Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

prism said:

It took some non Roman Catholic Evangelicals to at least attempt to share the Gospel with me while the Roman Church was too busy doing 'hocus pocus dominocus' with the Mass and infant baptism to give a hoot for the perishing souls outside their four walls.
Good grief!

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BreadOfLife said:

According to the Holy Spirit, speaking through Peter, Baptism is a requirement for regeneration:
Acts 2:39
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And (then) you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Then, he goes on to say:
Acts 2:39
"For the promise is for you and for your CHILDREN and for all who are far off, EVERYONE whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

EVERYONE whom the Lord calls to Himself.
God doesn't discriminate (Matt. 19:14) - even if YOU do . . .

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epostle said:

It does not go beyond the reasons of the early church.

Never. Original sin is inherited from Adam and Eve, it is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice.
In the early centuries, the Church did not know the fate of unbaptized babies because it had not been divinely revealed. Now, the Church commends them to the mercy and care of God. The Church has NEVER said who is in hell and who isn't.

Why don't you quote Augustine where he departed from the original essence of apostolic teaching, instead of making things up.

Why? Because you have been proven wrong?
Why don't you quote Augustine where he departed from the original essence of apostolic teaching, instead of making things up.

Development does not mean "change". Augustine did not "change" anything, and you cannot, and have not, proven otherwise.

No, you haven't "got it" at all. Development does not mean "change". It's straightforward denial on your part.

You believe you know without looking, by your own admission. That's called prejudice.

Most of what you know about Catholicism has been taught to you by liberal Protestants who divide and separate from their own reformers. Links are a valuable tool for explaining Catholicism, because it cannot be adequately expressed by sound bytes, carnival barkers, bumper stickers and T shirts, or even forums. It requires honest investigation and study. These things are anathema to anti-Catholics.

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Philip James said:

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Peace!

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epostle said:

No, it does not.
Augustine did not promote new ideas, he developed what was already there (Titus 3:5-7) because the consistent and unanimous teachings on baptism was challenged by heretics. As a side note, Luther taught baptismal regeneration, Calvin denied it. Protestantism is hopelessly divided into 5 major camps on baptism.

“And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God’s earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.”​

Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:24:31 (A.D. 400).

“The blessed Cyprian, indeed, said, in order to correct those who thought that an infant should not be baptized before the eighth day, that it was not the body but the soul which behoved to be saved from perdition — in which statement he was not inventing any new doctrine, but preserving the firmly established faith of the Church; and he, along with some of his colleagues in the episcopal office, held that a child may be properly baptized immediately after its birth.”​

Augustine, Epistle 166:8:23 (A.D. 412).

“This grace, however, of Christ, without which neither infants nor adults can be saved, is not rendered for any merits, but is given gratis, on account of which it is also called grace. ‘Being justified,’ says the apostle, ‘freely through His blood.’ Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’–whether in Adam or in themselves–“and come short of the glory of God.'”​

Augustine, On Nature and Grace, 4 (A.D. 415).
SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM - Scripture Catholic

The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men's understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/authority/an-introduction-to-development-of-doctrine-by-dave-armstrong/

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epostle said:

Please refrain from repeated stupid insults, you keep affirming your bigotry.

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Grailhunter said:

Nothing against my Catholic friends here. I respect and love the Catholics. But I am not the first to observe that Augustine had issues, if not mental issues. As far as I am concerned he twisted some of Catholic beliefs. I am sure you have read his life in his own words. He had a problem with morels, self-control, and disciple. So he figured that was normal, and accused all of mankind of the same. The doctrine of Original Sin is not biblical. I can hear Christ saying it now, And hear my words, babies are full of sin! NOT! That would be an issue if it were true. There would be warnings in the Bible not to forget to baptize the babies. Mothers would have been concerned! He imposed his character on the Catholic Church and justified a good part of their atrocities, he twisted the Churches view on reproduction and women. Thomas Aquinas wasn't much better, except he was smarter, but formulated himself in to some wacko thought patterns, especially with females. The Church is still trying to recover from these guys, and quoting them just continues the insanity. I hope the Catholic Church sees better days. I know this sounds pretty rough, but on other topics I will stand with you and defend the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church in the past was corrupt and did some awful things, but that is in the past, the Church today is better than it has ever been, but still working through their issues. The belief that the clergy should be celibate has done nothing but bring sin and disgrace to the Church. As the Church improves, it will move away from the teachings of these two. As far as infant baptism, thumbs up as a christening, but accepting Christ and baptism, that is a choice for an adult.

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GodsGrace said:

Thank you GH.
I could add more but some catholics like to stick their head in the sand and stay there.

The catholic church was considering halting the practice of baptizing babies about 10 years ago. I wonder if our catholic friends here...WHO SEEM TO KNOW EVERYTHING...even know this.

And some love Augustine...
WHY is a good question since he was one of the first important thinkers to ruin this church.

That's all I'll say.
I'm just getting tired of all this ignorance as to their own faith.

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Grailhunter said:

You know I love the Catholics and as I said the Church is better today than ever...and it is going to get better, but not by holding on to Augustine's teachings. I find humor in the fact that the average Catholic Church...community...is better than the Vatican has ever been.

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GodsGrace said:

Ditto here.
And I agree that the church is better today than ever.
Augustine said some beautiful ideas...
but that's about it.
The church went along with him because he was so good at fighting heresy, which was rampant.

Maybe this is why the church can't change....
Some really traditional catholics just won't allow it.
(even though it HAS changed anyway)....
To think that Vat II was about 60 years ago...
and here we are!
Still fighting change.

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Grailhunter said:

South America proves that they can adjust some of those beliefs.

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GodsGrace said:

Some really traditional catholics just won't allow it.

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Enoch111 said:

This is the same old problem as the Pharisees, who elevated the traditions of men above the Word of God, and were soundly rebuked by Christ.

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Grailhunter said:

Enoch, it is not smart to throw rocks at your neighbors glass house, when you are standing in one.

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Enoch111 said:

Can you show me where I am promoting the traditions of men?

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brakelite said:

You don't think God is so merciful and gracious that he would not accept that you lived fully in accordance to the best light you had at the time? That He led you elsewhere may not have been to save you, but to enlighten you more to where you stood. And He is still calling His people to "come out of her".

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GodsGrace said:

Prism happens to be right.

You must be one of those catholics that reads the CCC and goes to some bible study and thinks they know everything about the catholic church. You make up your very own ideas about change and Augustine and the early church.

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How come you didn't post any ECFs?
Because you cannot.
Because THEY didn't believe babies went to hell if they didn't get baptized...
because that's not why they were baptized.

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There's so much wrong with your previous post, I can't even take the time to reply to it.

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I hope you realize that @prism is right because most catholics just go to church by rote...some go to confession by rote...and some don't even do that and receive even if they're in mortal sin.

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So, most do not know what YOU know, for whatever reason.
It sure isn't because of what you hear at Mass,,,although, I will say that every cc is different and maybe you're one of the few lucky ones.

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Grams said:

According to the C. Church I went to NO! I had to go to confession all the time to have my sins
taken away........ And as soon as I left the church I never felt saved...... I took communion and
felt bad for a long time....

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epostle said:

Please refrain from repeated stupid insults, you keep affirming your bigotry.

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Grailhunter said:

I did not think I missed it. Is the name of your denomination "Bible Church"

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prism said:

My comment still stands..
"It took some non Roman Catholic Evangelicals to at least attempt to share the Gospel with me while the Roman Church was too busy doing 'hocus pocus dominocus' with the Mass and infant baptism to give a hoot for the perishing souls outside their four walls. Good grief!"

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