Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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Enoch111

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...ignorant anti-Catholics who refuse to understand much of anything.
The problem arises when the *ignorant anti-Catholics* quote from your own Catechism (or the rulings of Council of Trent which are still in force) and prove from Scripture that the Catholic church teaches false doctrines. Then they are accused of being liars even though the proof is before everyone else.

What Catholics need to do (in all honesty) is begin with the premise that Rome has POSSIBLY been misleading them for ages, therefore they owe it to themselves to search the Scriptures, not the pronouncements from the Vatican. Just as the Pharisees were misleading the Jews, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has been deliberately misleading Christians.
 
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GodsGrace

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Well, it's pivotal doctrinally in the symbolism, and in John's Gospel we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together so closely in redemption.
I have come to the conclusion that if Jesus said to get baptized...
it must surely be more than symbolism.

It must surely be more than just showing outwardly that we belong to a community.
The symbolism that we die to sin and are alive in Christ (going down into the water and coming back up) doesn't seem, to me, to be enough for me anymore.

There has to be more to this.
 

GodsGrace

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The parent is held responsible for the child. Similarly the priest who is reckless about confession is held accountable if he is too lax. If he is sloppy and tells someone his sins are forgiven when all sins haven't been fully confessed, the priest is agreeing to bear the consequences. Jesus told his Apostle they could remit sins, and that's how they do it. It's also why being a martyr works. If you are willing to die because of the love you see in Jesus and wish others could see it too, God will not allow your blood to be wasted. Similarly if people persecute you for his name sake and you can still love them, you will be blessed because they are tied to you.
Been away, sorry for delay...
When a priest absolves the penitent, ALL sins are forgiven,,,even those not confessed.

The cc teaches that all sins must be confessed and if one is forgotten it must be confessed as soon as it is remembered. This is true for mortal sins,,,venial sins are forgiven anyway.

The priest is responsible if he forgives a sin which COULD NOT BE FORGIVEN.
Because this is not possible.

I agree with what you said about martyers. Did you know that the cc teaches that they go straight to heaven? (no purgatory for them).

How do a fisherman catch a fish? Sometimes we must be willing to be the "bait" used.

It will be in the end. If someone is tied to you in love, eventually they will have to see how your love for God is personal and then they too will arrive in the kingdom. They will perceive your relationship with Jesus and come to know him too.

It takes time. There are people in Heaven who have ties to people on the earth. God respects those ties, and Heaven will move many things to answer the prayers of the saints in Heaven. Some may think God just makes people "forget" about bad things in Heaven in the following passage' but that is not so. In the end, we shall see how it is:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Some may say God will impose a kind of forgetfulness on people; but God does better than that. He can answer prayers and remove the cause of our sorrows.
I wish you were right,,,but I doubt it. John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES.
Many times I've told my husband not to hang on to my coat tails, ,,
We don't know exactly what Revelation 21:4 means...God could use any method.
It's a different dimension...will we even think about those left behind? (I mean not saved).

Tears are interesting.

Psalm 56:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book?

Angels collect the tears as prayers that cannot be answered immediately. It may take time for them to be answered. When it is time, an angel takes them and offers them to God. Then it is as if God "remembered" them.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The Roman soldiers almost had to be saved because Jesus was willing to forgive them. The Roman Empire was "on the hook" the way a fish is when it crucified Jesus unjustly because Jesus returned love. Anytime a Christian can forgive, returning good for evil, he is going to be rewarded since the other person is "on the hook." A bond has been created between the two that acts almost like a magnet.

Jesus went up to Heaven. The ties of Love remained; and they acted to pull the Apostles up to Heaven, pulling them up, up, up so they could be with Jesus; and as they went up, they also pulled up others who they had established bonds of Love with. Hate is temporary. Love is eternal. It is truer than we may suppose at first. Charity never fails. Isn't God good?
Yes, but the Apostles wanted to go t heaven.
Some don't want to or don't even believe God exists.
Or they believe He exists but they don't LOVE HIM, as you've been much emphasis on.

Can we go by something that is not written anywhere?
The bible or the Early Theologians?
I don't think so.
 

GodsGrace

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The problem arises when the *ignorant anti-Catholics* quote from your own Catechism (or the rulings of Council of Trent which are still in force) and prove from Scripture that the Catholic church teaches false doctrines. Then they are accused of being liars even though the proof is before everyone else.

What Catholics need to do (in all honesty) is begin with the premise that Rome has POSSIBLY been misleading them for ages, therefore they owe it to themselves to search the Scriptures, not the pronouncements from the Vatican. Just as the Pharisees were misleading the Jews, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has been deliberately misleading Christians.
Just came upon the above.
I heard a priest teaching on indulgences a few days ago.
I think the problem is that they're too deep in and cannot say they've taught wrong doctrine....How would anyone ever trust any priest again?

But I do agree with you.
 

GodsGrace

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Kind of, what you said was:


Which seems to cotradict this:

Hi PJ,
I said that adults should be baptized because it is their choice.
I said there is an age of reason when one can understand the things of God.

Then I also said that I know why children were baptized in the early church and that I agree with it and that we do not deny God to children.

You said this is contradictory.

I will clarify....

The problem is that today we do not baptize infants for the same reason as was done in the early church...I could agree to that. Today infants are dedicated to God, and some Protestant churches even baptize them..

BUT NOT AS A BELIEVER.

In The cc church we say that they receive the Holy Spirit,,,,their parents speak for them in denouncing satan... This goes beyond the reasons this was done in the early church.

The reason has to do with Augustine. He promoted the idea that each person born is RESPONSIBLE for Adam's original sin and so babies must have this removed ASAP or, if they die, they are going to hell.

THIS IS WRONG. The church NEVER taught this until Augustine...why they accepted this theory I'll never understand.

I hope this helps...I don't see a conflict in what I believe.




Now as to:


I would say rather, that it does not save unless they continue to grow and walk in the faith they have been given. And yes accepting responsibility (if they are able) for the promises their parents and godparents made on their behalf is part of that.

But thank you for your clarification..

Peace be with you!

Of course I agree with the above. It's what the cc teaches.
I call it "accepting the Holy Spirit" as an understanding person.
The way you state it is even better...
 
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Giuliano

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Been away, sorry for delay...
When a priest absolves the penitent, ALL sins are forgiven,,,even those not confessed.

The cc teaches that all sins must be confessed and if one is forgotten it must be confessed as soon as it is remembered. This is true for mortal sins,,,venial sins are forgiven anyway.

The priest is responsible if he forgives a sin which COULD NOT BE FORGIVEN.
Because this is not possible.

I agree with what you said about martyers. Did you know that the cc teaches that they go straight to heaven? (no purgatory for them).
I think that's right, at least 99.99% of the time. After all fervent charity covers a multitude of sins; and he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I wish you were right,,,but I doubt it. John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES.
Many times I've told my husband not to hang on to my coat tails, ,,
Luke 11:11-13 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

We don't know exactly what Revelation 21:4 means...God could use any method.
It's a different dimension...will we even think about those left behind? (I mean not saved).
What else could they be sorrowful about?

Can we go by something that is not written anywhere?
The bible or the Early Theologians?
I don't think so.
Don't forget Israel was given a written book only after they did not want to hear God's Voice. Jews still read it that way, realizing they need to circumcise their hearts; they use the written words as a stimulus to hear from God.

There was also no commandment for any animal sacrifices until they sinned. The heads of the family ceased to act as priests, and the tribe of Levi took over.

Man seems to have grown darker over time. Abraham didn't need a book. I think many things can can be sorted out if we trust that God is Perfect in His Wisdom, Love and Power. If something makes God look foolish, unloving or weak, it can't be right. The more we can see how God is Perfect, the more we can obey the commandment to love Him.

Holy books and holy men are like fingers pointing to the moon. They serve a purpose if we look up and see the moon. They fail in their purpose if we continue looking at their fingers. Once you've seen the moon, you no longer need anyone to point it out for you.

One of my big objections to theology (both Catholic and Protestant) is that men claim to know but can't get others to know. People are asked to trust them anyway. Someone who really knows also knows how he came to know; and he can steer others along the same path just as Jesus steered his disciples.
 

BreadOfLife

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I think I understand what you're talking about now. People who have died. Thanks for clearing that up. Why didn't you say so to begin with?
I didn't think I HAD to.

Anyway - at least you understand now that this has nothing to do with some "invincible power" that cannot be overcome.
It's simply about overwhelming ignorance to the point of death.
 

BreadOfLife

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Still trying to proselytize a non RC? Why not try reaching the lost through evangelism? (I had never ever had an RC member share the Gospel with me when I was unsaved for 25 years). Maybe the only Gospel they know is to baptize infants...that is always good for growing a State Church. lol
Ummmmm, I was merely addressing YOUR post (#683) about the circumcision of Christ.

Your failure to respond in kind speaks VOLUMES about your total lack of understanding of what this means and how it relates to Baptism, as described by Paul Col. 2:11-12.

Nice job . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Rather TRANSLATION: I am tired of repeating myself and wasting time with an individual set on converting me to his faith. So let's see if he has reached any lost folk with the Gospel instead of sheep stealing.
i was referring to my first 25 years I never stepped inside a church. Not one Roman Catholic shared the Gospel with me.
First of all - I'm NOT trying to "convert" you to anything.

As I told YOU and your anti-Catholic friends on several occasions - I am ONLY here to expose your dishonesty regarding Catholic doctrine so that others reading won't be seduced by your lies.

As for your last lie (in RED) - you must have been asleep for 25 years if you're claiming that "not one Catholic" ever shared the Gospel with you.
Not only is the ENTIRE Mass based on the Gospel of Christ - no less than THREE readings of Scripture are read during the Liturgy of the Word at EACH Mass and are expounded upon during the Homily.

You see - THIS is the kind of dishonesty I'm here to dispel . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I believe the issue was, 'is a person regenerate through water baptism?'.
Your question also enforces a 'no' vote arguing against baptismal regeneration for adults as well.
I would agree on both counts. (infant and adult baptism is not a means of regeneration).
According to the Holy Spirit, speaking through Peter, Baptism is a requirement for regeneration:
Acts 2:39
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And (then) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Then, he goes on to say:
Acts 2:39
"For the promise is for you and for your CHILDREN and for all who are far off, EVERYONE whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

EVERYONE whom the Lord calls to Himself.
God doesn't discriminate (Matt. 19:14) - even if YOU do . . .
 

GodsGrace

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Paul explains baptism clearly in Romans 6. We are baptised into Christ's death. The carnal nature we choose to put to death we then act out that decision by showing sometime rise to lower is into the grave... Symbolically speaking of course... An act a baby cannot choose to do and which sprinkling does not accomplish.
I agree about the baby being baptized.

But, as I've said,,,I'm starting to believe that baptism is more than what we think.
Why would Jesus tell us to be baptized if it's only symbolic?

I don't think it's symbolic.
 
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GodsGrace

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Water Baptism is something MEN CAN OBSERVE...
NO ONE SEES a man receiving a restored soul.
NO ONE SEES a man receiving a new heart, Gods Seed, a reborn spirit.
What difference does it make if men can observe a man's soul being restored?
There are many ways a person can notice a Christian...IF this is what you mean.
One way is by being nice to everyone.
Another way is by going to church...this is a visible sign of one's Christianity.
Probably the best one...

The big picture is....the nature of mankind is SEEING IS Believing. Men can attach the observance of Water Baptism to whatever they want....drowning in death, raised to life...joining the Church...Holy Spirit Baptism....blah, blah.

Water Baptism is a scheduled ceremony....for men to SEE as "witnesses" that that person has become saved and born again.
I see what you mean,,,but I attach no importance to what men see.
It's what God sees that counts...and I repeat again that Jesus didn't say to get baptized so that other could see something. He had other spiritual truths in mind.

The Literal (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), when ONE receiving the Spirit of God WITHIN the person and the rebirth and receiving of Salvation happens PRYOR to the ceremony staged for men to SEE.

Glory to God,
Taken
Agreed.
 

Grailhunter

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What difference does it make if men can observe a man's soul being restored?
There are many ways a person can notice a Christian...IF this is what you mean.
One way is by being nice to everyone.
Another way is by going to church...this is a visible sign of one's Christianity.
Probably the best one...


I see what you mean,,,but I attach no importance to what men see.
It's what God sees that counts...and I repeat again that Jesus didn't say to get baptized so that other could see something. He had other spiritual truths in mind.


Agreed.

The "seeing" thing can be a denomination doctrine. I once saw a preacher baptize a person after explaining it had nothing to do with anything spiritual, or the forgiveness of sins. He explained that it was act of obedience and public display of faith.
 

GodsGrace

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I think that's right, at least 99.99% of the time. After all fervent charity covers a multitude of sins; and he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Luke 11:11-13 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

What else could they be sorrowful about?
It doesn't say WHAT anyone would be sorry about....
Rev 21:4 only says that there will be no sorrow.

Don't forget Israel was given a written book only after they did not want to hear God's Voice. Jews still read it that way, realizing they need to circumcise their hearts; they use the written words as a stimulus to hear from God.

There was also no commandment for any animal sacrifices until they sinned. The heads of the family ceased to act as priests, and the tribe of Levi took over.

Man seems to have grown darker over time. Abraham didn't need a book. I think many things can can be sorted out if we trust that God is Perfect in His Wisdom, Love and Power. If something makes God look foolish, unloving or weak, it can't be right. The more we can see how God is Perfect, the more we can obey the commandment to love Him.

Holy books and holy men are like fingers pointing to the moon. They serve a purpose if we look up and see the moon. They fail in their purpose if we continue looking at their fingers. Once you've seen the moon, you no longer need anyone to point it out for you.

One of my big objections to theology (both Catholic and Protestant) is that men claim to know but can't get others to know. People are asked to trust them anyway. Someone who really knows also knows how he came to know; and he can steer others along the same path just as Jesus steered his disciples.
I have to disagree.
Men can get others to know...isn't this what witnessing is?
Isn't this what teaching our faith is?

The problem with steering others the same way is that we don't all come to God in the same way.

Some get to Him because they hit the bottom of the barrel and need to get out.
Some try the learned way and learn all they can about God to come to some kind of belief in Him.
Some hear from God at the strangest time of their life.

Paul said he was all things to all persons so that he could speak to them directly.
I think this is a good idea.

The basics, however, remain the same.
God exists.
We're sinners going to hell.
We need salvation.
God offers us salvation.
We accept or deny.
 

GodsGrace

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The "seeing" thing can be a denomination doctrine. I once saw a preacher baptize a person after explaining it had nothing to do with anything spiritual, or the forgiveness of sins. He explained that it was act of obedience and public display of faith.
I agree that it's an act of obedience to what Jesus said.
I wouldn't do it as a public display of faith.

Baptism is real. Something happens when we're baptized.
It must be spiritual....it does have something to do with forgiveness of sin..which the Early Fathers believed; and it also has to do with the receiving of power and the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2)
 
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epostle

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Hi PJ,
In The cc church we say that they receive the Holy Spirit,,,,their parents speak for them in denouncing satan... This goes beyond the reasons this was done in the early church.
No, it does not.
The reason has to do with Augustine. He promoted the idea that each person born is RESPONSIBLE for Adam's original sin and so babies must have this removed ASAP or, if they die, they are going to hell.
THIS IS WRONG. The church NEVER taught this until Augustine...why they accepted this theory I'll never understand.
Augustine did not promote new ideas, he developed what was already there (Titus 3:5-7) because the consistent and unanimous teachings on baptism was challenged by heretics. As a side note, Luther taught baptismal regeneration, Calvin denied it. Protestantism is hopelessly divided into 5 major camps on baptism.

“And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God’s earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.”​
Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:24:31 (A.D. 400).

“The blessed Cyprian, indeed, said, in order to correct those who thought that an infant should not be baptized before the eighth day, that it was not the body but the soul which behoved to be saved from perdition — in which statement he was not inventing any new doctrine, but preserving the firmly established faith of the Church; and he, along with some of his colleagues in the episcopal office, held that a child may be properly baptized immediately after its birth.”​
Augustine, Epistle 166:8:23 (A.D. 412).

“This grace, however, of Christ, without which neither infants nor adults can be saved, is not rendered for any merits, but is given gratis, on account of which it is also called grace. ‘Being justified,’ says the apostle, ‘freely through His blood.’ Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’–whether in Adam or in themselves–“and come short of the glory of God.'”​
Augustine, On Nature and Grace, 4 (A.D. 415).
SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM - Scripture Catholic

The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men's understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/authority/an-introduction-to-development-of-doctrine-by-dave-armstrong/
 
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GodsGrace

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No, it does not.
No, it does not WHAT?



Augustine did not promote new ideas, he developed what was already there (Titus 3:5-7) because the consistent and unanimous teachings on baptism was challenged by heretics. As a side note, Luther taught baptismal regeneration, Calvin denied it. Protestantism is hopelessly divided into 5 major camps on baptism.
Augustine developed what was already there.
OK.
Original Sin always existed.
Was it taught by the CC that one was personally RESPONSIBLE for O.S?
Was it taught by the CC that even a baby went to hell if he was not baptized because of this O.S.?

NO!

Perhaps you could quote an ECF that said babies went TO HELL if they were not baptized? This would be BEFORE 325 AD and definitely before Augustine, who changed a lot about the CC and none of which I agree with.

“And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God’s earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.”
Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:24:31 (A.D. 400).

“The blessed Cyprian, indeed, said, in order to correct those who thought that an infant should not be baptized before the eighth day, that it was not the body but the soul which behoved to be saved from perdition — in which statement he was not inventing any new doctrine, but preserving the firmly established faith of the Church; and he, along with some of his colleagues in the episcopal office, held that a child may be properly baptized immediately after its birth.”​
Augustine, Epistle 166:8:23 (A.D. 412).

“This grace, however, of Christ, without which neither infants nor adults can be saved, is not rendered for any merits, but is given gratis, on account of which it is also called grace. ‘Being justified,’ says the apostle, ‘freely through His blood.’ Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’–whether in Adam or in themselves–“and come short of the glory of God.'”​
Augustine, On Nature and Grace, 4 (A.D. 415).

Sorry, but I'm done reading Augustine.
He messed up the church badly, very badly with all his unorthodox beliefs.

As I've requested, WE BOTH KNOW that Augustine CHANGED the church teaching on baptism...you'll have to post something PRE 325 AD.


The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men's understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.
Right.
There's change.
But there's no change.
I got it.

And really, don't post links to me about what the CC teaches.
Not for anything...but I DO believe I know what it teaches.
 
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Philip James

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I once saw a preacher baptize a person after explaining it had nothing to do with anything spiritual, or the forgiveness of sins. He explained that it was act of obedience and public display of faith.

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Peace!
 
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prism

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As for your last lie (in RED) - you must have been asleep for 25 years if you're claiming that "not one Catholic" ever shared the Gospel with you.
Not only is the ENTIRE Mass based on the Gospel of Christ - no less than THREE readings of Scripture are read during the Liturgy of the Word at EACH Mass and are expounded upon during the Homily.
I guess you are much denser than I first imagined. I said for my first 25 years I never stepped into a Church. So how in the world was I to hear a homily, three readings or take part in the Mass?
It took some non Roman Catholic Evangelicals to at least attempt to share the Gospel with me while the Roman Church was too busy doing 'hocus pocus dominocus' with the Mass and infant baptism to give a hoot for the perishing souls outside their four walls.
Good grief!
 

epostle

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No, it does not WHAT?
It does not go beyond the reasons of the early church.

Augustine developed what was already there.
OK.
Original Sin always existed.
Was it taught by the CC that one was personally RESPONSIBLE for O.S?
Never. Original sin is inherited from Adam and Eve, it is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice.
Was it taught by the CC that even a baby went to hell if he was not baptized because of this O.S.?
In the early centuries, the Church did not know the fate of unbaptized babies because it had not been divinely revealed. Now, the Church commends them to the mercy and care of God. The Church has NEVER said who is in hell and who isn't.

Perhaps you could quote an ECF that said babies went TO HELL if they were not baptized? This would be BEFORE 325 AD and definitely before Augustine, who changed a lot about the CC and none of which I agree with.
Why don't you quote Augustine where he departed from the original essence of apostolic teaching, instead of making things up.

Sorry, but I'm done reading Augustine.
Why? Because you have been proven wrong?
He messed up the church badly, very badly with all his unorthodox beliefs.
Why don't you quote Augustine where he departed from the original essence of apostolic teaching, instead of making things up.

As I've requested, WE BOTH KNOW that Augustine CHANGED the church teaching on baptism...you'll have to post something PRE 325 AD.
Development does not mean "change". Augustine did not "change" anything, and you cannot, and have not, proven otherwise.

Right.
There's change.
But there's no change.
I got it.
No, you haven't "got it" at all. Development does not mean "change". It's straightforward denial on your part.
And really, don't post links to me about what the CC teaches.
Not for anything...but I DO believe I know what it teaches.
You believe you know without looking, by your own admission. That's called prejudice.

Most of what you know about Catholicism has been taught to you by liberal Protestants who divide and separate from their own reformers. Links are a valuable tool for explaining Catholicism, because it cannot be adequately expressed by sound bytes, carnival barkers, bumper stickers and T shirts, or even forums. It requires honest investigation and study. These things are anathema to anti-Catholics.