? Doesn't it rend your heart just a little bit that they are SO CLOSE to the truth? They don't worship Allah or Budda or some outrageously false god. They call on the real God of the bible...but without Jesus it still doesn't matter! Doesn't that make you ache for them just a little bit?
Because if it doesn't, maybe you should just go back and read the parts of scripture that speaks about how we are to act/think/behave around unbelievers full stop. And how God loves them even as he holds them under judgement. We must never stop praying for them until their, or our, end. And that goes for everyone.



Mmmm, that's right. Call em idolizing fools of Satan. That'll help change their mind. I'm sure that when you point to scripture now they'll be intent on listening to your lesson.
Look at the end of the day there are no Jews in fact, not one can trace their family tree back anyway and if they could so what as they will be breed in with other races anyway, Look the Talmud has tried to exterminate all the blood line Jews for over 2000 years, not that it is truly a race or blood line anyway truly, as it's all about God and the Holy Spirit in fact. as I may of said before the only real people who served God were the Prophets remember them ? the rest were nothing much at all were they as to them and then came the Son of God remember him ? one dude ? not a majority you know, their was only some dudes that were trying to point out that the leadership was wrong and that they were leading the majority astray in fact, so forget the race as Jesus Christ has come and all must follow in him end of story.

I am sick of how the Talmud peddles through the Christian Churches nowadays trying to idolise so called people of God when in fact the only people of God are they that are born again and saved, as it's only they who know truly who Jesus Christ is and follow him only and that's all any person in the world has to do regardless of who or what they may think that they are in fact.

I had people coming to me claiming that I am a Jew and angry at me for rejecting them, I do not need them at all they are of Satan ! they think that I need them ? I don not need them and for one as I am found and if they knew that for a fact, they may understand where I am coming from but they don't because they are lost be it they who claim to be Jews or lost claiming to be Christians, but are under strong delusions. no one is above another and the whole Bible points that out apart from God who has his true servants, many claim to be such but in their works we can see their true colours.

I preach the Lord Jesus Christ and no other as I do not care less who anyone thinks they are, be it the Pope ect.

Look I love people (Jews) who are in depth into the OT as I love to talk with them and go over the whole thing with them for sure, I do not care what another's race is at all. and when one is born again and I know one is we are brothers in God and it's a fantastic thing because we are on the same path and not under delusions of mans works. [Edited by the Admin]
 
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Naomi25

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Look at the end of the day there are no Jews in fact, not one can trace their family tree back anyway and if they could so what as they will be breed in with other races anyway, Look the Talmud has tried to exterminate all the blood line Jews for over 2000 years, not that it is truly a race or blood line anyway truly, as it's all about God and the Holy Spirit in fact. as I may of said before the only real people who served God were the Prophets remember them ? the rest were nothing much at all were they as to them and then came the Son of God remember him ? one dude ? not a majority you know, their was only some dudes that were trying to point out that the leadership was wrong and that they were leading the majority astray in fact, so forget the race as Jesus Christ has come and all must follow in him end of story.
I hear this argument a lot, but I'm not sure it holds any water, biblically. Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, was not "Jewish". He was a Caananite. God chose him to become the 'father' of the people of God, and the covenant of this decision was marked by circumcision. Now, all the tribe of Abraham, and the families that came from him, the "Israel" nation, were marked by this, as well as the other laws that came into effect by the Mosaic Law. But if you pay attention to the OT, there are rules that allow 'gentiles' to become Jews if they, as Abraham had done, became circumcised and followed the laws as God commanded (Ex 12:48). And we know from prominent figures in scripture that it happened: Rahab, Naomi, Tamar and Bathsheba. These gentile women became essential in the lineage of Christ himself, and yet clearly their blood was NOT Jewish.

All this to say: What marked a "Jew" a "Jew" in the OT was the keeping of the old covenant between Israel and God. Blood was never a huge part of it. The people we see today? They attempt to keep the old covenant. We know, of course, that the old covenant is obsolete and that a new one has come. Paul tells us that a 'true Jew' is one who has the laws and circumcision upon their hearts instead.

But, as I keep pointing out, while WE are aware of what constitue the believer, those joined to the Olive tree, there are still those who hold to the old ways, and Paul distinguishes them and talks of them in Rom 9-11. He does not distinguish them or speak of them as being saved by these traditions they keep, but it does mark them out.

I am sick of how the Talmud peddles through the Christian Churches nowadays trying to idolise so called people of God when in fact the only people of God are they that are born again and saved, as it's only they who know truly who Jesus Christ is and follow him only and that's all any person in the world has to do regardless of who or what they may think that they are in fact.

I had people coming to me claiming that I am a Jew and angry at me for rejecting them, I do not need them at all they are of Satan ! they think that I need them ? I don not need them and for one as I am found and if they knew that for a fact, they may understand where I am coming from but they don't because they are lost be it they who claim to be Jews or lost claiming to be Christians, but are under strong delusions. no one is above another and the whole Bible points that out apart from God who has his true servants, many claim to be such but in their works we can see their true colours.

I preach the Lord Jesus Christ and no other as I do not care less who anyone thinks they are, be it the Pope ect.
You seem very angry over a specific thing and can't seem to move past it. I'm not sure who you are speaking to, but for myself, and even for those I know who DO hold national Israel with a fautly degree of prominence, we also preach Jesus Christ. Even Dispensationalists, as mistaken as they are as to the "two programs" still believe openly that the Jewish people must recieve Christ to be saved.
So, I'm not sure who these[removed] are you speak of...but I cannot say I'm surprised one bit if they are perhaps angry when you open your mouth.

Look I love people (Jews) who are in depth into the OT as I love to talk with them and go over the whole thing with them for sure, I do not care what another's race is at all. and when one is born again and I know one is we are brothers in God and it's a fantastic thing because we are on the same path and not under delusions of mans works.

Really? I'm sorry, but I can't quite believe you don't seem to see how illogical and angry you are being over the topic. You say you love all unsaved, but then you say things so vile and hateful that I can barely understand how you have not been sensored on a Christian site.

[sensoring now ~ edited by Angelina]
 
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Jay Ross

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I hear this argument a lot, but I'm not sure it holds any water, biblically. Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, was not "Jewish". He was a Caananite.

From what I have been able to establish from the Chronology of the Book of Genesis, Abraham came through the line of Shem's descendants.

The Canaanites came through the line of Ham's descendants.

Abraham was considered to be a Hebrew as he was a descendant of Eber. Gen_14_13 confirms this.

Shalom
 
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