Understanding Romans 6 is critically important

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Davy

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I guess you didn't know that the word pascha in the modern Greek language even refers to Easter. It is no mistranslation, therefore.

No, the Greek word pascha NEVER can mean Easter. You're making that up, or you have been lied to and believed it.

NT:3957
pascha (pas'-khah); of Aramaic origin [compare OT:6453]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 

Zachary

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The real point is, that Saul didn't choose Jesus,
but Jesus chose Saul, even called him His "chosen vessel".
Sorry, a mute point.

God especially CHOSE many to be church leaders!

This does NOT mean (or prove) that ...
He especially chose/elected and called some believers and rejected others.
.
 

justbyfaith

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No, the Greek word pascha NEVER can mean Easter. You're making that up, or you have been lied to and believed it.
I read it on Wikipedia (I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, , my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost).

I'm not sure I would be able to find the exact place where it was written a second time; but it was most assuredly there.
 

justbyfaith

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No, the Greek word pascha NEVER can mean Easter. You're making that up, or you have been lied to and believed it.
So you're saying that the translators of the kjv deliberately lied in their translation, translating it as Easter when it really can only mean Passover.

I don't buy it.

The devil makes this his primary point of contention with the kjv because he is trying to kill two birds with one stone.

He hates the idea of Easter because the resurrection of Christ is what ultimately defeats him.

He would love it if that reference were taken out of every Bible.

Not on my watch.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Noah built the ark, even was able to build the ark, because of the grace of the Lord. A definition of grace is that it is the enabling power of the Lord, even Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because of his faith. He built the ark not in order to obtain more grace, but rather because of the grace that was already given him.

The issue is building the ark (obedience) had to occur before the saving of his house (grace) and the obedient work in building the ark therefore did not earn the saving of his house (grace). Had Noah disobeyed and not built the ark as commanded by God, he and his house would have been lost. Even though it is said Noah had found grace in the eyes of the Lord before he built the ark, he would have been lost having fallen from God's grace had he disobeyed and not built the ark. Therefore being in God's grace is a life-long process and not a one and done unconditional event no matter how one lives his life.


justbyfaith said:
See Philippians 3:9. There is a righteousness which is of the law, and there is a righteousness which is of God by faith.

The point being made is that Psalms 119:172 shows that all God's commandments are righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Those Jews were lost for they would not submit to, would not obey the righteousness of God, that is, that would not obey God's commands since God's commands are righteousness.

Another clear case that obeying God's commands does save and that obedience does not, cannot earn God's free gift of salvation.


justbyfaith said:
God's righteousness amounts to believing on Him...John 6:28-29, Romans 4:5, Romans 4:9.

God's righteousness requires belief (John 8:24) repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) baptism (Mark 16:16) and living faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10).
 

justbyfaith

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Even though it is said Noah had found grace in the eyes of the Lord before he built the ark, he would have been lost having fallen from God's grace had he disobeyed and not built the ark.

The only result would have been that his temporal life wouldn't have been saved. If he had perished in the flood, he would have gone straight to heaven, being a recipient of grace even before he built the ark.

The point being made is that Psalms 119:172 shows that all God's commandments are righteousness.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Those Jews were lost for they would not submit to, would not obey the righteousness of God, that is, that would not obey God's commands since God's commands are righteousness.

The righteousness which is by the law does not save (Philippians 3:1-9). The only righteousness which saves is the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9). This is what it means that they did not submit to the righteousness of God, attempting to establish their own righteousness. They did not seek it by faith; but as it were through the works of the law (see context in Romans 9:30-33).
 
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Davy

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Sorry, a mute point.

God especially CHOSE many to be church leaders!

This does NOT mean (or prove) that ...
He especially chose/elected and called some believers and rejected others.
.

Sorry, but you're mistaken. Jesus does not 'directly' divinely intervene in everyone's life to cause them to 'know' Him.

Since the days of His Apostles, there has been NO Church leader that Jesus revealed Himself directly to like He did with His Apostles and divinely intervening making their choice for them.

The example with Apostle Paul is the best one, because Saul (later named Paul) was on the road to Damascus to HUNT DOWN Christians, and deliver them in chains back to Jerusalem to be tried for heresy. That's when our Lord Jesus struck Saul blind and removed all doubt that Jesus is The Christ. With Christ's other Apostles, He simply met them and told them to follow Him, and they put down what they were doing and followed. It had nothing to do with belief.
 

Davy

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I read it on Wikipedia (I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, , my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost).

I'm not sure I would be able to find the exact place where it was written a second time; but it was most assuredly there.

Anyone can post what they like on Wikipedia. If you're trusting that website for your scholarship you're doing poor scholarship.

Get yourself a descent New Testament Greek Lexicon. A Strong's Exhaustive Concordance would do. It's online too. My BibleSoft software comes with a Strong's and several other Bible language lexicons.


EASTER
(es'-ter) (pascha, from Aramaic paccha' and Hebrew pecach, the Passover festival): The English word comes from the Anglo-Saxon Eastre or Estera, a Teutonic goddess to whom sacrifice was offered in April, so the name was transferred to the paschal feast. The word does not properly occur in Scripture, although the King James Version has it in Acts 12:4 where it stands for Passover, as it is rightly rendered in the Revised Version (British and American). There is no trace of Easter celebration in the New Testament, though some would see an intimation of it in 1 Cor 5:7. The Jewish Christians in the early church continued to celebrate the Passover, regarding Christ as the true paschal lamb, and this naturally passed over into a commemoration of the death and resurrection of Our Lord, or an Easter feast. This was preceded by a fast, which was considered by one party as ending at the hour of the crucifixion, i.e. at 3 o'clock on Friday, by another as continuing until the hour of the resurrection before dawn on Easter morning.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

In case you don't understand the above origin of the word Easter highlighted in red, that word Easter was swapped for the word pascha that is actually in the Greek NT manuscripts (Majority Texts).
 

Davy

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So you're saying that the translators of the kjv deliberately lied in their translation, translating it as Easter when it really can only mean Passover.

I don't buy it.

The devil makes this his primary point of contention with the kjv because he is trying to kill two birds with one stone.

He hates the idea of Easter because the resurrection of Christ is what ultimately defeats him.

He would love it if that reference were taken out of every Bible.

Not on my watch.


EASTER
(es'-ter) (pascha, from Aramaic paccha' and Hebrew pecach, the Passover festival): The English word comes from the Anglo-Saxon Eastre or Estera, a Teutonic goddess to whom sacrifice was offered in April, so the name was transferred to the paschal feast. The word does not properly occur in Scripture, although the King James Version has it in Acts 12:4 where it stands for Passover, as it is rightly rendered in the Revised Version (British and American). There is no trace of Easter celebration in the New Testament, though some would see an intimation of it in 1 Cor 5:7. The Jewish Christians in the early church continued to celebrate the Passover, regarding Christ as the true paschal lamb, and this naturally passed over into a commemoration of the death and resurrection of Our Lord, or an Easter feast. This was preceded by a fast, which was considered by one party as ending at the hour of the crucifixion, i.e. at 3 o'clock on Friday, by another as continuing until the hour of the resurrection before dawn on Easter morning.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

Ignorance is bliss for some folks.
 

justbyfaith

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Get yourself a descent New Testament Greek Lexicon.

Since I am of the opinion that my kjv is sufficient; having been orchestrated by the almighty, sovereign, and loving, hand of the Lord in its bestowal upon us: and that a person can get the unadulterated message of the word of the Lord from the kjv itself, without any necessity of looking back at original languages (which only tends to convolute matters...see 1 Timothy 6:4, 2 Timothy 2:14...through arguments about words)...I feel no need to purchase a New Testament Greek Lexicon, since I can get the understanding of what the scripture teaches simply by reading my Bible in English.

The word (Easter) does not properly occur in Scripture,

Whoever wrote that was doing the bidding of the devil...because, of course, the devil hates the entire concept of Easter, since he was entirely defeated by the resurrection of our Lord.

The devil also hates the kjv and is attempting to kill two birds with one stone in attacking the word Easter in the kjv, falsely claiming that it should not be in the text.

Fact is, it does properly appear in scripture...because the kjv is a proper translation of scripture.

Wikipedia is a valid source of information; and therefore when it tells me that the Greek word pascha is commonly used today in modern koine Greek, in Greece, to refer to the Easter holiday, I believe it.

And I also believe it when it says that Easter was commonly celebrated by the entire Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Which indicates that it may have indeed been being celebrated by certain in the church by the time Acts 12:4 rolled around. After all, Easter is a celebration of Christ's resurrection; and there is no reason why the disciples wouldn't have started celebrating it from day one.
 

Davy

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Since I am of the opinion that my kjv is sufficient; having been orchestrated by the almighty, sovereign, and loving, hand of the Lord in its bestowal upon us: and that a person can get the unadulterated message of the word of the Lord from the kjv itself, without any necessity of looking back at original languages (which only tends to convolute matters...see 1 Timothy 6:4, 2 Timothy 2:14...through arguments about words)...I feel no need to purchase a New Testament Greek Lexicon, since I can get the understanding of what the scripture teaches simply by reading my Bible in English.

Whoever wrote that was doing the bidding of the devil...because, of course, the devil hates the entire concept of Easter, since he was entirely defeated by the resurrection of our Lord.

The devil also hates the kjv and is attempting to kill two birds with one stone in attacking the word Easter in the kjv, falsely claiming that it should not be in the text.

Fact is, it does properly appear in scripture...because the kjv is a proper translation of scripture.

Wikipedia is a valid source of information; and therefore when it tells me that the Greek word pascha is commonly used today in modern koine Greek, in Greece, to refer to the Easter holiday, I believe it.

And I also believe it when it says that Easter was commonly celebrated by the entire Christian church by the middle of the 2nd Century. Which indicates that it may have indeed been being celebrated by certain in the church by the time Acts 12:4 rolled around. After all, Easter is a celebration of Christ's resurrection; and there is no reason why the disciples wouldn't have started celebrating it from day one.


You are grossly deceived.

Easter was a PAGAN FEAST. You need to do more research, or you can stay in ignorance like you're doing now.

And if you don't know how the KJV translators substituted the word Easter for pascha in that Acts 12:4 Scripture, you'll probably go really nuts over the fact that the KJV translators also substituted the name "Lucifer" for the Hebrew word heylel in Isaiah 14:12 which means 'morning star'.

And I'm revealing this to you as an avid 1611 KJV Bible student. That is my main Bible I use. I even have a 1st Edition 1611 KJV in the Old English with side margin notes by the translators, and the Apocrypha books in the back. I'll bet you didn't even know the KJV translators put side margin notes in their original 1st Edition for alternate readings. Later KJV edition printings removed those margin notes by the translators, and the Letter to The Reader, and the letter To King James, Defender of The Faith, and you can ask those printers why (like Nelson's Publishers in Nashville, Tn.).

The Original King James Bible 1611 PDF | Original Bibles
 

justbyfaith

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And if you don't know how the KJV translators substituted the word Easter for pascha in that Acts 12:4 Scripture, you'll probably go really nuts over the fact that the KJV translators also substituted the name "Lucifer" for the Hebrew word heylel in Isaiah 14:12 which means 'morning star'.

Which (the substitution of "morning star" for Lucifer) basically amounts to the teaching that Jesus is satan; and which is a fulfillment of the prophecy found in 2 Peter 2:1-3.

You are grossly deceived.

I do not believe that Jesus is satan as you would have to believe if you actually buy that the NASB and NIV are right in their translation of Isaiah 14:12. So, I am the one who is grossly deceived? Your adamancy in defending those faulty translations leads you to even deny the Lord that bought you.
 

Davy

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Which (the substitution of "morning star" for Lucifer) basically amounts to the teaching that Jesus is satan; and which is a fulfillment of the prophecy found in 2 Peter 2:1-3.

I do not believe that Jesus is satan as you would have to believe if you actually buy that the NASB and NIV are right in their translation of Isaiah 14:12. So, I am the one deceived? Your adamancy in defending those faulty translations leads you to even deny the Lord that bought you.

You simply do not understand analogy at all, do you? Because of that, you've obviously missed a LOT... of teaching from our LORD in His Word, because He uses analogy a lot!

In Isaiah 14:12, God is QUOTING Satan, as Satan wants to be The GOD. Our Heavenly Father is using Satan's own words against him, that is what you are supposed to grasp from the start. But even in the start of Isaiah 14, God points to it as a proverb to the king of Babylon.

The phrases in green is our Heavenly Father quoting Satan's own words.

Isa 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
KJV

So by our Heavenly Father calling Satan the 'morning star' (heylel), which is actual Hebrew word in the OT manuscript, it's really about how Satan covets and WANTS... to be The Morning Star (Jesus).

You should have understood that's why God said that in verse 12 once you understood what Satan said he will do, which God quoted him saying.

And of course, God's answer to what Satan had said? Instead, Satan is going to be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
 

justbyfaith

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No; in the translations that you hold to, God actually calls satan the morning star.

heylel is not accurately translated as morning star; it is more accurately translated as satan's name before he fell from heaven. And to believe otherwise would be a factor in destroying my faith. Been there, done that, had that struggle already. I have found that the solution is to adhere to the kjv's rendering.

Those who adhere to other translations attempt to change the story into something that doesn't even remotely fit the traditional understanding of the fall of the devil and his angels.
 

Davy

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No; in the translations that you hold to, God actually calls satan the morning star.

That's right. The actual Hebrew word in the manuscripts is 'heylel', which means 'morning star'. So why... did the KJV translators swap 'morning star' for "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12?

The word Lucifer is NOT IN THE MANUSCRIPTS. This is why even other Bible versions have anything from 'O Day Star' to 'morning star', etc.

The KJV translators put the note 'O Day Starre' in their side margin of their original 1st Edition 1611 KJV Bible. The idea is 'morning star', so why do you think they INTENTIONALLY put "Lucifer" in their translation instead???

Simple. It's obviously because many would confuse who our Heavenly Father was actually talking about if they had translated it to 'morning star'. It's because WE KNOW JESUS ONLY is The True MORNING STAR (Rev.22). So to stop confusion (like your's), the KJV translators made sure... the reader would know who God was really pointing to, i.e. to Lucifer himself, Satan, the devil, that old serpent.
 

justbyfaith

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And they were right to do so.

However, in adhering to translations that say "morning star", you deny the Lord that bought you, teaching by implication that Jesus is satan.

Even after I told you that believing as you preach it might have the effect of destroying my faith, you continued.

I conclude that you are a wolf-in-sheep's clothing, attempting to destroy the faith of believers. I will be on the lookout for you.
 

Davy

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No; in the translations that you hold to, God actually calls satan the morning star.

You are not listening (or reading in this case here). God was not really calling Satan the 'morning star', but was MOCKING Satan because of Satan wanting to be GOD. It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else besides Jesus Christ to be The Morning Star. Any true... Christian automatically knows that from Revelation 22!
 

Davy

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And they were right to do so.

However, in adhering to translations that say "morning star", you deny the Lord that bought you, teaching by implication that Jesus is satan.

And I say you are a HYPOCRITE, because in your previous posts you mocked me for revealing that the KJV translators put in the word Easter in Acts 14:2 when the actual Greek manuscript word is passover (pashca = always means passover). And now you ADMIT that the KJV translators used "Lucifer" instead of translating the Hebrew word 'heylel' that's actually in the OT manuscript which means 'morning star'.

You are a LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE AND ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.
 

justbyfaith

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It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else besides Jesus Christ to be The Morning Star.

And that is why translating it in Isaiah 14:12 as "morning star" is a faulty translation.

And I say you are a HYPOCRITE, because in your previous posts you mocked me for revealing that the KJV translators put in the word Easter in Acts 14:2 when the actual Greek manuscript word is passover (pashca = always means passover). And now you ADMIT that the KJV translators used "Lucifer" instead of translating the Hebrew word 'heylel' that's actually in the OT manuscript which means 'morning star'.

You are a LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE AND ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

I'm going to pray for you; that the Holy Spirit might convict you and save you. I suppose that is one of the benefits of verbally attacking a true Christian...you obtain the benefit of their prayer for your salvation.

1Co 4:12, And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13, Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14, I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.


In the process of translation, it is not always expedient to transliterate every word.

I believe that in translating the kjv, the kjv translators were under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit; and that therefore, when they translated it in Isaiah 14:12 as "Lucifer" they did so under the guidance and inspiration of God's sovereign hand working in the process of translation.

Now, @Davy, may the Lord abundantly bless you all your days; and may He receive you faithfully as a son. And I really mean that.
 

Davy

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And that is why translating it in Isaiah 14:12 as "morning star" is a faulty translation.

Again, you show ignorance in God's Holy Writ. Lucifer is NOT The Morning Star, ONLY Jesus is.

Rev 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

KJV

Only a devil would believe that Lucifer is The Morning Star.

Your simple mindedness can't even understand why God said that Isaiah 14:12 verse in mocking Satan.

Pray for yourself, asking my Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ for guidance by The Holy Spirit in His Holy Writ. That's what you need to be praying for.